[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[sdematt]

I think it matters a lot and I don't think it is close. Swords is just better in that deck. Giving D&T or Goblins Mana on turn 1 on a Mother of Runes or a Lackey is going to wreck you. Giving Infect their early Basic, giving Elves an extra Forest, or any DR Shaman deck with basics an early land hurts, too.

These situations are much more likely to matter than beating Miracles by turn 25 instead of turn 26.

With Rhinos you have a beatdown / lifeloss plan so Swords can hurt. But what do 5 extra life matter with Baneslayers, Archangels and Dragonlords? Certainly not as much as the risk from Path. Either you get these flyers to attack/combo and you win, or you don't and you lose.

Fair point.

[Ricardio]

It matters less with this build, I agree, but it does still matter. Just because it has a combo with Thune in the deck does not mean that it's not still actively pressuring the opponent. Baneslayer usually ends the game in 3 swings, sometimes 2. Swords actively harms that clock. Furthermore, the argument of Path vs Swords vs Lands is still relevant: it's nearly impossible to beat them after they've gained 20 life, but it's quite possible if they grab a Forest instead (assuming that a Vet hasn't gone off already, in which case they get nothing).

Barring a really unusual circumstance, I think that Path is -almost- strictly better than Swords for Nic Fit, in the current meta at the very least.

Path is much better. Its often free and when its a land, it means nothing.

I think it matters a lot and I don't think it is close. Swords is just better in that deck. Giving D&T or Goblins Mana on turn 1 on a Mother of Runes or a Lackey is going to wreck you. Giving Infect their early Basic, giving Elves an extra Forest, or any DR Shaman deck with basics an early land hurts, too.

These situations are much more likely to matter than beating Miracles by turn 25 instead of turn 26.

With Rhinos you have a beatdown / lifeloss plan so Swords can hurt. But what do 5 extra life matter with Baneslayers, Archangels and Dragonlords? Certainly not as much as the risk from Path. Either you get these flyers to attack/combo and you win, or you don't and you lose.

This logic flawed. Giving your opponent a land instead of giving them a turn or two when you are clocking with far superior angels is along with the rhino plan. Control the board, play superior creatures, save the cheerleader, save the world. Pathing a goyf usually results in your opponent exiling their creature and nothing more. when they gain like 6 life and your banelsayer is a 3 turn instead of one turn, that's huge. Path is just the best single target, 1 cmc removal we have. Playing swords is wrong and I feel like there is a glitch in the matrix because we've went over this and we go over it with new people all the time but you have been here so why make a bold statement based off of untested bias? Seems like an oversight.

Liberation day? Nice. Its Cinco de Mayo in Murika. 2 for $1 margaritas and 2 tacos for 2 dollars tonight. and then Civil War!

[Brael]

I think it matters a lot and I don't think it is close. Swords is just better in that deck. Giving D&T or Goblins Mana on turn 1 on a Mother of Runes or a Lackey is going to wreck you. Giving Infect their early Basic, giving Elves an extra Forest, or any DR Shaman deck with basics an early land hurts, too.

These situations are much more likely to matter than beating Miracles by turn 25 instead of turn 26.

With Rhinos you have a beatdown / lifeloss plan so Swords can hurt. But what do 5 extra life matter with Baneslayers, Archangels and Dragonlords? Certainly not as much as the risk from Path. Either you get these flyers to attack/combo and you win, or you don't and you lose.

You could always run a split so the chance is there of hitting the better one in each matchup. Statistically you're no worse off with a split than going all in on one vs the other, but there's higher upside when it does work.

[Arianrhod]

I find it amusing and vaguely insulting that people think that I post my thoughts without any basis behind them. I have a local legacy scene. I have testing partners, including a roommate that plays legacy and vintage. I've tried the deck with Swords, and I've tried the deck with Path. You can make the argument that giving this small cluster of decks an extra land is dangerous. I can just as easily counter with two points: A: in my experience, (not theorycrafting) it's been fine; and B: if you're worried about giving them one land off of Path, why are you playing Nic Fit and giving them two off of a Vet activation?

When it comes to Veteran and Path, it is wise to remind ourselves of the following famous lines:

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
--Dune

The -only- deck in the entire format where I am ruled by my fear is Miracles. Shardless? Set 'em all off. Death and Taxes? Absolutely. Goblins? I'm not happy, but I'll still fuckin do it.

[sdematt]

Isnt there a Metallica song, "Kill 'Em All"?

[Brael]

Yah, I've been building decks using spreadsheets and numerical analysis for a long time, so I assumed a lot of people were just doing it too.

I saw a good article about the science of sideboarding (google it) a while ago

And yea, I think thats why this whole discussion began, I've got a lot of data, and the data tells me we can shave points off of our delver and creature matchups to up our miracles and combo game. Hence the inclusion of thoughtsieze and more card advantage.

I must have missed a memo or something, but what is SE fit?

SE Fit was the name for this requirements first system of building, SE standing for Systems Engineering, it's using that same approach where you first outline the requirements for your project and then you make decisions to hit all of those requirements.

On the topic of Thoughtseize, this is my first day of summer break and I've spent the last 9 hours doing nothing other than pondering the question of what cuts do I make to include them. I'm still drawing a blank. This is my current list
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/se-fit/

I see where I can sideboard Thoughtseize, but I don't see where I can really consider it as a MB option without compromising card advantage.

[Ricardio]

I assume the meta has to be slower but seize sounds strong main imho. I may try to find some room.

[Arianrhod]

I don't think the meta is nearly fast enough to justify Thoughtseize. You never want to draw the card vs Miracles, Shardless, or Eldrazi. It's fine but unexciting vs Delver, and the combo deck du jour is Lands, which means Thoughtseize is garbage unless you're on the play and have it in your opener. The only reason I still have two in my board at all is because Mythic tends to have a very random metagame spread other than the horde of Delver players. Sometimes people still show up with Show and Tell, Storm, Belcher, etc where Seize is very good. Looking at the Grand Prix metagame, I'm not actually sure if they'll even make the sideboard, to be honest.

[Echelon]

Model based is how I've built for years, I like the concept but it's also easy to go wrong in constructing the model (see the two ideas which have lead to SFM vs Bob as a 2 drop and wildly different deck results). Sometimes the requirements aren't accurate and that's the case now. We have major problems with Eldrazi and Miracles but seem overtuned for Delver. I would suggest we try and Elephant the deck against everything in the DTB forum. Come up with a set of requirements for each archetype and our lists. From there we can identify the core cards and what needs to shift with the meta, alongside how the SB should shift. This should result in a deck that's more balanced against the field while also giving us an optimal sideboard plan.

SE has definitely taken me to new places though. My creature counts are higher, my CA is up, card selection is up. My mana efficiency is up. It's like I can hang with the blue decks now. Shardless, Delver, etc are pretty much never lose but Miracles is sometimes lose and Eldrazi is always lose... we won't even go into S&T and Reanimator.

Actually, if I remember correctly Chapin's deckbuilding book has a chapter devoted to model based building.

Including building a requirements model? I mean, I've been doing numbers for a long, long time, but never the complete SE miles (and we've skipped a few steps there as well, there's only so much you can do on a forum). It's nice to see the SE approach got you something .

I should check it out. I'm playing with the idea of writing about it myself (the SE approach in its entirety is convoluted enough to fill an entire book with), but have no interest in regurgitating someone elses work.

I am ambivalent about Arbor. He would be replacing Karakas as land #21, which is something I am not comfortable with. I would love to play 21 lands for the first time. I am also not a fan of going up to 22 lands just for dryad arbor.

Dryad Arbor should, for al intents and purposes, always be considered as a creature and not a land. It should not ever be a part of the actual manabase and in your opening 7 it does not count as a viable land drop. Please do keep in mind that even though I'm saying this, it's one of my pet cards.

Also, Happy Liberation Day to the Dutch.

Sincerely,

A Canadian.

Thank you my good sir.

Isnt there a Metallica song, "Kill 'Em All"?

Otep has "Drunk on the blood of the saints", that start with "Kill 'em all, kill 'em all". I'm of the opinion that "Run for cover" fits this deck better since, you know, noone gets out alive!

[Brael]

Including building a requirements model? I mean, I've been doing numbers for a long, long time, but never the complete SE miles (and we've skipped a few steps there as well, there's only so much you can do on a forum). It's nice to see the SE approach got you something .

I should check it out. I'm playing with the idea of writing about it myself (the SE approach in its entirety is convoluted enough to fill an entire book with), but have no interest in regurgitating someone elses work.

I would have to double check the section in the book, I don't remember how in depth it went. As I mentioned, it's something I've done for years so the idea was something of a review when I read about it. If you want to get down to it even articles like Philosophy of Fire are going for a requirements model. The first real decks I built were burn decks and that's the way I approached them after reading those articles. I would start with how much damage I had to deal, how many cards I had, how much mana I had, and work from there. I still use that approach today with Burn and it's very successful.

Dryad Arbor should, for al intents and purposes, always be considered as a creature and not a land. It should not ever be a part of the actual manabase and in your opening 7 it does not count as a viable land drop. Please do keep in mind that even though I'm saying this, it's one of my pet cards.

Was reminded of this today, played a small paper Legacy event, just 3 rounds. Round 1 I was against Shardless BUG, we went to a 1-1-1 but with another 5 min I probably could have won the match. Round 2 was against Show and Tell, won 2-1 in 3 close games. Round 3 was against Jund, lost 2-1. I took the first game, second game I kept Dryad Arbor+Volrath's as my lands with double Explorer, double Therapy in hand (never do this), Arbor ate a bolt, Volraths ate a Wasteland and I scooped. Somehow lost game 3 even though I had Volraths to return a Rhino every turn and got my opponent to 1 life before DRS stalemated the Volraths.

Arbor makes mana, and many times I like it as a T1 ramp option, but if it's going to come down as one of your first 2-3 real land drops, you should always mulligan.

[sdematt]

I would have to double check the section in the book, I don't remember how in depth it went. As I mentioned, it's something I've done for years so the idea was something of a review when I read about it. If you want to get down to it even articles like Philosophy of Fire are going for a requirements model. The first real decks I built were burn decks and that's the way I approached them after reading those articles. I would start with how much damage I had to deal, how many cards I had, how much mana I had, and work from there. I still use that approach today with Burn and it's very successful.




Was reminded of this today, played a small paper Legacy event, just 3 rounds. Round 1 I was against Shardless BUG, we went to a 1-1-1 but with another 5 min I probably could have won the match. Round 2 was against Show and Tell, won 2-1 in 3 close games. Round 3 was against Jund, lost 2-1. I took the first game, second game I kept Dryad Arbor+Volrath's as my lands with double Explorer, double Therapy in hand (never do this), Arbor ate a bolt, Volraths ate a Wasteland and I scooped. Somehow lost game 3 even though I had Volraths to return a Rhino every turn and got my opponent to 1 life before DRS stalemated the Volraths.

Arbor makes mana, and many times I like it as a T1 ramp option, but if it's going to come down as one of your first 2-3 real land drops, you should always mulligan.

Also, if you guys haven't checked out "Magic: The Addiction", it's very good. Not biased since I'm one of the main foci in the book ;)

[Echelon]

Also, if you guys haven't checked out "Magic: The Addiction", it's very good. Not biased since I'm one of the main foci in the book ;)

I'll make sure all my bacon is Canadian, since you live there and I promise I'll start listening to Nickleback and Avril Lavigne. Sometimes, man. OMG, lol.

[gngpostalsrvc]

Hello fellow Nic Fitters! Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been experimenting with a Jund Pod list and would appreciate your feedback. I'm 9-2 with deck so far at my LGS with my only losses being to Burn (twice). The pros of the deck are that it can kill out of nowhere with Birthing Pod and Murderous Redcap and can grind like no one's business against fair decks with Meren and Imperial Recruiter. The cons are that the mana base is kinda wonky (I've been manascrewed more than I should) and there's little interaction for early aggressive creatures. I've only killed with the Melira combo once, so I'm wondering if I should tailor the deck more toward the Kiki combo and the fair game plan.


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Viscera Seer

2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wall of Root
1 Spellskite

4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness

2 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Murderous Redcap

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Birthing Pod
4 Cabal Therapy

2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire


SB:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Slaughter Games
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Minister of Pain
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless

[Jain_Mor]

@Arianrhod: Agreed regarding Sorin art, I want to like it for those reasons, but just can't
I also often build decks without maths haha, I use both sides of that coin :)

@Navsi, I agree, that removal configuration (3 Path, 2 Decay, 1 3cmc, 2 Deed) was the one I was leaning towards, but wanted to see what people would say without me influencing them. Thanks. I LOVE SoFaI. And the fact that you want to cut Anguished Unmaking against aggro decks makes me not want the card.

@Warden, everytime I try 4 SFM, it feels like too many, and 2 is too little. 3 is goldilocks in my extensive experience. I disagree on your PoV on 2 to 3 equipments. I hate drawing SFM or recurring them with Meren and not having more equipment to fetch. Plus Jitte, SoFaI and BSK are the best of the best. They can all do so much work. That said, if I were to cut one, it would be Jitte. And I do often wonder about changing it for SoLaS for pro-white.. or Body & Mind, or Feast & Famine for Pro-green. And disagree on cutting TS, need to push combo matchups from 50% to 60% if I can.

@Brael, I see thanks. As for making slots... I would cut Kruphix in a heart beat. I still think the card isn't worthy of a slot, cause of its cmc and mediocre attempt at card advantage. Especially as you have 2 bob, 2 tracker and ewit as well. if you really like kruphix, then cut one and one tracker. That's where you find those slots. I'd peronsally cut both kruphix and one tracker, add 2 TS and a Painful Truths. But personal preference etc. or cut a top in any one of those suggestions instead of something else.

@Arianrhod: (Hi again :) Regarding thoughtsieze, I disagree on a number accounts.

The meta doesn't have to be particularly fast to warrant TS. If the meta were fast I probably wouldn't play Nic Fit to begin with..

Remember, I added them to the deck because we can frankly shave some percentage points against a lot of matchups in an attempt to bolster others. TS is an inclusion because it helps with problems we have (combo & miracles) while yet not being useless against the decks we feast on (mid range, delver and creature decks). Where as our abundance of removal spells (that TS supplement) usually are useless against combo and miracles.

Why would you never want to draw TS against miracles? You're telling me you wouldn't love to find TS in your opening hand on the play before they have played top, or fixed their hand with BS? Or on the draw before they drop their counter balance? Or on T3 before they drop their jace? Or on turn X to trade for a removal/counter spell in their hand? Our gameplan against miracles is to overwhelm their answers and prevent their threats. TS does both of those things... and don't mention miracles living off of the top of their deck, people like to think that miracle players have everything hiding under those top 2 cards they float, but the quicker you get them to that desperately fetching and topping stage the easier it is to win.

and the combo deck de jour is not lands? The meta percentage of storm/showntell/reanimator, ie decks weak to TS, far exceeds the meta percentage of lands. MAYBE your meta is completely different to mine (mine being modo and tournaments with open fields)?

[Navsi]

I get the impression Melira and Kiki are vulnerable to basically the same forms of hate (creature removal spells, mainly) but Melira is additionally vulnerable to graveyard hate, where kiki is harder to cast. The overlap between the two is large enough that you probably don't need both - you don't really get many situations where one combo is releavant but the other wouldn't be, and there are a lot of possible draws where you get one half of one combo and one half of the other.

It's a pity there isn't a good Recruiter target in Jund colours which combos with Kiki, otherwise you could go Recruiter -> Kiki -> copy Recruiter -> combo off. The closest I can think of is this:

- Cast Recruiter (find Kiki-Jiki)
- Cast Kiki-Jiki, copy Recruiter EOT (find Seeker of Skybreak)
- Untap, Cast Seeker of Skybreak
- Copy Seeker of Skybreak, tap it to untap Kiki-Jiki, repeat for a large number of (tapped) copies of Seeker of Skybreak
- Copy Imperial Recruiter (find Wirewood Symbiote)
- Cast Wirewood Symbiote, return a Seeker of Skybreak token to untap Kiki-Jiki
- Copy Wirewood Symbiote, use the new Symbiote and one of the Seeker tokens to untap Kiki-jiki
- Use up all your Seeker tokens to make an arbitrary number of Wirewood Symbiote tokens
- Attack

Uses up two deck slots, and TBH it's no more vulnerable to removal since every form of interaction already kills Kiki-Jiki so it's not that relevant. On the other hand you're playing even more durdly garbage creatures which do nothing on their own. You could make them a bit more relevant by going further down the Elves! plan but then you'd probably be better off just playing Elves.

Edit: You might be able to go off with a single deckslot with Hell's Caretaker, but that card is a) a 4 mana 1/1/ and b) so cripplingly slow and awkward I really don't want to work out the line of play.

[rubblekill]

Yea I have to agree with Jain, I like discard against miracles. Usually the standard thought process using another deck would be to regard discard as useless because all it matters is whats in their top 3 cards of the deck. However, since in G2-3 our primary goal is to extract their jaces/terminus (angels are weak sauce against 3 deeds), TS helps us survive until that moment and to prevent JTMS from coming into play. And more t1 interactions really helps in ruining their hand: be it by taking their top so their hand becomes trash or a brainstorm (that's backbreaking to them).
I feel this deck lacks discard effects (what I have always missed from the old gb hymn version) and precisely t1 discard: I think i want more t1 interaction against every deck ever, since for the mid to late game we have every type of removal imaginable. Plus synergies with therapy.
Bad late game card: yes but top is here for a reason, that is drawing what we need when we need it in the late game.
Bonus damage against s&s and storm is always good.

I made the choice of playing ts after deciding that I am gonna win with rhino or Sigarda, nothing else. No trackers no coursers no nissa no angels no Titans, rhino after rhino is the most stable way to win in my experience. 4 mana is deed proof, only singletons ooze and drs die to deed in my deck. So I needed to fill the deck with some boring but effective cards in order to ensure that my game plan is going to work. No fun cards, but more stability, early interaction, combo defence.
Probably this isn't my final build of choice, but since the inclusion of ts i feel like I am going in a good direction, for me at least.

[Ricardio]

I made the choice of playing ts after deciding that I am gonna win with rhino or Sigarda, nothing else. No trackers no coursers no nissa no angels no Titans, rhino after rhino is the most stable way to win in my experience. 4 mana is deed proof, only singletons ooze and drs die to deed in my deck. So I needed to fill the deck with some boring but effective cards in order to ensure that my game plan is going to work. No fun cards, but more stability, early interaction, combo defence.
Probably this isn't my final build of choice, but since the inclusion of ts i feel like I am going in a good direction, for me at least.

it sounds like you are sacrificing yourself to win.

[Warden]

...
@Warden, everytime I try 4 SFM, it feels like too many, and 2 is too little. 3 is goldilocks in my extensive experience. I disagree on your PoV on 2 to 3 equipments. I hate drawing SFM or recurring them with Meren and not having more equipment to fetch. Plus Jitte, SoFaI and BSK are the best of the best. They can all do so much work. That said, if I were to cut one, it would be Jitte. And I do often wonder about changing it for SoLaS for pro-white.. or Body & Mind, or Feast & Famine for Pro-green. And disagree on cutting TS, need to push combo matchups from 50% to 60% if I can.
...

I'd like to optimize my list against an expected field of Delver (Grixis, BUG), SFM (deathblade, patriot), and Shardless. Any advice welcome.
I'm very interested in running the SFM build. I like a lot of Jain_Mor's shell (quoted below), but believe game 1 against fringe combo/miracles is a lost cause. I'd much rather let the SB take care of terrible matchups than water down my odds against stuff I should auto-win. Philosophically, I'd like to be 90% win against what I should be beating. I don't want to be a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none.

Jain_Mor's post a page or two back was this as a core:

4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1? Marsh flats / Karakas / Tower

3 Top
1 Truths
4 Gsun
1 D Abor
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 STE / DRS
1 Ewit
1 Tracker
1 Meren
1 Tusk / Rhino (I like tusk because it's better against miracles and trades with angler/goyf/smasher)
1 Sigarda

3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Therapy
2 Thoughtsieze
8 removal spells, hvnt decided on ratios yet, help??
x Path
x Decay
x Pulse/vindicate
x Deed

I don't like TS main for tomorrow. If I go this route, I may as well just audible to Junk-blade and get the whole gang: SFM/Confidant/KotR/Liliana/TS/Hymn. I just need to pick the best package and play smart. Whether it's SFM + Rhino, SFM + Baneslayer, 4 Rhino + 1 Tusk, 3 Rhino + 2 Baneslayer, etc.

Even if it's irrational, I love the concept of SFM + Rhino. SFM is goddamn resilient. Plus there's the raw power of landing SFM early --> Batterskull. If SFM is countered or killed off, you follow thing up with lord Rhino.

[Jain_Mor]

@rubblekill, sounds sensible

@ricardio, sounds like he's going to a tournament :P

@rubblekill & ricardio, I get you guys confused soooo much. Your names begin with "R" and you tend to agree with each other a lot that I forget who is who. Also rubblekill is from italy but ricardio has "io" at the end of his name, so I get the confused too. My brain conflates that you're related or something. Stupid brain making patterns where there are none.

@Warden, key to beating shardless is, cut your therapies game 2 but dont cut your veterans. They actually can't win without attacking on the ground and they are great against liliana so you don't need your therapies to make your vets die, let them do the work for you. The other key card is Meren, as long as you subdue their DRSs they can't stop you pulling ahead. Deed is sweet obviously and they usually over commit. They beat you by hitting loads of visions and landing an unconested jace.

I dont get why people think combo decks are fringe or whatever, I guess irl magic has a smaller combo meta percentage? I think your goal of being 90% and 30-40% against other decks when you can be 70% and 50% is flawed, but again preference etc. I also think the argument of "well if we run X card we might as well completely change the deck and add YZABCD and E cards too" is a bit silly/disingenuous. But if you are set on not running TS, then cut them and add 3rd deed and a rhino. Yes Rhino is besties with SoFaI/equipment. SFM and Rhino is a little like peanut butter and chocolate thanks to his trample. If you want more Rhinos, cut Tusk, Tracker, and Mere/Jitte if you really want the 4th :)

Good luck and enjoy!

[Echelon]

I dont get why people think combo decks are fringe or whatever, I guess irl magic has a smaller combo meta percentage? I think your goal of being 90% and 30-40% against other decks when you can be 70% and 50% is flawed, but again preference etc. I also think the argument of "well if we run X card we might as well completely change the deck and add YZABCD and E cards too" is a bit silly/disingenuous. But if you are set on not running TS, then cut them and add 3rd deed and a rhino. Yes Rhino is besties with SoFaI/equipment. SFM and Rhino is a little like peanut butter and chocolate thanks to his trample. If you want more Rhinos, cut Tusk, Tracker, and Mere/Jitte if you really want the 4th :)

Depends on your local meta. At my LGS there usually is between 1 and 3 ANT/TES pilots, out of 20. They often get booted to the lower ranks by the big chunk of Delver/other ANT/TES unfriendly decks. If you manage to win round 1 you're usually good. If not, prepare to have a tough day. Miracles is usually between 0 and 2 out of 20 at my LGS and usually does quite well. You can't win them all I suppose.