Okay, continue with your process then.
I'll be posting a list or two with a complete sideboard and plans later today for the modo challenge tomorrow (I'm saying this now so I'll actually do it)
Unrelated but funny note - I beat Belcher last night 2-0 without casting a single spell. G1 he keeps a 7 card hand and plays 3 GProbes T1 and misses one mana short to cast Empty with his burning wish and scoops. G2 he keeps 7 card hand, probes me and sees 2 TS 2 Therapy 2 lands and a pithing needle and scoops because he can't go off until T2 XD
That's how I normally beat ANT/TES - they Ad Nauseum themselves to death.Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
On the preordain, did (s)he keep both cards?
Otherwise what you propose here would have been an even worst misplay. you should not give two additional mana to storm, it is like giving them a dark ritual.
Additionally, with this line of play, you lock yourself, putting them only in a 5 turn clock with basically very little disrupt (discarding two cards and giving them 2 lands is not a lot, and Teeg is easy to answer, at least by 4-6 cards in ANT post-SB while they still have 8 cantrips to find them)
If they have a chain of vapor + gas, and you have 3 GSZ, I think the plan is not Teeg, or at least not Teeg on GSZ number 1. It is to go grab another creature you are willing to sacrifice, flashback therapy on gas (not CoV) then maybe ooze next turn and Teeg the following. Or if you fear that even after 2x discard on their combo piece they could go off quickly, grab ooze and sac DRS, next turn follow with Teeg. Here you have a better clock and control over grave.
Casting CoV is not free for them, it cost them a card and U. Discarding a combo piece instead could be good.
Do you playtest playing ANT? If not, that is probably what you should do.
Can't remember what he did with his Preordain. I had Teeg in my opening 7, I didn't get it from a GSZ (how could I otherwise have cast both Therapy AND Teeg T2?). Casting and flashbacking Therapy AND GSZ'ing for Scooze on T2 isn't possible either. His hand at that point was something along the lines of Tutor, CoV and at least 3 Petal/Ritual/LEDs and 2 more cards - I would not have lived to see T3, of that much I'm certain and with the right topdeck on his side I still would've been dead on the spot hadn't I flashbacked Therapy. Teeg had to come down on T2 and that CoV had to go too. The risk was way too big. Teeg bought me quite some time, I just whiffed on threats. I topdecked one land after the other. In the end the Storm pilot used a second CoV to not only bounce Teeg but also bounce his Lotus Petals and LED(s) to up his storm count before he made a crapton of goblins., which I couldn't answer in time. Shit happens, no need to dwell on it.
I hardly have any time to actually play MtG. Whenever I do it's either with a buddy (who does not pilot ANT) or a tournament at the LGS. Both make for poor playtesting grounds vs. anyStorm.
G2 is no reason to scoop. You have no pressure whatsoever to back up the discard so he can easily draw out of it.
I mean I needle Belcher, then shred his hand, and I will draw a threat eventually. Regardless, I don't know whats going on in his head, its his tickets and his concession. I'm not saying anyone should be gaining any insightful knowledge for the belcher matchup here :P
List ideas for the modo Legacy Challenge, feedback/criticism pl0x
Modo meta is heavy Miracles, Shardless, Delver, Eldrazi and Combo (Storm, Reanimator, Show&Tell, Elves)
Two cards like this xxx/yyy? means I'm not sure which and want an opinion.
A sideboard choice with a (?) means I'm not sure and want an opinion.
SFM Fit 61Main/15SB
4 Gsun
1 Dabor
4 Vet
2 Drs
1 Ewit
1 Tracker/Truths?
1 Meren
1 Tusk
1 Sigarda
3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 Bsk
3 Top
4 Therapy
2 TS
3 Path
3 Decay
3 Deed
21 Land
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower
SB
2 Needle
2 SurgExt
2 TS
1 Safekeeper
1 Teeg
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Abeyance
1 Rec Sage
2 ToxDeluge
1 Truths/Sorin?
SB Plans
Miracles:
Disrupt their game plan while pressuring them up the curve and maintaining card advantage.
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeepr +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +1 Rec Sage +1 Truths/Sorin
-4 Vet -1 Meren -4 Therapy -3 Path
Shardless:
Cut 1-4-1 discard that is bad in the late game for cards that generate card advantage or prevent theirs.
+2 Abeyance(?) +1 Rec Sage +2 Deluge +1 Truths/Sorin
-2 TS(?) -4 Therapy
Delver:
Answer their creatures then win with life gaining equipment/thrag tusk
+2 Deluge
-2 TS
Eldrazi:
Remove their Seer/Smasher before it hits the board, block with vet and kill everything.
+2 Deluge +2 TS +1 RecSage/Sorin? (?)
-4 Therapy -1 Tracker (?)
Storm:
Shred their hand/deck and win with equipped weenies.
+2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +1 DiabIntent +2 Abeyance +2 Deluge
-3 Path -3 Decay -1 Tracker -1 Meren -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda -1 Jitte
Reanimator:
Disrupt their combo, find karakas and win with equipped weenies
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 DiabIntent +2 Abeyance
-3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda -1 Jitte
Show&Tell:
Disrupt their combo, find karakas and win with equipped weenies
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +1 DiabIntent +2 Abeyance +1 RecSage
-3 Path -3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Jitte -1 Tracker -1 Tusk
Elves:
Slow them down & sweeeeeeep
+2 TS +1 Teeg +2 Deluge
-1 Tracker -1 Meren -1 Tusk -2 Decay (really mana efficient)
D&T:
Get your mana and kill everything
+2 Deluge +1 RecSage
-1 Meren -2 TS
Rhino Fit 61Main/15SB
4 Gsun
4 Vet
2 Drs
1 STE
1 Ewit
1 Tracker
3 Rhino
1 Meren
1 Tusk
1 Sigarda
3 Top
1 Truths
4 Therapy
2 TS
4 Path
3 Decay
1 Pulse
3 Deed
21 Land
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phy tower
1 Volrath's
SB
2 Needle
2 SurgExt
2 TS
1 Safekeeper
1 Teeg
2 Abeyance
1 RecSage
2 ToxDeluge
1 Truths/Sorin
1 ??? My sideboard plan doesn't even need this slot, super weird
SB Plans
Miracles:
Disrupt their game plan while pressuring them up the curve and maintaining card advantage.
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeepr +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +1 Rec Sage +1 Truths/Sorin +1?
-4 Vet -4 Therapy -4 Path -1 Meren
Shardless:
Cut 1-4-1 discard that is bad in the late game for cards that generate card advantage or prevent theirs.
+2 Abeyance(?) +1 Rec Sage +2 Deluge +1 Truths +1 Sorin??
-2 TS(?) -4 Therapy
Delver:
Answer their creatures then win with life gaining fatties
+2 Deluge + 1 Sorin??
-2 TS -1 Truths
Eldrazi:
Remove their Seer/Smasher before it hits the board, block with vet and kill everything.
+2 Deluge +2 TS +1 RecSage (?) +1 Sorin??
-4 Therapy -1 Truths (?)
Storm:
Shred their hand/deck and cast rhinos.
+2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +2 Deluge
-4 Path -3 Decay -1 Truths -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda
Reanimator:
Disrupt their combo and cast rhinos
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +2 Abeyance +1 Rec Sage
-3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Truths -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda
Show&Tell:
Disrupt their combo, and cast rhinos
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +1 RecSage
-4 Path -3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Truths
Elves:
Slow them down & sweeeeeeep
+2 TS +1 Teeg +2 Deluge
-1 Tusk -1 Truths -2 Decay -1 Pulse (really mana efficient)
D&T:
Get your mana and kill everything
+2 Deluge +1 RecSage
-1 Truths -2 TS
LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK AND WHICH I SHOULD PLAY. I'll be testing both tonight and tomorrow anyways.
Last edited by Jain_Mor; 05-13-2016 at 04:35 PM.
The 2nd list is better because, you know..muh rhinos.
Interesting that you decided to play safekeeper in the side and not in the main. I really don't know where to put that little guy.
2 deluge in the sb is overkill. I don't even know if 1 is needed because I'd rather have golgari charm in this world filled with elemental tokens; if you play 1 deluge instead it is not the end of the world. 2 is overkill.
2 abeyance seems a little defence against miracles. Why not 3 abeyances and 1 less deluge instead? miracles is gonna be the big dog tomorrow and you know it. Shardless will be played a lot as well.
Thanks for the response Rubblekill
Yea I like safekeeper in the side, he basically only comes in when you wanna protect a teeg.
I actually have a spare slot in the sideboard.
I don't really see a world full of elemental tokens, and golgari charm isn't anywhere near as good as deluge against all the random creature decks, midrange, merfolk etc.
If you sideboard in another card against miracles, what extra card would you take out? Currently I'm adding 12 cards and cutting 4 therapy, 4 vet and 4 path. Have to cut another card to add another.
STE? I don't know if I like it, especially in the slowest of match ups..
Maybe.. but when you cut all your vets and you only play 21 lands, and all your threats are 4 cmc (unlike the SFM build) I feel like you might want the additional ramp?
You play 3 tops..
I play 21 lands and I don't have any problem in that regard..but I play a control role and not an aggressive one in that matchup in G2-3, so that might be the reason I usually don't have mana problems (not gonna jam a rhino on t3-4 usually). I'd cut STE, but this remains your call!
I have way less experience with the Rhino build, so I will definitely defer to you here. And that being the case, then I really don't want STE in the main deck if its cuttable against miracles. I'll cut it for scooze. And side out scooze against miracles (sounds reasonable?)
I think I am the only one to side out scooze, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I board out meren and ooze for garruk and sorin, so I'd cut ooze but a lot of people here will tell you otherwise. I am not a pro player so it's not like what I say is the best thing to do.
I had a similar problem, Jain, where I just had a 15th slot that wasn't being used in any of my plans. This is what I'm looking to take to Charlotte with me for side events:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Deadly Recluse
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Painful Truths
2 Pithing Needle
3 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
3 open
Still trying to iron out the sideboard. Back to Rhinos over Angels for the moment, mostly because I wasn't happy with just how badly damaged Zenith was in the angel-heavy list. I fiercely dislike running out of Zenith targets, which happened sometimes with that deck -- it's likely that the answer is that it's just running too many spells and needs more creatures with spell-like abilities, but I don't have the time or energy to sink into that particular headache at the moment, so I'm just going to Rhino people.
When looking over my sideboard in an attempt to figure out what the 15th slot should be, I came to the conclusion that, as good as Carpet of Flowers is vs Miracles and Delver, they're only really necessary against those two decks. Back a couple years ago, they were better because Stoneblade used to exist. With Blade pushed out of the meta, they just don't come in enough. I think that for Angels, Carpet is still relevant enough to run, since it's important to the gameplan of: hit 5 mana, fist opponent with angels. For Rhinos, though, I think the effect is much less relevant, though still powerful.
Sell Abeyance to me. I understand the theory of it, but what I'm missing is the practical applications. Give me some brief scenarios where you've used it. Obviously in response to Glimpse or Ritual #3 is a great time, but I'm more unsure about Miracles. Do you just fire it off on your main phase and force them to counter it, then do something backbreaking? Do you respond to their Top draw? They still get the draw, though. I'm just not entirely seeing what makes it so great.
I currently have 10 out of a desired 13 for Miracles, so the three slots that are open yet should hopefully end up as Miracles splash, but I feel a bit light for storm, Elves/DnT, Infect, and like 1 card off from Shardless. My Miracles plan atm is -4 Vet -4 Therapy -3 Path -1 Recluse -1 Meren;;; +Sorin, +Elspeth, +Truths, +2 Grip, +3 Sgt Slaughter, +2 Needle, +3?
Abeyance checks off a lot of those boxes, and then the 15th card can be something to piss off Shardless. I just need to make sure I know what the hell I'm doing with it before I actually put it in a list.
Also, depending on the individual list, I'm getting increasingly closer to thinking that Terminus should be Slaughter #2 vs Miracles (#1 obviously is always Jace). It's attractive to systematically remove their win conditions, but realistically, we should be able to kill them quickly enough to not have to worry about Entreat or Mentor as long as they don't have Terminus to stop us from killing them, plus both Entreat and Mentor play directly into our Deeds, Decays, and Top hate anyway.
My rough opinion of decks in terms of number of cards I want for them:
Miracles: yes
Shardless: 4 [-4 Therapy, same as for vs traditional Jund/Junk]
Delver: maybe nothing? Two Painful Truths should probably be boarded out.
Lands: 5-6
Eldrazi: 3-4
DnT: 4 (Meren/Dromoka, probably shaving a Path and maybe the Taiga)
Infect: 7
Painter: 7
ANT: 7
Burn: 4
These make up the main contingent of decks that I believe we need plans for. Reanimator and Sneak/Show might still be popular online, but I believe that both of these decks are relics as far as the current paper legacy metagame goes. Yes, people will still play relics, but neither of these decks is likely to go deep (past round 5-6) at the GP. The preponderance of Grixis Delver, Miracles, and Shardless will stifle both decks, as well as the likely large numbers of Eldrazi. Eldrazi and Grixis should hold ANT's numbers down as well, so we can likely skimp there. It's worth noting, though, that an awful lot of people that play Storm decks tend to be above average pilots with their deck, so it's worth keeping it in mind, I think.
Burn and Death and Taxes will both be popular in raw numbers. I don't know how well either is likely to do, but for at least the first half of day 1, we should expect the in large quantities. There will be a dedicated contingent of Painter players looking to fist people with Blood Moon and turn 2 wins, buoyed by positive Shardless and Lands matchups, as well as I /think/ a favorable Eldrazi win rate? Infect has been doing well lately, apparently, and I expect to see a lot of budget modern converts. Whether or not the lists will be fully powered with Berserks is a crapshoot.
Miracles, Shardless, Eldrazi, Delver, and Lands are the five decks that I want to prepare the most against/for going into the event, with a modest amount of attention paid to Burn and DnT as the primary budget decks. Delver and Eldrazi should need minimal help, Shardless in the middle, Lands above that, and Miracles needs the most.
The trick is going to be finding cards that flex between Miracles and other decks. Honestly, looking at those 7 decks (and even beyond them, at Infect), Slaughter Games doesn't look great. I'm not sure how we're supposed to beat Miracles without an uncounterable answer to Jace [and Terminus], though. Sorin and Elspeth both look pretty great, Grip looks great, Needle looks great. Beyond that, I'm not sure. I'm back to being virulently anti-Teeg after my experience at Mythic last month, so I'm not on board with this whole Teeg + Safekeeper nonsense. We're not Maverick. It's a whole lot less likely that we'll assemble some semblance of reasonable clock to kill them before they recover than it was for Maverick.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings.
-------------
@Jain:
Going down from the top:
I like the Rhino list better, personally, but a large amount of that is bias against Stoneforge, so keep that in mind.
Why no Thrun in the SFM list? You look pretty threat-light, and Thrun is a great dude to suit up. Green Sun looks pretty bad in this deck, so buffing its targets a bit isn't the worst plan.
Justify maindeck Thoughtseize. I get that the modo meta is a bit more combo-based than paper is, but maindeck Thoughtseizes (costing space for Zenith targets) is a pretty steep measure. I would sooner run Safekeeper/Teeg maindeck than two Seizes, I think. They're useful in more than just combo matchups, they're bodies to carry equips, and they're Zenith targets.
3 Path/3 Decay is 1 high imo, but if you want 6 maindeck spot removal, why not use the 3rd Decay slot for a Vindicate, Unmaking, or Pulse, to diversify the suite.
No Painful Truths, in the deck with Batterskull? I guess space is a perpetual problem since the SFM package takes up so much room. That said, Tracker is better -- again, you need bodies for SFM and Zenith, and Tracker is a very above average one.
5 basics with 2 towers is greedy as all hell, I think.
Why a Diabolic Intent in the board? You have it coming in vs Storm, Reanimator, and Show/Tell, but not Elves? You don't really have anything backbreaking to grab with it -- is it just a 3rd Abeyance, basically? Like if you had a 3ball/Nether Void style of effect to grab, I could see it, but when you just have spells and Zenith bullets, and nothing that can actually lock them out of the game, I'm not following you.
On to the Rhinos.
All 4 Rhinos, but no Meren?
8 spot removal is super, super deep in the tank. I'd immediately and happily cut one of those (probably a Path) for a 2nd Painful Truths.
Same question about Thoughtseize.
Mana base looks...better...here. I don't love the Volrath's, but I've learned to ignore it.
For reference, because I think this needs gone into further:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
vs
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phy tower
1 Volrath's
Translates to:
16G 13W 13B +PhyTower +Taiga (my 22nd, which you don't have, so I just dropped it)
vs
14G 13W 13B +PhyTower +Volraths
We have the same W and B, but I have 2 [3] more green sources than you do. If you're comfortable with that, then more power to you -- but I just think the question needs to be asked. I've found not hitting a green source to be one of the most debilitating and quickest ways to lose a game, so I place a pretty high priority on it.
Related: Karakas seems better than plains #2 if you were willing to run 1 plains in the SFM list, especially if you're worried about seeing Reanimator//Show and Tell in large enough quantities to have a board plan for them.
Moving on...
Same question regarding sideboard.
Also, what do you think you want another slot for? What should the open slot turn into, do you think: matchup-based, not individual card choice.
Hope that helps, Jain.
From my point of view you should definitely try (someday):
4 Vet/2 DRS -> 4 DRS / 2 Vet
Meren -> Rhino
Tracker -> OK
Deed -> Liliana
Path to exile -> STP (except if you expect a lot of Marit Lage)
SOFI -> Courser
3 tops -> 1 top + 2 Sylvan Lib
Thragtusk -> KotR
Lands (22) 15G 15W 15B
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:
2 Needle
2 SE
1 TS
1 HTT
1 Teeg
1 Ooze
3 Abeyance
1 Rec Sage
2 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari charm
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
There are some diverse applications - though I've only used it against Storm and Miracles. Very satisfying to cast it in response to Infernal Tutor.
Against Miracles, you can fire it off during their draw or upkeep in order to prevent another Jace or Nahiri (yes I'm starting to see Nahiricles online) uptick, as well as in response to the miracles trigger in order to prevent them from casting Entreat or Terminus. I probably wouldn't use it as an anti-counter spell unless you are going to resolve something backbreaking like Choke, Tsunami, Sorin, Garruk, Sigarda, etc. Others with more experience might have more ideas.
Cheers Arianrhod, that does help.
To answer your questions/points:
Yea I think I just realised that the extra sideboard slot should probably be used for a deck that isn't listed in my plan, that's still popular.. like burn, pox, or something. I don't know. Maybe just a flexible card, or another miracles card. Ha, really don't know.
Abeyance: It seems like you missed the key interaction when you described the card, when the draw a miracle (be it eot or in their draw phase) the miracle trigger goes on the stack and says "hey, reveal this and you can play it in a second". While that trigger is on the stack you can cast abeyance and then they can no longer cast it. The miracle trigger resolves but they can't cast it, so it just ends up in their hand and they will have to find a brainstorm to stick it back and then try again next turn. It's basically a remand.
No Thrun because of space, I just like tusk, meren and tracker over him (he was in the build a month or so ago but got cut for not being good enough)
I still don't understand why everyone is so confused about TS :P Maybe it's because I come from a Junk/rock background in modern and legacy where we always play 6 or more discard effects. We live in legacy, you NEED to do something proactive T1 and you need to interact in the early game. I'm so concrete on TS and happy with its play value that I would never cut the two of them. Teeg is useless against 50+% of the meta game TS is useful against 100% of the meta.
I recently cut the truths for another removal spell after stuggling against eldrazi a few times and just wishing I had more removal in hand against delver.
I've played with 5 basics for a long time now, and found it be bare minimum, but good enough. The second tower would become a Marsh flats before another basic I think (and that would help with the mana problems you mention later)
Diabolic intent is to fetch karakas and teeg/safekeeper in their respective matchups. I could cut it (and the karakas) and have a free slot.
RHINOS
4 Rhinos and no Meren because I don't want two 5 drops and five 4 drops. I added volrath's to compensate lack of meren. I guess I can cut a meren for a rhino to diversify (she wins a lot of games..) and then that gives me the extra slot to cut against miracles too. Cheers for the thoughts.
8 removal because I really don't want to lose to Eldrazi AND miracles, plus secure the delver and tribal matchups etc.
ie the game plan is to kill everything and then play fatties. Playing lots of removal spells is half of that plan.
Thanks again for the post, it does help.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post944527
And I'm surely missing some nasty tricks along the way.
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
Using it in response to the Miracle trigger is a good one. That's an application I wasn't thinking of, probably /the/ application.
And yeah, I've been seeing the uptick of Nahiricles in popularity as well. I'm not really sure what to think of it, to be perfectly honest.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
