[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Ricardio]

What allows Delver to get the job done is that it has a very low curve with several undercost creatures backed by free counterspells. Their deck runs on very few resources. Ours is different because it needs a lot of resources. I think you're misevaluating Guile here. It's not quite a Ponder because Ponder allows for stacking or shuffling, and it replaces itself in your hand. How many times do you need to repeat stacking your top 3 in order to make up for that? I would say enough times that you're able to avoid two bad draws (once for the card to break even, once to get some value off it). So you're looking probably a 3 turn return on the card. The key difference between Guile and Top is that Top can always be cashed in for a card so it doesn't take as long to break even, especially if you draw multiples.

I 100% agree with the delver analysis but I think top will always be better than guile(barring enchantress shenanigans).

The main advantage I see is that it's an instant. That allows for better timing, it could be that Vindicate is still better though. The main problems I see with Stasis Snare are that it's WW so it's tough to cast early, and it only hits creatures. If we're talking about cards that are good against Eldrazi and Miracles we need cards that are capable of hitting anything or nearly anything.

You are very astute. I agree.

[sdematt]

I 100% agree with the delver analysis but I think top will always be better than guile(barring enchantress shenanigans).



You are very astute. I agree.

TTX also brings up a good point, that the Lands matchup certainly isn't favourable. Ruination also handles that one.

[Echelon]

What allows Delver to get the job done is that it has a very low curve with several undercost creatures backed by free counterspells. Their deck runs on very few resources. Ours is different because it needs a lot of resources. I think you're misevaluating Guile here. It's not quite a Ponder because Ponder allows for stacking or shuffling, and it replaces itself in your hand. How many times do you need to repeat stacking your top 3 in order to make up for that? I would say enough times that you're able to avoid two bad draws (once for the card to break even, once to get some value off it). So you're looking probably a 3 turn return on the card. The key difference between Guile and Top is that Top can always be cashed in for a card so it doesn't take as long to break even, especially if you draw multiples.

I 100% agree with the delver analysis but I think top will always be better than guile(barring enchantress shenanigans).

The question never was which of the two is better. Top easily wins that, no need to discuss. The point of having both Guiles and Tops on board was to approach the consistency the blue cantrip shell gives decks as much as possible, nothing more. Yes, Delver does undercosted creatures and free counters. So what? Shardless BUG uses the shell to do CA creatures and some free counters, TES/ANT/Reanimator/Tin Fins uses the shell to blow people out of the water, Aluren/Food Chain uses it to assemble CA & combo. The point is that all of these decks carry a relatively low number of real threats and all manage to get by.

With Guile + Top as Brainstorm + Ponder analog, the ramp we play and with GSZ to top it off we have the tools to be as consistent as anything playing the blue cantrip shell while having access to all the toys we know and love. I guess I went wrong when I compared it to anyDelver.dec, since that wasn't the sentiment I was trying to convey.

[Tao]

Playing Mirri's Guile on top of 4 SDTs is terrible. These cards don't cantrip and 3-4 is the most a deck can use. "Play Guile, Upkeep see Top, 2nd Guile, Bayou", that is what you are in for. Also the entire concept of trying to mimick any setup (in this case Ponder / Brainstorm) with inferior cards is stupid.

[Echelon]

Playing Mirri's Guile on top of 4 SDTs is terrible. These cards don't cantrip and 3-4 is the most a deck can use. "Play Guile, Upkeep see Top, 2nd Guile, Bayou", that is what you are in for. Also the entire concept of trying to mimick any setup (in this case Ponder / Brainstorm) with inferior cards is stupid.

Thank you for your contribution. It was very helpful.

Would you be so kind as to explain how you came to your conclusion? I thought we had moved past the point of just calling eachothers ideas stupid without any rhyme or reason. Please try to use the terms "consistency" and "opportunity cost", since consistency is the subject of this discussion and opportunity cost is what's involved when trying these constructions. Don't forget to take into consideration the 16-18 shuffling effects we run and how we can adjust our playstyle accordingly.

Disagreeing with an idea is perfectly fine, but put some more effort into it than just calling it stupid.

[Ganfar]

I think Oath of Nissa is just better with top then guile. You will get 3 freash new cards and cantripde. Oath is the green ponder.

[Echelon]

It also tucks away the Top we aim to find more consistently, so it doesn't help us there.

[rubblekill]

I do even agree with Tao, but even before that though process my main concern would be how to play a 1 mana permanent (that can't be put on top of our deck) with deed, which in my opinion is one of the best cards in the deck. Before Echelon gets triggered, this is an honest concern I am not trolling. Top and truths/scrying are not enough? We have not space for fluff in the deck, when I have a top in play all I want to draw is gas, not an enchantment that will eventually die to my own deed.

[Echelon]

I know you're not trolling , and to be honest I'm not entirely sure on the idea myself. I just want to give it a fair go.

I adressed the various cases for Guile 2 pages back and have considered Deed. What I arrived at is that if you consider Guile an almost-Ponder and if Ponder as a 1-shot thing is a valid Legacy card, then as long as you manage to use Guile 1/2 times before blowing up Deed, you've essentially used it as a valid Legacy card and therefor should be fine with blowing it up (since you don't mind Ponder going to your graveyard).

Now consider that Guile preferably comes down T1, you probably get to trigger it twice (upkeep of turns 2 and 3) before you cast Deed and probably 3 times (upkeep of turn 4) before the first time you blow up a Deed.

Is that something I'd want to invest a mana and a card in? Maybe. It does have some awesome synergy with fetchlands (or a small GSZ) in the meantime (that might actually help you find the Deed that blows Guile up eventually).

It might also be a call to switch from Deed to Toxic Deluge, or to more spotremoval or beefy creatures. Deed is a great card, but it's not one we must play.

[Jain_Mor]

It also tucks away the Top we aim to find more consistently, so it doesn't help us there.

This is a logical fallacy right? You can say it doesn't find you tops, but you can't say it makes finding tops harder because it ships them to the bottom. You have more chance of top not being in the top 3 cards of your deck than being in them, so if anything it digs you closer to your tops if you want to think about it like that (which I wouldn't)

It's similar to the problems new players have with self milling.

Also guile not replacing itself is a reaallllyyy big deal. Drawing or opening with multiples is a nightmare. I guess these are reasons I won't be spending time testing it. But if you take the time to do so and come back with positive results then I'd be more inclined too :)

[sdematt]

I know you're not trolling , and to be honest I'm not entirely sure on the idea myself. I just want to give it a fair go.

I adressed the various cases for Guile 2 pages back and have considered Deed. What I arrived at is that if you consider Guile an almost-Ponder and if Ponder as a 1-shot thing is a valid Legacy card, then as long as you manage to use Guile 1/2 times before blowing up Deed, you've essentially used it as a valid Legacy card and therefor should be fine with blowing it up (since you don't mind Ponder going to your graveyard).

Now consider that Guile preferably comes down T1, you probably get to trigger it twice (upkeep of turns 2 and 3) before you cast Deed and probably 3 times (upkeep of turn 4) before the first time you blow up a Deed.

Is that something I'd want to invest a mana and a card in? Maybe. It does have some awesome synergy with fetchlands (or a small GSZ) in the meantime (that might actually help you find the Deed that blows Guile up eventually).

It might also be a call to switch from Deed to Toxic Deluge, or to more spotremoval or beefy creatures. Deed is a great card, but it's not one we must play.

This again comes down to card selection and card draw. Top provides selection and limited draw, Guile only provides selection. Truths and Scrying provide strictly draw.

Top, because it can do both and dodge Deed, is superior to Guile, even if you consider the mana investment. Guile is only somewhat playable if you're Enchantress, or have nothing else. If you're concerned about it being a mana sink, Sylvan is, hand to God, the fucking tits. I would play more, but no room. Even with the Deed possibility, it's worth it. Truths is also excellent at getting back into the mid-gain after fighting through counters or discard, or just to pull ahead.

My ideal package is: 3 Top, 2 Sylvan, 3 Truths, 1 Scrying. Overkill? Sure, but with a 60 card limitation, there's no way this fits, so I'm content with 3 Top, 1 Sylvan, 2-3 Truths.I really do feel like 3 Top/3 Truths/1 Sylvan has a good mix of what you need, without nothing you don't.

[Echelon]

Also guile not replacing itself is a reaallllyyy big deal. Drawing or opening with multiples is a nightmare. I guess these are reasons I won't be spending time testing it. But if you take the time to do so and come back with positive results then I'd be more inclined too :)

Well, if you have several weeks to wait for it I might be able to. Next time I get to play I'll make sure to proxy this mess up. Guile is the speediest card of the entire bunch. There might be some merit in that.

Oh, on Oath of Nissa - I think we can agree it will never give you a Top, right? It simply can't. So as a tool specifically to find/get Top, it's useless.

My ideal package is: 3 Top, 2 Sylvan, 3 Truths, 1 Scrying. Overkill? Sure, but with a 60 card limitation, there's no way this fits, so I'm content with 3 Top, 1 Sylvan, 2-3 Truths.I really do feel like 3 Top/3 Truths/1 Sylvan has a good mix of what you need, without nothing you don't.

You sir have a big package. I'm going to go have some fun with that, brew up a list that incorporates it in its entirety together with some means to (re)gain a good amount of life.

[sdematt]

Rhinos, Spikes, and Angels, oh my?

Currently in hour 7 of 9 of studying. It's 12:30 AM.

-Matt

[Echelon]

Rhinos, Spikes, and Angels, oh my?

Currently in hour 7 of 9 of studying. It's 12:30 AM.

-Matt

Currently enjoying a poop?

[Jain_Mor]

IF you wanted to match, or even best, blue style consistency (though you will never be able to unmulligan without the extremely skill intensive foundation of the legacy format (I hope you can feel the seething sarcasm) that is brainstorm) then I would start with 4 Oath, 3-4 top, 3-4 Traverse the Uvenwald and 4Gsun (or no Gsun I don't know).

Since oath helps you hit delirium and you can add planeswalkers to your deck and creatures like shriekmaw to supplement removal spells to tide you over till your sweepers deluge/deed fix everything for you and your walkers/rhinos can finish the game.

[Echelon]

IF you wanted to match, or even best, blue style consistency (though you will never be able to unmulligan without the extremely skill intensive foundation of the legacy format (I hope you can feel the seething sarcasm) that is brainstorm) then I would start with 4 Oath, 3-4 top, 3-4 Traverse the Uvenwald and 4Gsun (or no Gsun I don't know). Since oath helps you hit delirium and you can add planeswalkers to your deck and creatures like shriekmaw to supplement removal spells to ride you over till your sweepers deluge/deed fix everything for you and your walkers/rhinos can finish the game.

You crazy, beautiful person. I think you just earned Bobmans' spot as resident evil genius.

[Tao]

The problem with Guile is that

1. it is worse than Top: Compared to SDT a) it dies to Deed, b) an extra copy in your starting hand is a straight mulligan and c) if you topdeck it you have to wait for a full turn to use it.
2. it gets worse if you already play Top: that is because the stuff you see in the top3 cards gets worse, you Top into Guile or Guile into Top, and you never want a second copy of this effect. Ponder and Brainstorm do not have this problem because they replace themselves.

About Punishing Nic Fit, the first card that I think should be maxed out on is Liliana. Great against Miracles, and the Edict is good against Eldrazi. The card I would cut is Abrupt Decay. It is bad against all problem matchups (aggressive Eldrazi, big Eldrazi and everything that tries to cheat Marit Lage or Griselbrand into play) and against Miracles we can try to rely on Deed or Rec Sage. I would try to push the own game plan more with something like 4 Lili, 4 Fire, 4 Deed, 4 Top, 3-4 Huntmaster.

[Echelon]

1. it is worse than Top: Compared to SDT a) it dies to Deed, b) an extra copy in your starting hand is a straight mulligan and c) if you topdeck it you have to wait for a full turn to use it.
2. it gets worse if you already play Top: that is because the stuff you see in the top3 cards gets worse, you Top into Guile or Guile into Top, and you never want a second copy of this effect. Ponder and Brainstorm do not have this problem because they replace themselves.

Thank you for putting some effort into this my good sir, I really appreciate it.

I'm not sure if you'd never want a second copy of that effect. Putting GSZ/fetchland on top with the Guile trigger and casting/cracking it before activating Top (entertaining the possibility one might run into a second shuffle effect) has some obvious value.

Also, it's exactly because you run into multiples that you should have less problems with blowing one up with a Deed - you just drop your second copy after blowing up Deed.

On the general aversion of Deed blowing up ones own stuff: To win a battle one has to accept that there will be casualties. This should never, ever be an argument not to play a card. What gets me most is the sheer randomness with which the argument gets used. Sylvan Safekeeper? No problem. Deathrite Shaman? But Deed!

I'll just have to proxy it up when I get the chance .

[rubblekill]

Thank you for putting some effort into this my good sir, I really appreciate it.

I'm not sure if you'd never want a second copy of that effect. Putting GSZ/fetchland on top with the Guile trigger and casting/cracking it before activating Top (entertaining the possibility one might run into a second shuffle effect) has some obvious value.

Also, it's exactly because you run into multiples you should have less problems with blowing one up with a Deed - you just drop your second copy after blowing up Deed.

I'll just have to proxy it up when I get the chance .

But isn't that a straight raw card disadvantage? That's bad right?

[Echelon]

But isn't that a straight raw card disadvantage? That's bad right?

You are 100% right, it is. That's one of the reasons why I'm still not sure on the idea.