[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Jain_Mor]

Oath and Traverse can both fetch Shriekmaw, it helps get delirium and it's fantastic manasink/card advantage card that hits nearly all creatures (especially eldrazi) except DRS, angler, strix and TNN (though it does attack past it!) and it synergises like crazy with Meren...

I'm Gnna brew a GBx list that abuses these cards

[Echelon]

Oath and Traverse can both fetch Shriekmaw, it slow get delirium and it's fantastic manasink/card advantage card that hits nearly all creatures (especially eldrazi) except DRS, angler, strix and TNN (though it does attack past it!) and it synergises like crazy with Meren...

I'm Gnna brew a GBx list that abuses these cards

Someone's totally making my day...

Try to add in a Fierce Empath and Karador, Ghost Chieftain (Karador works with Shriekmaw too). Quite possibly Sakura-Tribe Elder and Qasali Pridemage. A couple of Phyrexian Towers, Meren, Siege Rhinos, Dryad Arbor, Eternal Witness to loop stuff like PtE/AD/Pernicious Deed/Painful Truths.

In the meantime I'll try and see if I can fit matts' package in a list.

Edit: The matt package list:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Painful Truths
2 Sylvan Library
1 Skeletal Scrying

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

[Jain_Mor]

Someone's totally making my day...

Try to add in a Fierce Empath and Karador, Ghost Chieftain (Karador works with Shriekmaw too). Quite possibly Sakura-Tribe Elder and Qasali Pridemage. A couple of Phyrexian Towers, Meren, Siege Rhinos, Dryad Arbor, Eternal Witness to loop stuff like PtE/AD/Pernicious Deed/Painful Truths.

Lol cannot make it fit at all. 4 Oath 4 Traverse 4 GSun 4 Therapy is already 16 cards. Shriekmaw and Qasali can take place of Path/Decay, but you still want deed, and then thats like 18-20 non creature, non land, non planeswalker cards which gives you a 3% chance of your oaths missing... no good. If only it fetched enchantments instead of, or as well as planeswalkers, how different this world would be.

So you could do something like this, but it looks baaaaad and runs no instants or deeds..

4 Oath
4 Traverse
4 Gsun
4 Therapy

4 Vet
1 DRS
1 STE
1 Qasali
4 Shriekmaw
1 Tracker
1 Ewit
1 Meren
2 Rhino
1 Sigarda

2 Liliana
1 Garruk
1 Elspeth
1 Ob Nixilis
1 Vraska
1 Sorin

and 20 lands. but yeeaaa looks awful.

[Echelon]

OMG what an abomination, lol.

Kudos for trying though.

[Warden]

This again comes down to card selection and card draw. Top provides selection and limited draw, Guile only provides selection. Truths and Scrying provide strictly draw.

Top, because it can do both and dodge Deed, is superior to Guile, even if you consider the mana investment. Guile is only somewhat playable if you're Enchantress, or have nothing else. If you're concerned about it being a mana sink, Sylvan is, hand to God, the fucking tits. I would play more, but no room. Even with the Deed possibility, it's worth it. Truths is also excellent at getting back into the mid-gain after fighting through counters or discard, or just to pull ahead.

My ideal package is: 3 Top, 2 Sylvan, 3 Truths, 1 Scrying. Overkill? Sure, but with a 60 card limitation, there's no way this fits, so I'm content with 3 Top, 1 Sylvan, 2-3 Truths.I really do feel like 3 Top/3 Truths/1 Sylvan has a good mix of what you need, without nothing you don't.

This is actually interesting to read. No sarcasm. I am in the "we can do better than guile" camp. Matt's justification makes more sense than anything I'd write. However, I'm in a different mentality about the ideal draw setup. I like the concept of Oath people are talking about and I'll be the odd man out: I like the concept of Gitaxian Probe (helps you with information, assists Therapy/TS, cantrips, is never a dead draw). Space is of course the ultimate hurdle to surpass.

I'd love to fool around with a list where this was the consistency package: (4 GSZ), 4 Gitaxian Probe, 2-3 top, 2 truth. Sylvan also being a possibility because...boobies. I'd consider supplementing probe with 1-2 maindeck thought seize or going colorless for Thought Knot Seer. There's something in the "lets shred hands" department that works so well for Nic Fit. The last time I mentioned G-Probe someone commented about how it makes therapy better. I'd like to up my therapy/discard game while simultaneously cantripping and smoothing out variance. Probe isn't going to suddenly take away clunky hands. Not am I implying this. However, there is a lot of untapped potential in abusing the information it gives. A majority of the time, we have life to spare. And I play so much stronger if/when I have hand-knowledge. Idk how to make it all fit. Because space is an issue for everyone's list.

[Echelon]

Sylvan also being a possibility because...boobies.

I don't get it, please do explain.

On Gitaxian Probe - yes, it makes Therapy better, but it also opens you up to throwing away 2 life for nothing and can be a dead card in the late game when low on life, especially when you also run both Truths and Thoughtseizes.

I've considered it before, but haven't tested it yet.

[Warden]

@Echelon: Good point about lifeloss. But that may be the risk worth taking. The explanation you're looking for btw (below)

...If you're concerned about it being a mana sink, Sylvan is, hand to God, the fucking tits. I would play more, but no room...

Sylvan also being a possibility because...boobies.

[Echelon]

Tits.

[Ricardio]

finished 2-3 in a league, definitely depressing.

I beat eldrazi and bug delver. lost to Sneak n Show(4 mentor in sb), Burn and Red Goblins.

SnS: had t2 snt on the play for griselbrand and I couldn't find karakas or removal. g2 he had me dead on board but accidentally activated griselbrand at 7 life. g3 I love to the third mentor.

Burn: he opened with 2 lands and only drew spells both games, also kept in PoP like a baddie.

Red Goblins: Both games he had t1 vial and drew gas every draw step while I flooded out both times and didn't see a single deed.

Feels bad when your opponents run hot, over you.

Sb feels like 15 sb for combo is too many. I will reevaluate where I need to be and go from there.

[rubblekill]

finished 2-3 in a league, definitely depressing.

I beat eldrazi and bug delver. lost to Sneak n Show(4 mentor in sb), Burn and Red Goblins.

SnS: had t2 snt on the play for griselbrand and I couldn't find karakas or removal. g2 he had me dead on board but accidentally activated griselbrand at 7 life. g3 I love to the third mentor.

Burn: he opened with 2 lands and only drew spells both games, also kept in PoP like a baddie.

Red Goblins: Both games he had t1 vial and drew gas every draw step while I flooded out both times and didn't see a single deed.

Feels bad when your opponents run hot, over you.

Sb feels like 15 sb for combo is too many. I will reevaluate where I need to be and go from there.

Oh man I understand the depression, that loss vs burn feels bad I'm sure about it. Heck we are the rhino x4.deck.
The goblin mu in my experience only depends on how many ring leaders they manage to draw. Deed and rhino devastate them otherwise.

Those 2 mu are winnable, you only got unlucky, it happens! (I bet those SotL were bad right?)

[Ricardio]

Oh man I understand the depression, that loss vs burn feels bad I'm sure about it. Heck we are the rhino x4.deck.
The goblin mu in my experience only depends on how many ring leaders they manage to draw. Deed and rhino devastate them otherwise.

Those 2 mu are winnable, you only got unlucky, it happens! (I bet those SotL were bad right?)

goblins just kept drawing matrons off the top and the player agreed they were insane draws. He got to get a krenko and make like 8 tokens and then the following turn ripped the 4th matron to get a chieftain and swing for like 30

SotL were just very underwhelming. They are a nuisance but they don't stop your opp from doing a ton, they can still just kill you whereas canonist makes them answer her.

[Warden]

goblins just kept drawing matrons off the top and the player agreed they were insane draws. He got to get a krenko and make like 8 tokens and then the following turn ripped the 4th matron to get a chieftain and swing for like 30

SotL were just very underwhelming. They are a nuisance but they don't stop your opp from doing a ton, they can still just kill you whereas canonist makes them answer her.

For combo, you need the girls (no, not another chesticle reference): Canonist, Thalia, C. Priest. Years of experience point to them doing enough disruption when paired with matchup specific options like TS, Duress, Teeg, white Leyline, Surgical, Needle, Revoker. Canonist remains my #1 option because limiting combo decks to 1 spell per turn is backbreaking. Thalia is the second strongest, but I've lost games with her on the table. Sometimes that Thalia tax isn't enough (especially since we do not run Thalia-Wasteland as a dedicated line of play). Priest is more for sneak/show, dredge, and reanimator.

TL; DR: use female hatebears backed by 1-2 anti-combo spells to beat combo.

[Tao]

I have a lot of experience with the Goblin matchup. The Nr. 1 key card is Cabal Therapy. Snack their Matrons and Ringleaders. Deed is also very important of course.

Explorer is really dangerous without Therapy because Goblins can use the Mana very well.

[Brael]

Oath and Traverse can both fetch Shriekmaw, it helps get delirium and it's fantastic manasink/card advantage card that hits nearly all creatures (especially eldrazi) except DRS, angler, strix and TNN (though it does attack past it!) and it synergises like crazy with Meren...

I'm Gnna brew a GBx list that abuses these cards

In Modern I've been playing RUG Delver lately using Traverse. It's pretty slow to turn on but the card is very good if you can enable it fast enough.

Edit: More thoughts
GBw is still probably the way to go with Traverse because you can use Tidehollow Sculler, it gives information for Therapy (important since you can't flashback it as much) and it's two types when it dies. Courser is also pretty good alongside Deed. The big problem would be getting instants.

On the subject of Probe, why not just use Inquisition of Kozilek instead? Discard is better than card draw since it helps against combo, it doesn't cost 2 life, and it still gives information. The problem is in finding room, in order to add discard you either have to remove the CA engine or the finishers.

[Warden]

In Modern I've been playing RUG Delver lately using Traverse. It's pretty slow to turn on but the card is very good if you can enable it fast enough.

Edit: More thoughts
GBw is still probably the way to go with Traverse because you can use Tidehollow Sculler, it gives information for Therapy (important since you can't flashback it as much) and it's two types when it dies. Courser is also pretty good alongside Deed. The big problem would be getting instants.

On the subject of Probe, why not just use Inquisition of Kozilek instead? Discard is better than card draw since it helps against combo, it doesn't cost 2 life, and it still gives information. The problem is in finding room, in order to add discard you either have to remove the CA engine or the finishers.

The logic is that Probe cantrips and potentially costs 0 mana, leading to very solid lines of play (as well as the home-run opener of being on the play -> probe -> therapy). Any other type of discard is always going to be static discard throughout the game, which depreciates in value over the course of the game. Topdeck probe is at worst "2 life: get the next card", but IoK or another discard spell sucks.
Again, I'm not sure how to fit it all in. Gitaxian is a card that effectively thins your list to 56 cards.

[Brael]

The logic is that Probe cantrips and potentially costs 0 mana, leading to very solid lines of play (as well as the home-run opener of being on the play -> probe -> therapy). Any other type of discard is always going to be static discard throughout the game, which depreciates in value over the course of the game. Topdeck probe is at worst "2 life: get the next card", but IoK or another discard spell sucks.
Again, I'm not sure how to fit it all in. Gitaxian is a card that effectively thins your list to 56 cards.

I get the logic and the appeal, I just don't think it works here. Probe isn't a card we want because we want cards that do things. Delver doesn't even run Probe just because of the cantrip, they run it because it's a free spell to flip Delver, there are several cantrips they avoid because they aren't instants and sorceries.

I do disagree with the 56 card logic too, it's more like you're getting 1 more card drawn by turn 4. So instead of going 10 cards deep out of 60 cards you're going 11 deep. This has a bigger effect earlier in the game but a lesser effect later. Seeing 11 vs 10 is huge but seeing 26 instead of 24 is much less valuable so in a sense cantripping also loses value as the game goes long, and our deck goes long. That's why we need recurring advantage so much, we're not fast enough to take advantage of 1 shot effects.

Whether it's Thoughtseize or IoK or Probe though I don't know where the room would come from. I don't know about you, but I'm really enjoying my 20 creature list and would ideally like to run even more but there's a hard limit to creatures in this deck. Between 4 Top/GSZ/Therapy and 21 lands there's a theoretical maximum of 25 creatures and that's only if you give up all your good removal.

Actually, on the creature count argument I want to touch on Oath of Nissa. It needs 37 hits, with 21 lands that means you need a minimum of 16 creatures/pw's to consider it, and that's for 95% accuracy. If you want better, and if you want to hit business rather than lands you need to run more.

Edit: Has anyone ever actually tried Tidehollow Sculler? I realize it's not green but it's a form of discard (just as tutorable as a Thoughtseize really), it has power, and it gives us knowledge on our opponents hand. It might be easier to find room for a 2/2 than for a spell. For example I've been finding QPM to be my 61st lately, maybe cutting that could work.

[Ricardio]

In Modern I've been playing RUG Delver lately using Traverse. It's pretty slow to turn on but the card is very good if you can enable it fast enough.

Edit: More thoughts
GBw is still probably the way to go with Traverse because you can use Tidehollow Sculler, it gives information for Therapy (important since you can't flashback it as much) and it's two types when it dies. Courser is also pretty good alongside Deed. The big problem would be getting instants.

On the subject of Probe, why not just use Inquisition of Kozilek instead? Discard is better than card draw since it helps against combo, it doesn't cost 2 life, and it still gives information. The problem is in finding room, in order to add discard you either have to remove the CA engine or the finishers.

sculler is not where we want to be when we are a deed deck. IoK is not where we want to be, if anything Thoughtseize would be the first card I go to after 4 therapies.

The logic is that Probe cantrips and potentially costs 0 mana, leading to very solid lines of play (as well as the home-run opener of being on the play -> probe -> therapy). Any other type of discard is always going to be static discard throughout the game, which depreciates in value over the course of the game. Topdeck probe is at worst "2 life: get the next card", but IoK or another discard spell sucks.
Again, I'm not sure how to fit it all in. Gitaxian is a card that effectively thins your list to 56 cards.

it does not make you 56 cards, you are putting in 4 AIR cards that cost you 2 life, so 56 cards and 12 starting life by your count. This is not a probe style deck and there is a cost to playing 4 probes in a U-less deck.

I get the logic and the appeal, I just don't think it works here. Probe isn't a card we want because we want cards that do things. Delver doesn't even run Probe just because of the cantrip, they run it because it's a free spell to flip Delver, there are several cantrips they avoid because they aren't instants and sorceries.

I do disagree with the 56 card logic too, it's more like you're getting 1 more card drawn by turn 4. So instead of going 10 cards deep out of 60 cards you're going 11 deep. This has a bigger effect earlier in the game but a lesser effect later. Seeing 11 vs 10 is huge but seeing 26 instead of 24 is much less valuable so in a sense cantripping also loses value as the game goes long, and our deck goes long. That's why we need recurring advantage so much, we're not fast enough to take advantage of 1 shot effects.

Whether it's Thoughtseize or IoK or Probe though I don't know where the room would come from. I don't know about you, but I'm really enjoying my 20 creature list and would ideally like to run even more but there's a hard limit to creatures in this deck. Between 4 Top/GSZ/Therapy and 21 lands there's a theoretical maximum of 25 creatures and that's only if you give up all your good removal.

Actually, on the creature count argument I want to touch on Oath of Nissa. It needs 37 hits, with 21 lands that means you need a minimum of 16 creatures/pw's to consider it, and that's for 95% accuracy. If you want better, and if you want to hit business rather than lands you need to run more.

Edit: Has anyone ever actually tried Tidehollow Sculler? I realize it's not green but it's a form of discard (just as tutorable as a Thoughtseize really), it has power, and it gives us knowledge on our opponents hand. It might be easier to find room for a 2/2 than for a spell. For example I've been finding QPM to be my 61st lately, maybe cutting that could work.

Warping the deck to include traverse and/or oath would be something you start from the foundation up. for instance, should you even be playing vet/therapy anymore? Is it not better in a maverick shell? Maverick is dead?

My issue with sculler is that it dies to actual everything including our own deeds. Traverse seems like it belongs elsewhere because we can't get delirium reliably enough.

[sdematt]

I think Sculler is fine as a sideboard piece against Combo, since most of the time, Deeds are dead there anyway. I'm just not sure Sculler is better than playing true hatebears and 1-CMC discard, since I'm always a fan of turn 1, take something, turn 2, drop a dude that stops you and then the race begins.

However, I would run Sculler right now in Degas or Deadguy Ale, either in main or board.

Realistically, then I'd run something like:

3 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ruination
2 Slaughter Games
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons/Control Walker

Ruination being not quite as good as Tsunami against all the icky Miracles players, but insane for Lands/Shardless/Jund/Eldrazi. This board is obviously weaker then to SnT rather than AnT, but I've found that matchup to be basically pretty darn bad, so fuck it.

-Matt

[Brael]

sculler is not where we want to be when we are a deed deck. IoK is not where we want to be, if anything Thoughtseize would be the first card I go to after 4 therapies.

Very possible, but the decks we want Sculler in we usually don't want Deed so it seems like it might be an easy sideboard swap in games 2 and 3 for an edge on decks like Storm.

Warping the deck to include traverse and/or oath would be something you start from the foundation up. for instance, should you even be playing vet/therapy anymore? Is it not better in a maverick shell? Maverick is dead?

I agree, Traverse is very different, I think it's a Legacy viable card but this isn't the deck for it. For one, GSZ and Therapy both actively work against it because neither puts a sorcery into your GY. Oath is a little different but for the most part I agree, I'm not really interested in one shot manipulation effects unless I can get some board presence out of them too.

[uncletiggy]

This will probably get lost in the high velocity with which we are burning threw pages but i figured id share my progress so far. Ive been conducting my own ground up rebuild using miracles and shardless as the viable control deck models to follow and have yet to test anything but here are my notes and scribbles you can largely ignore the sideboard its just a starting point for when i start testing i apologise the formating didnt paste well:


Miracles control shell:

5-6.5 finisher:
2-3 instakill
3-4.4 slow death

3 non creature wincons
2-3.5 creature based wincons

18 manipulation:
10 card advantage
18 filter

7 permanent based
11 one shot

25 disruption:
23-25 creature answers
14 non creature answer
13 spell based combo
0 graveyard

7 permanent based
15 one shot


Shardless control shell:

10-11 finisher:
1 instakill
9-10 slow death

1 non creature
9-10 creature

16 manipulation:
16 card advantage
5 filter

1 permanent based
15 one shot

26 disrutpion:
18 creature
18 non creature
17 spell based combo
4 graveyard

10 permanent based
16 one shot

Nicfit miracles/shardless model list:

4 zenith
1 arbor
4 explorer
1 ste
1 qpm
1 witness
1 sigarda

3 top
2 intent

3 leyline void
2 helm

4 therapy
1 ts
3 decay
2 lilly
1 deed
1 pulse
2 e bridge
1 trinishpere
1 garruk relentless


2 bayou
1 scrub
2 savannah
2 forest
3 swamp
1 plains
1 karakas
1 phyrexian tower
4 verdant catacombs
4 windswept heath

29 disruption(therapy=8):
20 creature
19 non creature
20 spell based combo
3 graveyard

14 permanent based
20 one shot

7@0 cmc (fb therapy/leyline)
5@1 cmc
0@2 cmc
3@3 cmc
3@4 cmc

13 manipulation(4vet=2):
8 card advantage
13 selection
7 hard tutor

5 permanent based
7 one shot


9 finisher:
3 non creature based
6 creature

10 ramp:
8@1 cmc
5@2 cmc
4@3 cmc




Sb
2 path
1 leyline of the void
1 deed
1 deluge
2 e plaque
1 ts
1 hymm
1 grip
1 lilly
1 sorin
1 decay
2 needle


I feel like a lot of ground is gained vs storm, sns, dredge, reanimator, turbo eldrazi, eldrazi aggro and lands.

Dnt and burn look rough on paper and delver in general may loose some percentage points.