Miracle Control

[twndomn]

Today i play Vs big eldrazi deck (ulamog, kozilek ecc..) i lose 0 2..matchup is very hard

Typically, when we say Eldrazi, we meant Eldrazi aggro. As in, it uses Thought-knot and Reality Smasher.

The opponent your ran into is Colorless Eldrazi Ramp. It's more like MUD, and it's uncommon. It uses Key and Thran dynamo to ramp up to cast the New Kozelik, the Great Distortion, which would enable him to draw more Eldrazi. To be honest, this build is much closer toward the UG 12 Post, so I would just let it go.

[ESG]

Voltaic key, huh? Pretty sure that's banned in Legacy. :P

I haven't seen anyone play it in years and years.

...

Join Date:
Apr 2016

Welcome to Legacy, where Voltaic Key is not as good as it seems.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's bad with Metalworker and Monolith b/c of Chalice of the Void. It's also bad because pithing needle and Revoker. Also, Time Vault is why it's good, and its banned from Legacy.

[alphastryk]

Played a Predict list in a local GPT for Columbus yesterday, felt really solid. Went 3-1-1 (Beat Merfolk, lost to Sneak&Show, Beat UW Thopter Control, beat RUG Control, drew with Elves, then lost to MUD in top8).

I've been having consistent trouble with Sneak and Show lately, and I'm wondering if that's just an inherent weakness of the cantrip-heavy builds, or if I'm doing something wrong? (Low sample size too, I could just be getting unlucky)

List for reference:

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ponder
2 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

Sideboard:
1 Batterskull
1 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
2 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear

Boarding looked something like: -1 Plains, -4 Terminus, -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Spell Snare | +2 Vendilion Clique, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Containment Priest, +1 Council's Judgment.

Should I be bringing in the Stoneforge Package to have an early threat? I have more cards I want to take out than stuff to bring in which is a red flag to me.

[CutthroatCasual]

I think cantrip-heavy builds definitely are weaker against SnT decks.

As a hedge, I play 1 Clique and 1 Karakas main, in addition to Spell Pierce which often hits what I want it to hit.

I don't think SnS cares that you have an SFM/Bskull since they only need to worry about 1 threat sticking. If you're finding you're taking out more, then leave in some number of Terminus just in case you find yourself in a situation where you can make sure it resolves (i.e. They SnT through a Boseiju so your FoW is still sitting in your hand.)

What is CJ for?

[alphastryk]

I think cantrip-heavy builds definitely are weaker against SnT decks.

As a hedge, I play 1 Clique and 1 Karakas main, in addition to Spell Pierce which often hits what I want it to hit.

I don't think SnS cares that you have an SFM/Bskull since they only need to worry about 1 threat sticking. If you're finding you're taking out more, then leave in some number of Terminus just in case you find yourself in a situation where you can make sure it resolves (i.e. They SnT through a Boseiju so your FoW is still sitting in your hand.)

What is CJ for?

Yeah, that all makes sense. I'll probably have to make some tweaks if people keep playing SnT locally.

CJ is for the same reason you're suggesting leaving in Terminus, with the upside of being a 3 for Counterbalance. It's not great, but I don't have anything better.

[CutthroatCasual]

Wear//Tear seems good against that enchantment. And they might even bring in Pithing Needle to name Karakas/Top/whatever.

[Echinoderm]

Yeah, that all makes sense. I'll probably have to make some tweaks if people keep playing SnT locally.

CJ is for the same reason you're suggesting leaving in Terminus, with the upside of being a 3 for Counterbalance. It's not great, but I don't have anything better.

Some people board out Entreat. Council's judgment is also decent, considering some list play Pithing Needle, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Omniscience against you games 2 and 3. Doesn't hurt that it hits sneak and show, either.

[twndomn]

I've been having consistent trouble with Sneak and Show lately, and I'm wondering if that's just an inherent weakness of the cantrip-heavy builds, or if I'm doing something wrong? (Low sample size too, I could just be getting unlucky)

The real SB hate-bear against combo in general is Not Containment priest, it's Canonist.

Instead of focusing on cantrip-heavy builds, the difference is Karakas and Clique. It's not just Show and Tell decks, has impact against Reanimator and Storm as well. Narrow in on Sneak and Show MU, they cannot win outright if you have both Karakas + needle in play. They have to deal with either permanents via Blood Moon or Wipe Away first. Yes, we want as much interaction on the stack as possible, Entreat is useless in most scenarios, other than flipping it against Show and Tell when you already have CB in play.

Here is a small corner case: Supreme Verdict. It's another CMC 4 card you can flip via CB against Sneak Attack. In the case your opponent manages to get one fatty into play Not via Sneak Attack, Verdict can buy you turns regardless they draw 7 or not.

[alphastryk]

The real SB hate-bear against combo in general is Not Containment priest, it's Canonist.

Instead of focusing on cantrip-heavy builds, the difference is Karakas and Clique. It's not just Show and Tell decks, has impact against Reanimator and Storm as well. Narrow in on Sneak and Show MU, they cannot win outright if you have both Karakas + needle in play. They have to deal with either permanents via Blood Moon or Wipe Away first. Yes, we want as much interaction on the stack as possible, Entreat is useless in most scenarios, other than flipping it against Show and Tell when you already have CB in play.

Here is a small corner case: Supreme Verdict. It's another CMC 4 card you can flip via CB against Sneak Attack. In the case your opponent manages to get one fatty into play Not via Sneak Attack, Verdict can buy you turns regardless they draw 7 or not.

Canonist and Verdict are fine cards, but not super helpful for Sneak and Show in particular. Personally I'm still a huge fan of Meddling Mage vs combo, I just have trouble finding room for all the sideboard cards I want, which is a general issue of the cantrip-heavy builds that have pushed Clique into those sideboard slots instead of the maindeck. The right 'middle ground' answer is probably to cut Predict to move the Cliques main, then add appropriate hatebears to the 2 new sideboard slots. I just don't want to get too hungup on beating my local store's ~25 person metagame, I'd rather have a list that's ready for a bigger field so I'm comfortable with my choices before the GP in June, considering I only get to play once or twice a month these days.

[Quasim0ff]

Canonist and Verdict are fine cards, but not super helpful for Sneak and Show in particular. Personally I'm still a huge fan of Meddling Mage vs combo, I just have trouble finding room for all the sideboard cards I want, which is a general issue of the cantrip-heavy builds that have pushed Clique into those sideboard slots instead of the maindeck. The right 'middle ground' answer is probably to cut Predict to move the Cliques main, then add appropriate hatebears to the 2 new sideboard slots. I just don't want to get too hungup on beating my local store's ~25 person metagame, I'd rather have a list that's ready for a bigger field so I'm comfortable with my choices before the GP in June, considering I only get to play once or twice a month these days.

A sideboard that beats up on combo, while maintaining the cantrip heavy maindeck:
1 Clique maindeck.

Sideboard:
3x ReB/Pyro
2x Flusterstorm
2x Wear/Tear
2x Clique (3 in total)
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Containment Priest
1x Engineered Explosves
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Blood Moon.

That sideboard is excellent.

[MiraclesWizard]

anyone see Joe Lossett's stream last night with Legends Miracles....he tossed in 2 Nahiri's and -1 Jace and -1 Council's Judgement.....thoughts? It was interesting

[kentheide]

anyone see Joe Lossett's stream last night with Legends Miracles....he tossed in 2 Nahiri's and -1 Jace and -1 Council's Judgement.....thoughts? It was interesting

Post-sideboard or main?

[CutthroatCasual]

Which Nahiri? If the one, that just's silly since that card doesn't synergize with anything in the deck.

If the one, well a good Legacy player once told me that our non-land permanents should be able to win us the game. I don't see how she does that more effectively than Jace. That Nahiri is better suited to a Blade-style deck. Now, some SBs like to play the Blade package, so she would likely do better in those builds. But I don't recall seeing the Blade package in Joe's most recent list.

CJ is a flex card, though one that I would rather have somewhere in the 75 than not.

[MiraclesWizard]

Which Nahiri? If the one, that just's silly since that card doesn't synergize with anything in the deck.

If the one, well a good Legacy player once told me that our non-land permanents should be able to win us the game. I don't see how she does that more effectively than Jace. CJ is a flex card, though one that I would rather have somewhere in the 75 than not.

it was the

[Wotkenmendo]

I missed it, but the replay is still unmuted if you go to his twitch stream!

Edit: I would also assume it was mostly for fun.

[MiraclesWizard]

I missed it, but the replay is still unmuted if you go to his twitch stream!

Edit: I would also assume it was mostly for fun.

i know he was trying to get rid of council's judgement to avoid double plains in the mb and go back to a double cavern and mentor setup.

[Stefanogs]

Maybe he's testing a planeswalker that is immune to REB effets (nahiri). However, i think that Keranos is a better option with Cavern of Souls.

[venice]

I did not watch the stream either but a friend of mine is testing 1 Nahiri, 1 Emrakul as new "tech". Tick her up 2 times, go fetch Emrakul and smash with haste. Not that I think that this is good but maybe Joe was experimenting with something similar.

[MiraclesWizard]

i think he was goofing around, but still interesting to say the least....