I'm wondering if there's anybody out there that still plays a Counterburn list?
'Meaning some more lands (18-19) 4 Snapcasters and Chain Lightning alongside PoP?
Here is what i'm currently testing for my first Legacy tournament:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Lands: 17
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Mountain
Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Blood Moon
1 Flusterstorm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
Not Sure if Blood Moon is necessary (or reasonable in a 17 lands deck) and i'm still lacking a third Volcanic but i guess 2 should be enough.
Any thoughts, tips?
Greetings
Check out Andrew Schneider's lists for a good example of running a set of Snapcasters: http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?n...ew%20Schneider. He seems to have lots of success with the setup.Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel
Your list looks reasonable - one thing to consider is how you'll deal with big creatures like Gurmag Angler/Knight of the Reliquary/Tarmogoyf. Right now it looks like your only out to these is Ice to tap them. Some cards to consider: Set Adrift, Vapor Snag, Submerge, Roast. You might be able to get away without one of these, but I think having one may be better than a turn 3 Blood Moon.
Thanks for the link man.
Yea i think i can make room for 2 copies of Roast or one Roast and one Submerge by cutting those Blood Moons.
Regarding the list you suggested, is there a reason why he's running Swiftspear over YP? I know there's a difference in playstyle and the synergie between Swiftspear and burn spells but wouldn't YP be better in such a list?
Been doing very well with the deck rocking 4 Stormchaser version (decklist a few posts earlier). I've beaten a good number of tier 1 decks as well as more fringe strategies with great success. However, my miracles matchup is only around 50:50. I would really want to expend more SB slots to mitigate this but this is what I have so far:
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Pithing Needle
1 Winter Orb
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Submerge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Price of Progress
1 Blood Moon
Not sure what to cut. Also I'm seriously considering cutting the Submerge for Roast (obv. Angler and Goyf) and the Grafdigger's Cage for an Exquisite Firecraft. Please help, thanks.
Personally I am on 1x Set Adrift and 1x Roast right now. I would much prefer to be on Submerge/Vapor Snag, but I want to better answer Eldrazi which will have no Forests and Chalice to turn off 1-drops. I should add though that Roast is pretty non-standard - maybe others on the thread can chime in with their preferences.
I think this deck is enough of a burn deck that you need (at least) eight 1-drops, and Swiftspear is perfect for the role. It depends where you fall on the burn <---> tempo axis. Young Pyromancer is definitely popular in the tempo builds but more commonly replaces Stormchaser.
My board is very similar to yours in spirit, changes are personal preferences which fill a similar role:
-1 Surgical +1 Cage
-1 Sulfur Elemental +1 Rough // Tumble
-1 Pyroblast +1 Flusterstorm
-1 Pithing Needle +1 Null Rod
-1 Blood Moon +1 Exquisite Firecraft
And I'm using Roast and Set Adrift in the "big creature" slots. I think your board is very reasonable as is. I went 2-1 against Miracles at Milwaukee with this setup, bringing in 2x Vortex, Null Rod, Firecraft, and Pyroblast (taking out Force of Will/Price of Progress). I'm not sure it's possible to push it all that much above 50:50 because fundamentally they can answer our threats pretty efficiently.
Has anyone tried running Caverns in their list? Seems like every creature this deck has ever touched besides Guide is a Human, and it would be pretty nice to still be able to push threats through Chalice and Counterbalance.
Hopefully this hasn't been beaten to death. I didn't see any discussion in a quick search, but I also haven't been paying much attention to the thread for a while.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
I noticed all humans not too long ago too, lol. It makes your threats uncounterable but I don't think this deck cares too much about that. Having caverns mean PoP hurts more, can't cast daze, can't cast burn spells, so overall I would disagree with the inclusion.
What can we run for more cards? I need more cards.
I ran 2 Curiositys at my weekly this week, unfortunately I never once drew the card to judge it. Theoretically I can see this working, but more likely I see it top deck with no creature in play and/or enchanting a Stormchaser and it getting swords in response. So I've already cut it.
Legacy decks tend to shy away from running the 'Fun-Of' singleton cards.
Which is a shame, because in some matches these can make a huge difference in the outcome of the game.
Vintage is a format *forced* to run single copies of the broken cards, but there are some unrestricted cards that still see inclusion as a one-of because of the aforementioned potential for winning games you wouldn't otherwise.
I think Legacy ought to consider incorporating this approach more often, e.g. Control decks running 1x Daze for the unexpected blow out; any deck running Green with 1x Sylvan Library for the potential advantage it grants; Black decks running a 1x Toxic Deluge as a Wrath effect; and indeed, perhaps a URx deck running a single Cavern of Souls to help bash through a Counterbalance or Chalice lock.
Most competitive decks play Blue, so Brainstorm + Fetchlands are the key to both searching for and shuffling back these sort of cards.
All in all, I think it's a consideration worth testing. Try to tally up the number of times that it a) wins you the game because of its bonus, b) loses you the game because it wasn't just some other land or spell, and c) times when it really doesn't matter either way.
If 'C' outweighs 'B', then I think it's worth running even if option 'A' doesn't really present itself too frequently.
Your idea looks great on paper but need to be tested a lot... don't forget that vintage decks usually runs a plethora or tutors and powerful drawing spells that have no equals in legacy, that's why singleton have so much play: they have more impact because of a better card quality, more card quantity and tutors.
Actually I think if any deck in Legacy can abuse singletons it's this one. Between all the fetches, cantrips, and Snapcasters, you can get a ton of mileage out of a single card. Obviously that applies more to spells than anything else, but I've always liked the idea of saving a couple spots for things that are never really dead, but more situational like Forked Bolt or Vapor Snag or something.
Cavern I think is a different situation just because it is dead a lot of the time, and uses a land slot in a deck that's already cutting the manabase pretty close. Still, with Miracles and Eldrazi being on everyone's radar, I think it might be worth testing, even as a sb card.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Anybody have advice on how to beat the Show and Tell matchup (Sneak, Omni, or otherwise) with a burn-heavy Stormchaser list? I'm finding this to be very difficult because our prowess threats encourage spending mana, making it difficult to hold up countermagic like Pierce/Flusterstorm/Red Blasts without hurting our clock.
Most of the success I've had in the matchup so far is just trying to race it and win turn 4 on the play, but that requires significant luck. My issue seems to be that unlike Storm/Reanimator where I can play Cage/Surgical/Null Rod proactively, it's very hard to find proactive cards against Show and Tell in straight blue+red.
@richard cheese I probably misinterpreted the comment above. my argument was against more narrow cards that have an high impact on certain decks and near-zero to others and that can lead to an unexpected victory, like mass removals or blood moon and not about situational but never dead cards like forked bolt or vapor snag.
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A Stormchaser focused build placed 11th at Starcity Legacy Classic:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=102928
Greetings
4 Price, no Snapcaster, 16 lands...ride the lightning!
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Yeah i have to say his list looks kinda fun! Maybe i´m going to sleeve up a similar list including some chain lightnings instead of those forked bolts.
Same guy that came in 3rd at Columbus classic. I like it.
Gotta love how it's listed as Grixis Delver...
Yeah I think if I had to play a big Legacy event tomorrow, I'd just start with 4 Price and work backwards from there. Hell maybe even 1-2 Smash to Smithereens main.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Here's my current list.
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Forked Bolt
2 Gitaxian Probe
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Price of Progress
SB: 1 Gut Shot
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Electrickery
Grim Lavamancer is an easy 4-of where I live because people pretty much only play Grixis Delver, Dnt, and Shardless Bug. Kiln fiend is just my personal preference for spice (I also collect him). I don't really feel a need to sideboard much for combo if I am just killing them on turn 3 (which is often the case if kiln fiend resolves).
Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!
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