One card to consider is Terminus. That is a problem we need to deal with. A couple of small bodies might provoke it, which suddenly makes them very relevant to our gameplan. The same holds true when one wants to deal with Jace (or at least keep him off ult'ing). I think Tracker plays an important role here since it's pretty aggressive @3 power and a case can perhaps be made for Qasali Pridemage. GSZ into kicking Jace in the nuts and threatening to blow up Counterbalance when your opponent looks at you funny sounds helpful.
A plus for Courser when compared to Tracker is that it's Lightning Bolt-proof and can block some stuff Tracker can't for days.
I'm following your lead on GSZ as manipulation, by the way.
I don't think the Miracles matchup is one we can out-threat pre-sideboard.
They generally have 14-18 "hard" removal spells:
- 4 Terminus
- 4 Force
- 4 Swords
- 1 Council's Judgment
- 1-2 Counterspell
- 0-3 Snapcaster
We can't get our threats against Miracles that high before Sideboard - we're going to need to side in Slaughter Games.
The best solution for the little creatures plan would be to treat them similarly to how you ran Phyrexian Tower, and have each creature that doesn't threaten to end the game fast count as 0.5 finisher. So if the spread is, for example:
4 GSZ
1 Sigarda
2 Rhino
1 Sorin
1 Tracker
---
9 'full' finishers
2 Deathrite
1 Witness
1 Courser
1 QPM
---
2.5 'slow' finishers
Putting us on a 11.5. Just as an example.
I like your approach!
To recap everything so far:
Requirements:
- Must be able to go over the top of most opponents
- Must be able to handle/mitigate mana denial strategies
- Must be able to break through lock pieces
- Must be able to handle opposing threats on the board
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce green mana on turn 1
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce black mana on turn 1
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce white mana on turn 2
- No card may cost >6 mana
- No card may have triple mana of any 1 colour in its manacost
- GSZ'able cards must have intrinsic value
- Creatures must either provide mandatory utility effects, be very hard to kill or have a very high power/mana ratio
- Ramp slots may not cost >2 mana
We lose:
- Against quick combo.
- When our threats get dealt with (looking at you miracle).
- When the opponent goes bigger.
- When the opponent disrupt the explorer plan so that we play a slow deck that dies to Daze
Suggested mana curve:
17 CMC 1 cards
10 CMC 2 cards
5 CMC 3 cards
4 CMC 4 cards
2 CMC 5 cards
1 CMC 6 card
Updated slot distribution:
21-22 land
15/16 interaction/removal
8-10 library manipulation/filtering
6-8 CA
14 ramp (be a little liberal when it comes to these)
12 finishers
With the redefinition of our finishers category we can lower that number a bit.
Projecting the list I have so far:
19-20 lands
2 Phyrexian Tower - 1 ramp slot
4 GSZ - 4 library manipulation/card selection, 4 ramp and 4 finisher slots
4 Veteran Explorer - 4 ramp slots
3 Deathrite Shaman - 3 ramp slots and 1.5 finisher slots
1 Dryad Arbor - 1 ramp slot
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder - 1 ramp slot
4 Cabal Therapy - 4 interaction/removal slots
3 Pernicious Deed - 3 interaction/removal and 3 CA slots
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis - 1 interaction/removal, 1 CA and 1 finisher slot
1 Tireless Tracker - 1 CA and 1 finisher slot
1 Eternal Witness - 1 card selection, 0.5 finisher
1 Courser of Kruphix - 1 card selection, 0.5 finisher
This fills:
14 ramp slots
8.5 finisher slots
5 CA slots
6 card selection/library manipulation slots
8 removal/interaction slots
With 24 cards + 21/22 lands. So that's 15/16 cards to go, with these slots to fill:
3.5 finisher
3-5 card selection/library manipulation
1-3 CA
7/8 removal/interaction
I want to add 1 QPM for some utility vs. Miracles and assorted other stuff (worst case scenario it's a 3/3 beater for 2 mana) and we've been building towards 4 SDT, which is pure library manipulation. This brings us at:
19-20 lands
2 Phyrexian Tower - 1 ramp slot
4 GSZ - 4 library manipulation/card selection, 4 ramp and 4 finisher slots
4 Veteran Explorer - 4 ramp slots
3 Deathrite Shaman - 3 ramp slots and 1.5 finisher slots
1 Dryad Arbor - 1 ramp slot
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder - 1 ramp slot
4 Cabal Therapy - 4 interaction/removal slots
3 Pernicious Deed - 3 interaction/removal and 3 CA slots
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis - 1 interaction/removal, 1 CA and 1 finisher slot
1 Tireless Tracker - 1 CA and 1 finisher slot
1 Eternal Witness - 1 card selection, 0.5 finisher slot
1 Courser of Kruphix - 1 card selection, 0.5 finisher slot
1 Qasali Pridemage - 1 interaction/removal slot, 0.5 finisher slot
4 Sensei's Divining Top - 4 library manipulation/card selection slots
For:
14 ramp slots
9 finisher slots
5 CA slots
10 card selection/library manipulation slots
9 removal/interaction slots
With 10/11 cards left and
3 finisher
1-3 CA
6/7 removal/interaction
to go.
At this point Courser of Kruphix is no longer mandatory, as that'd leave us wanting for 0-1 card selection/library manipulation slots and another 0.5 finisher. If needed, Courser can be replaced for another card.
Last edited by Echelon; 04-26-2016 at 07:24 AM.
just a short interjection to the SG discussion. my first round this weekend was unfortunately the mirror and game two he SG the rhinos and I was like F*** u.
pages ago I asked u exactly that question and it prompt happened to me, wow.
so in my opinion the win conditions (full+slow finishers) have to be spread on more shoulders, I think I will cut at least one rhino and add baneslayer even though I can't dig it.
I know u discussed the different meanings of the distribution list but what exactly in included in every point?
21-22 land
15/16 interaction/removal (m.pulse, vindicate, abzan charm, cabal therapy, pte / but do u also count drs and scooze for example as they interact?)
8-10 library manipulation/filtering (vex, e witness, sakura, gsz?, top, tracker? and even fetch lands?)
6-8 CA (e. witness, truths, abzan charm)
14 ramp (vex, sakura, drs, gsz?)
12 finishers
sorry if I missed the definition but I think it would be helpful to define the different points to make it easier for everybody posting a deck and mentioning the split.
for me it is very interesting to see how many different roles our cards can play.
FOUND IT:
- Ramp: cards which, when drawn in the top 8 cards of the deck, allow us access to 4+ mana by turn three.
- Interaction: cards which provide ways of removing the opponent's threats, whether from the hand or the battlefield.
- Finisher: cards which either present a <=5 turn clock (i.e reliably swing for 4+) or uninteractable damage (i.e. DRS, Sorin), or both.
- Library manipulation: cards which get cards from our deck or graveyard into our hand faster than our natural draw, or give us selection.
but we could add graveyard to the interaction -> drs, scooze
Alright, I'm finishing this list. I'm choosing a 22 land manabase to make the most use of the Veteran Explorers and Sakura-Tribe Elder, so that leaves me 10 cards.
I need to fill:
3 finisher
1-3 CA
6/7 removal/interaction
For removal, I'm picking 6 Abrupt Decay/Path to Exile. The CA card becomes a Meren of Clan Nel Toth, since she has some affinity with a number of the cards we currently run. 3 cards to go. Courser of Kruphix goes out, since we need more high end meat. Those 4 cards become 3 Siege Rhino and 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons.
The finished list, sorted by card type and CMC:
Creatures (17)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Artifacts (4):
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Sorceries & instants (16):
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
Enchantments (1):
3 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers (1):
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Lands (22):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
I'm missing a card. Counting is hard. Oh well. Since we've filled all necessary slots this can be anything from Scavenging Ooze to Vindicate to another Siege Rhino, the Courser we dropped or the Painful Truths we didn't manage to fit in. Meren could be swapped out for another Painful Truths to keep things streamlined.
Is it just me or is this by-the-numbers build pretty much what we normally run..? The only difference here being that we run a full 4 SDT. OMG, FFS lol. The one thing we have learned is that we're free to switch up finisher-only cards as we see fit. If at some point we deem it necessary to lower the number of Siege Rhinos to incorporate more planeswalkers to combat Miracles, we can do so without problem.
It does put the "those numbers are too high", "there aren't enough viable cards in that category" and "you're going to have to play subpar cards" pleads into perspective though. No balls, no glory and Siege Rhino prevails.
Last edited by Echelon; 04-26-2016 at 08:49 AM.
The list you have fits things, true, but there are still a few things I'm not certain about.
- 4 Tops: Painful Truths might want to take one of these slots. Filtering vs. straight Draw. Tops are a little awkward in multiples, but I guess we can always put one on top and shuffle it away.
- I still think the number of ramp cards you're playing is too high. What odds would you be comfortable with for getting a ramp card in your opener? 80%? 90%?
- I think we should look into the other two lists - the ones which swap out Meren/Arbor for either Stoneforges or Planeswalkers.
Courser is really selection and advantage. Combined with Tracker or Top it's advantage, combined with GSZ and shuffles it's selection.Originally Posted by Echelon
I'm trying my flex slots out as Dark Confidants. They work well with top, are pure advantage, hit hard enough to end the game (anything 2+ power does really), and are just as non GSZ'able as a Painful Truths, except Bob also makes my opponent use a removal spell, which makes everything else more likely to survive. So far they haven't been all that impressive but I don't think I'm using them right. I find they almost always die instantly, but I think that's a sequencing problem on my end.
Didn't we want to be @4 Tops b/c of consistency?
The ramp portion is fine. It helps you power out the good stuff, draw cards off Tracker and sink mana in Tops. It'll get you to the late game more quickly and helps you filter once you get there. This just is the point where that particular list needs to go from theory to real games. I won't get to play in the forseeable future so I fear this falls on someone else.
Looking into those other two lists is fine by me. Let's have it.
We want the Top slot to be a consistency tool, but it doesn't necessarily have to be Top. Going from three to four tops increases our odds of getting one early (first 10 cards) from 47% to 52%. Might be worth it, considering we can shuffle it away pretty easily if we get a second.
I understand what the ramp cards do, I just don't think the % of games where we draw triple-vet/ste is worth the inclusion of the fifth one (or maybe even the fourth). Particularly when even with just 3 vets and 4 gsz, we still have very high odds of getting one in the first few turns, and we have enough 2-drops etc to get by without them in a lot of matchups. It's not like we need the ramp to play our interaction cards (other than Deed).
We can either shuffle it away (since it can place itself on top of the library) or bait out a Daze/FoW with it to clear the way to other stuff.
What we can use that ramp for is to power out big threats quickly, which can cause all sorts of havoc for our opponent. Opening a hand with 3 Explorers/Tribe Elders seem like good times to me. That's the kind of opener that leads to T2 Sigarda or T3 Sorin.
4 SDT seems excessive, 2-3 seems like the sweet spot, for me at least. I agree with painful truths being raw CA that we need in some situations.
@Echelon: I read your comment a page or so back that was thoroughly assaulting me on a personal level and I thought about it before responding. I am not sure what you thought when you felt that was ok to say but know that I wasn't personally attacking you. I was being sarcastic and don't use "Connotation isn't inherent over the internet" because I am consistently sarcastic. Then to go immediately after Rubble when he is probably one of the most positive personalities on this thread is not acceptable. Your outburst is totally uncharacteristic of the understanding culture we have cultivated in this thread. We meaning each and every person that has contributed to this deck. I understand you and others are working hard on your goal to make the deck better through the means you best understand and I would never stifle that.
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
I came here to party and resolve prime time triggers.
"Well, I ain't calling you a truther." -Josh
IMGUR:http://ricardio69.imgur.com/all/
Thank you darling, I have always known you had a thing for me. I do reciprocate your sentiment, really.
I am probably stupid but what does it mean "card x is a 0.5 ramp card" etc etc?
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Siege Rhino
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
1 Painful Truths
1 Abzan Charm
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower or Stronghold
1 Karakas
lands: 21
interactions/removal: 16 (2*0,5 drs, 0,5 scooze, 1 vindicate, 1 abzan, 4 cabal therapy, 3*0,5 p deed, 4 abrupt decay, 3 pte)
library/ca: 15 (4*0,5 vex, 1 e witness, 0,5 sakura, 4 gsz, 1 p truths, 1 abzan, 3*0,5 deed, 3 top, 1 t tracker)
ramp: 11 (4 vex, 1 sakura, 2 drs, 4 gsz)
finisher: 13 (3 siege,2*0,5 drs, 1 sigarda, 4 gsz, 1 baneslayer, 1 scooze, 1 t tracker)
I stick to the 21 lands because I didn't face any mana issues so far.
0,5 drs and scooze interaction/removal because they interact with the graveyard basically every game.
0,5 vex and sakura because they shuffle the bib only and we lose a creature.
0,5 p deed removal and CA because it isn't a spot removal but 'interacts/removes' the board completely.
0,5 drs finisher because it is very slow and easy to remove.
to be honest I didn't test Sorin nor abzan but I like the synergies they have that is why I will definitely start testing them.
I read your concerns abt abzan but I want to try it. I guess it will be the second painful truths or maelstrom pulse if it is underwhelming.
CMC:
1: 14
2: 6
3: 8
4: 3
5: 2
I don't like the 3 and 2 split but as Echelon already said it seems the list ends up the same as before except a few 'new' cards like tracker and sorin.
really looking forward to your comments.
How is poring over numbers, theories and statistics to make a deck better NOT a labor of love? Echelon nailed it when he said sticking your head in the sand isn't going to solve anything. Yes, jamming Ajani, Mentor of heroes is cool. So is winning and taking this deck up a level.
Exactly. It's akin to a child being told something they don't want to hear so they cup their ears with their hands and shout nonsense.
Personally assaulting you, seriously?
Echelon, among others, work tirelessly on this deck and have been for a long time. Whether you agree or disagree with what they're saying is another thing, and you can discuss that. But don't bash well thought out posts by proclaiming that they're 'losing the Nic Fit way' or whatever is going through your head. Back up your arguments with actual lists, testing, data or results.
In general, it means the card fills the role but it doesn't fill it well. For example, Phyrexian Tower is a ramp card but it can't accelerate you early, if your opening is a Top or Therapy you can't use Phyrexian Tower, and if you have to Tower away a DRS you're also giving up some mana in future turns in exchange for more mana now.
An example here could be Courser of Kruphix, as a ramp card it probably does help accelerate you to 5 or 6 mana (depending on your hand), but that's just through making more land drops rather than true acceleration. Courser will never allow you to have more mana on hand than the turn number.
GSZ could be another .5 ramp card because while a GSZ for 0 turns on Dryad Arbor or for 1 turns on Veteran Explorer (if you can sac it), ideally you want GSZ to turn into a threat rather than an enabler for a threat.
Basically, it's saying that the card fills the role but at a lower degree of efficiency. Back to the Courser example, at several points I've mentioned it's worth .35 cards. In this case that's derived mathematically as 22 lands/61 cards, and that same math makes it being worth more with Top. In this case it's quantifying value, where as something like Bob is worth a flat 1 card/turn, and Tracker is worth a lot of cards (the verdict on how many is still out, but I'm sticking to my earlier description that it's a 4-5 power Ancestral Vision).
The biggest problem I've seen with drawing two is that while you can eventually shuffle them away, it's a long term plan to do so. It's a rare game where I've found myself able to shuffle away a Top in the first say 4-5 turns. At that point it's a dead draw. That said, I think that having the backup is still worth it, we're very reliant on shuffle effects and the opponent destroying our top in response to a shuffle is usually the best way to use your second early. I find Abrupt Decays really like to hit them since we have so few other targets (especially since people haven't figured out how strong Tracker is yet).
Thank you so much!
E: btw, isn't tracker a nonbo with deed?
Back to the SE Fit idea, a page ago we were discussing cutting Rhino and Sigarda. I think that's wrong if we're in white, but is white actually the best third color to hit our deck specifications? We also have the options of straight GB (enables Hymn), Red (no Slaughter Games splash, Huntmaster, many other RG cards), and Blue (expensive duals, lower threat count, maybe FoW, actual cantrips).
In Blue I wonder about some sort of Shardless BUG/Nic Fit cross, where we could use Agent/Strix to generate value (bet blue could get a 21 creature list where everything is CA) and gain some actual Brainstorms rather than going through so many hoops to get a similar effect and greatly improves combo matchups.
Red on the other hand enables some reach in Bolt, a non splash Slaughter Games, Huntmaster as another beefy 4 drop, Domri Rade as CA, removal, and a finisher (and it gains from Top), and so on, maybe even Bloodbraid with Top manipulation. I bet Miracles would have a hell of a time between Slaughter Games and Xenagos, God of Revels. Maybe even some version of Punishing Fit, that's an archetype I've never played but I could see it working with this model though Punishing Fit might be one too many mana sinks. It's certainly a good option for CA though, it even opens up REB as another SB option for interaction against combo.
Last edited by Brael; 04-26-2016 at 01:24 PM.
NP.
In theory, Tracker is a nonbo with deed but in practice I'm not seeing it to be an issue. In a similar vein of things, Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman are also both nonbos but it doesn't stop us because the upside of the cards is just so high.
What I'm finding is I can usually pop Deed at 2 and have Tracker dodge it. The clue tokens can be wiped out, but I've had so much CA lately that I'm using my clues quickly. They're a very good mana sink (and I've been lowering my curve so I can use more sinks) and really just cracking a single clue puts you ahead. Getting the opportunity to crack several just puts you way ahead.
There's also a bit of sequencing in play here. If you need an early Deed you're probably playing it, using it, and then following up the turn after with Tracker. I haven't run into a situation yet where I need to Tracker, get clues, and then use Deed.
I'd cut myself before I cut Sigarda.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
14 threats
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
17 staples/removal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
6 Filter and Draw
2 Sorin, Grim Vampire-Person
2 Control Walkers
22 Lands
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
61 total. I'd consider cutting a Heath for another Painful Truths, or Vindicate.
Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons or Garruk Relentless (I feel like Sigarda #2, Tao may disagree, but I'd just want to increase my frequency).
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsunami
1 From the Ashes
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vindicate/Sorin
1 Open (combo hate, likely)
My reasoning is as follows:
Maindeck isn't very different. Whatever. Vindicate could take the place of a Sorin, but whatever works for ya. Safekeeper is something to try to help Rhinos get through the STP.decks. Is it amazing? No, but it is hard to beat. Plus, it games well against Combo with Teeg.
Sideboard is for the following reasons:
Thoughtseize for Combo. Need dat interaction and to give you time. Let's be real - we're slow as fuck.
Teeg for Miracles, Combo, assorted flavours of bullshit. I agree, shutting down GSZ is a pain in the ass, but sometimes, you need him.
Control piece - Sigarda #2 is there for Miracles and the Liliana.deck. She's gameover against all the midrangey bullshit in the format, and does wonders against Miracles. I don't see a second copy as a problem, especially if one gets countered. Could also just be a Relentless, that's for testing to decide. Relentless is far less fragile, but worse against stuff like Jace/Liliana. Sigarda can break you being behind against onboard Jace AND Liliana. Garruk cannot.
Sweep - I foresee a Port reprinting in Eternal Masters, so every person who wanted to get into Legacy might try DnT. Toxic is never bad, and Charm has a little bit more use and a bit faster against, say, Elves. It's two cards to shore up matchups that are probably still favourable, but I'd never want to lose.
Tsunami as the control breaker.
From the Ashes as your trump to Eldrazi. I split this with Tsunami since From the Ashes is only meh against Miracles. Ruination might be better so you have two options, but whatever.
Needles for Jace, Sneak, Grizzle, Batterskull, or whatever. I don't care. Needle good.
Didn't get room for the Vindicate main, so here it is. Could be main instead of a Sorin, we'll see.
Open slot for either combo hate, or a Grip or something.
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