[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[Whitefaces]

So I hope this threat gets some revival back in the DTB section.

I want to rebuild my Sideboeard by also cutting the Meddling mages, because I think even though they are good, they don't justify 4 SB slots anymore because Storm is pushed down by eldrazi.


@ironclad: I looked at your SB but it seems really light vs combo now!?

Meddling Mages aren't just for Storm, it's any combo. If you're running discard in the maindeck then you may not need them, but if you're not then you need very high impact cascades.

Storm is absolutely still about too, at least here in Europe. There's consistently been a copy in almost every top 8 at the major events, usually more.

Here's my current list with some SBing notes if anyone is interested, it's most likely what I take to GP Prague.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
1 Life from the Loam
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Scrubland
4 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

Miracles
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Wasteland

If on Mentor/heavy Snaps and Cliques additionally
+1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
-1 Wasteland

Lands
+1 Scrubland
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Leyline of the Void
+2 Duress
+1 Pithing Needle
-4 Ancestral Vision
-2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Baleful Strix
-2 Abrupt Decay

Grixis Delver
+1 Scrubland
+2 Duress
+1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

RUG Delver
+1 Scrubland
+2 Duress
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

BUG Delver
+2 Duress
-2 Force of Will

Storm
+1 Scrubland
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Leyline of the Void
+2 Duress
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Null Rod
+1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
-1 Swamp
-4 Tarmogoyf
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 Life from the Loam
-4 Abrupt Decay

Mirror
No changes

Elves
+1 Scrubland
+4 Meddling Mage
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Duress
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
-1 Swamp
-2 Deathrite Shaman
-4 Tarmogoyf
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 Life from the Loam

Death and Taxes
+1 Scrubland
+1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
-4 Force of Will

Eldrazi
No changes

[James718]

I am new to this deck, the lists vary greatly and it's a little confusing. SOme lists run Hymns, some use thoughtseizes some don't even run discard. I see lists with no jaces, no lillis, both of them, some lists have a garruk. Im a little confused here and looking for direction. how do i decide on what to play? Is this just preference?

[ironclad8690]

It is pretty much just preference. Some people like that have the greatest chance vs combo, so their lists contain more discard, whereas others prefer to try to beat up on fair decks, so they run more planeswalkers and sweepers. It is really up to you.

[MorphBerlin]

Meddling Mages aren't just for Storm, it's any combo. If you're running discard in the maindeck then you may not need them, but if you're not then you need very high impact cascades.

Storm is absolutely still about too, at least here in Europe. There's consistently been a copy in almost every top 8 at the major events, usually more.

Here's my current list with some SBing notes if anyone is interested, it's most likely what I take to GP Prague.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

4 Ancestral Vision
1 Life from the Loam
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Scrubland
4 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Ror

Elves
+1 Scrubland
+4 Meddling Mage
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Duress
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
-1 Swamp
-2 Deathrite Shaman
-4 Tarmogoyf
-3 Baleful Strix
-1 Life from the Loam

Eldrazi
No changes

I have been playing the deck for months now but thank you for explaining to me again that Meddling mage is not just for storm and how MD discard works. Obviously you need them because this list is what 5-95 G1 vs storm? NOSB seems like a wasted slot in the MU because when they empty they empty on the first or second turn to overun you in my experience. And with 2 Deluge and 1 NOSB this seems really overkill. I would much rather fight their ability to storm of. And i would never take out all Tarmos, because representing a significant clock is really important

Your list seems really weak against miracles without hymns,sylvan library or Tar pit. You are leaning heavily on the 2 Jaces vs them right?

Dures vs lands seems skethy. It is only good turn 1 or 2 I would imagine, and is really a bad draw after that.

Against all delver decks the lack of additional spot removal in the SB seems like a liability, you cant lean on resolving Deluge and NoSB in my experience in this MUs especially with running only 1 Basic (which is also bad vs Blood Moon and Lands)

Against elves the Duress seems bad, most of them are taking out NO or are allready on a grindy plan (chaos elves) and then you have only GSZ as a target. I dont like boarding out all goys or even DRS here too, because while it is true that it can be easily be chumped/blanked, you need something to finish the game? Or are you trying to strictly go for the Jace ultimate?

[ironclad8690]

I dont like bearding out all goys

I, personally, am a fan of bearding out all goyfs

[MorphBerlin]

I, personally, am a fan of bearding out all goyfs

[Whitefaces]

I have been playing the deck for months now but thank you for explaining to me again that Meddling mage is not just for storm and how MD discard works. Obviously you need them because this list is what 5-95 G1 vs storm? NOSB seems like a wasted slot in the MU because when they empty they empty on the first or second turn to overun you in my experience. And with 2 Deluge and 1 NOSB this seems really overkill. I would much rather fight their ability to storm of. And i would never take out all Tarmos, because representing a significant clock is really important

Your list seems really weak against miracles without hymns,sylvan library or Tar pit. You are leaning heavily on the 2 Jaces vs them right?

Duress vs lands seems sketchy. It is only good turn 1 or 2 I would imagine, and is really a bad draw after that.

Against all delver decks the lack of additional spot removal in the SB seems like a liability, you cant lean on resolving Deluge and NoSB in my experience in this MUs especially with running only 1 Basic (which is also bad vs Blood Moon and Lands)

Against elves the Duress seems bad, most of them are taking out NO or are allready on a grindy plan (chaos elves) and then you have only GSZ as a target. I dont like boarding out all goys or even DRS here too, because while it is true that it can be easily be chumped/blanked, you need something to finish the game? Or are you trying to strictly go for the Jace ultimate?

Apologies, that came across more condescending than I realised! Didn't mean to state the obvious so...well, obviously

IMO boarding for combo is about maximising cascades. While NosB isn't ideal, it is still another 'answer' to Empty, Dark Confidant and Xantid Swarm (though I doubt this comes in vs us) and can't be cascaded into. This is the reason to take out Tarmogoyf (straight swap for Meddling Mage) as you want that dice to roll in your favour. Cascading into Goyf is just miserable as it doesn't disrupt them at all and you're still adding some pressure to the board in the form of Agent.

After board vs storm this is the curve under 3 for agent to hit.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Meddling Mage
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod

I've not had a problem with Miracles using this list, you can out grind them without Hymn and Library just by playing patiently.

Discard vs lands on the draw is a lot worse than on the play, granted, but they're always siding into more non-land cards (Molten Vortex, Krosan Grip, Choke, Abrupt Decay possibly) and forcing a Crop Rotation is pretty big. I didn't used to bring discard in vs lands but was surprised how effective it is.

The deck is pretty well set up to beat delver already, you think there should be more removal? 4 Decay, 3 Strix, 1 Pulse, 2 Liliana and 2 Deluge seems like a lot.

The one basic is a concern, I may add a forest. That skews the mana quite a lot though, would have to be something like.

4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

And the Scrubland in the SB becomes a Savannah.

Does Elves side out Natural Order vs Shardless? We only have Force of Will to counter it, seems great vs us. In my experience they side out some number of Heritage Druids, Nettle Sentinels, Birchlore Rangers etc.

DRS looks ridiculous vs theirs and goyf is blanked by Symbiote or Ranger + Dryad Arbor. Scooze + cradle even more so.

[halahel]

I am new to this deck, the lists vary greatly and it's a little confusing. SOme lists run Hymns, some use thoughtseizes some don't even run discard. I see lists with no jaces, no lillis, both of them, some lists have a garruk. Im a little confused here and looking for direction. how do i decide on what to play? Is this just preference?

It depends on your meta and/or what you expect to play against. It also depends on the match-ups you fear/struggle with. I've played Shardless since 2014, and I've gone through a few different permutations. I now lean toward a more discard-heavy build, as I want the deck to have a fighting chance Game 1 against Combo. You'll often see builds constructed to beat Miracles (main-deck Sylvan, 2 Jace), or "fair" creature decks (one or more main-deck toxic deluge), etc.

What's great about Shardless is that, unlike a lot of tiered Legacy decks, you can very much customize it to your personal taste and play-style.

[MorphBerlin]

Apologies, that came across more condescending than I realised! Didn't mean to state the obvious so...well, obviously

The deck is pretty well set up to beat delver already, you think there should be more removal? 4 Decay, 3 Strix, 1 Pulse, 2 Liliana and 2 Deluge seems like a lot.

The one basic is a concern, I may add a forest. That skews the mana quite a lot though, would have to be something like.

4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

No offense taken :)

Vs delver (and DnT): The only reliable removal of this list is Decay, because I feel it can be difficult to get to 3 Mana for 5 of the removal spells (actually even 4 because of Daze). Strix can be boltet. Lili can be blacked by YP, so they is not that reliable. And decaying will expose you to wasteland without a forest (for strix you need 1 dual at least also), wich seems to make it hard to get to the follow up 3cmc removal.

Disfigure or Dismember is just so good vs them, answering their first threat or Angler and being hard to daze it buys a lot of time for the bigger removal spells.

So I am curious how you typically win vs elves, Jace? Tarmo is also good on defense because you dont have to worry about Nettle slowly pickung you life total.

What do you dislike of the "normal' Manabase?:

3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Delta
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

+Scrub from SB

[ironclad8690]

2-3 in another league.

Grixis Delver: 2-0
BUG Delver: 2-1
Eldrazi: 1-2
Manaless Dredge: 1-2
Burn: 0-2

[ironclad8690]

2-3 again

RW Stax: 1-2
Grixis Delver: 2-0
BUG Delver: 0-2
ANT: 2-1
ANT: 0-2

[ironclad8690]

Put Thoughtseizes back in the maindeck just to get a change of pace. Went 3-2

Miracles: 0-2 (Nahiri version, couldn't pressure Nahiri fast enough)
Miracles: 2-0 (regular version)
Miracles: 2-0 (regular version)
Dragon Stompy: 2-0
Sneak and Show: 1-2

I did enjoy Thoughtseizes a couple times vs Miracles, opening on t1 taking a Top 1 game and clearing the way for Jace in the 2nd game

[ironclad8690]

So I tried doing things that I didn't understand/hated that other people do (moved Toxic Deluge to the sideboard etc) and ended up with this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge

Maybe it's a coincidence, but I am now 4-0 with this list vs Eldrazi, Miracles (AnziD, who said I broke his 13 match winning streak against shardless. They were a very close 3 games!), Grixis Delver, and UR Delver. I hope I win that last one and get the elusive 5-0!

[btm10]

Sweet, good luck finishing up. Have the MD changes come up at all?

Also, I'm increasingly convinced that the Liliana slots are better as Maelstrom Pulse and Thoughtseize postboard against Miracles.
Those cards just do the things I'm hoping that Liliana will accomplish - removing random permanents and forcing key spells like Jace through - and aren't nearly as susceptible to bad interactions with Flash creatures, nor do they fight with our core game plan of never running out of gas while holding up Force for Ruination/Entreat/From the Ashes. The discard spells are bad late game topdecks, but we want to hit at least 6 land drops against Miracles, so Brainstorming excess discard away in the mid-to-late game is a completely reasonable line and has the added benefit of letting us play out our lands, which is especially important if you're running Tar Pits.

[ironclad8690]

Sweet, good luck finishing up. Have the MD changes come up at all?

Also, I'm increasingly convinced that the Liliana slots are better as Maelstrom Pulse and Thoughtseize postboard against Miracles.
Those cards just do the things I'm hoping that Liliana will accomplish - removing random permanents and forcing key spells like Jace through - and aren't nearly as susceptible to bad interactions with Flash creatures, nor do they fight with our core game plan of never running out of gas while holding up Force for Ruination/Entreat/From the Ashes. The discard spells are bad late game topdecks, but we want to hit at least 6 land drops against Miracles, so Brainstorming excess discard away in the mid-to-late game is a completely reasonable line and has the added benefit of letting us play out our lands, which is especially important if you're running Tar Pits.

Thanks!

The maindeck changes have come up, having 2 Tar Pit and 2 Wasteland feels like a nice balance. I know people, myself included, have been on the 3 wasteland 1-2 tar pit split, but 2 and 2 feels the smoothest.

I have really enjoyed Jace 2 given the amount of Miracles I face. He definitely eats a REB postboard vs Miracles, but through AV, Force, Tar Pit, AND Jace, we spread those REBs quite a bit. Heck sometimes they even have to REB a shardless to keep a jace alive/not take lethal.

You know, Gerry T played a Liliana-less list in the MOCS and I am wondering if it is the way to go right now.

Here is his list for reference:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
1 Baleful Strix
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Disfigure
2 Pithing Needle
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sylvan Library
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm

[ironclad8690]

Woohoo! 5-0 after beating Storm in 2 games :)

There is a matchup where having a Thoughtseize game 1 to Brainstorm into is really good. Also the more I play that matchup the more I realize just having a DRS up with a black mana on their turn makes it super awkward for them to try to go off.

I think I might try this list in the upcoming Card Kingdom tourney this weekend :) Feels super consistent and hits all the right spots (Miracles, Grixis Delver g2 & g3 feel decent 55% while g1 still feels 45%, Eldrazi is nice, etc). I am really liking 4 Thoughtseize g2-3 vs combo decks as well.

[Ephemeron]

Woohoo! 5-0 after beating Storm in 2 games :)

There is a matchup where having a Thoughtseize game 1 to Brainstorm into is really good. Also the more I play that matchup the more I realize just having a DRS up with a black mana on their turn makes it super awkward for them to try to go off.

I think I might try this list in the upcoming Card Kingdom tourney this weekend :) Feels super consistent and hits all the right spots (Miracles, Grixis Delver g2 & g3 feel decent 55% while g1 still feels 45%, Eldrazi is nice, etc). I am really liking 4 Thoughtseize g2-3 vs combo decks as well.

Nice! Congrats on the 5-0. List looks pretty close to mine except I'm still having to use Life from the Loam in the board because here on the east coast Lands (and to a lesser extent Aggro Loam) is everywhere. If I were to do an online league though I'd drop it for sure though.

I don't get the 1 basic land in GerryT's list. Having a single basic swamp isn't going to do shit to keep you from losing to Blood Moon or Wasteland except in magical christmas land where Miracles has no way of dealing with your DRS before they Moon you. I'm sure Gerry has forgotten more about Shardless than I've ever known, but I'm just kinda missing the deckbuliding philosophy there. I think the deck either needs Forest and Swamp or no basics at all.

[ironclad8690]

Nice! Congrats on the 5-0. List looks pretty close to mine except I'm still having to use Life from the Loam in the board because here on the east coast Lands (and to a lesser extent Aggro Loam) is everywhere. If I were to do an online league though I'd drop it for sure though.

I don't get the 1 basic land in GerryT's list. Having a single basic swamp isn't going to do shit to keep you from losing to Blood Moon or Wasteland except in magical christmas land where Miracles has no way of dealing with your DRS before they Moon you. I'm sure Gerry has forgotten more about Shardless than I've ever known, but I'm just kinda missing the deckbuliding philosophy there. I think the deck either needs Forest and Swamp or no basics at all.

Yeah, it is even more interesting to me that he decided to cut liliana, one of the reasons to even play a swamp in the first place because of BB (also Hymn), and then cuts the forest. I have found that forest is way more important than swamp, but swamp at least lets you fetch into un-wastelandable decay mana.

[nantukoavatar]

Hey guys it has been a few weeks, work has been crazy but tonight I had a play testing party with 5 other guys. I was talking about Meddling Mage, I like what it does in theory but I was screwed a few times by not naming the right card, or by the mana. Having a trop, scrub, and waste means you can't cast shardless.

With that in mind a friend suggested Arcane Laboratory. Has anyone tested with this? It seems like it would be just better than Mage in a lot of causes. I get that coming down a turn slower is a real cost against combo, but getting to open up a slot in your board to not play a land is a real benefit.

Without any testing, it seems like it would be better against decks like elves, storm, and tin fins to name a few. The nice thing is that it shuts down cantrips, and makes our force uncounterable. It is also more forgiving when you might not know which sideboard tech they have.

Anyway wondering what the groups thought is.

[Ephemeron]

Arcane Lab is legit, I used to play it when storm was one of the most popular decks in legacy. Eldrazi's uprising has kinda kept Storm in check recently though so I've dropped it. If you're expecting to face a lot of those decks you mentioned though, it's a great card for sure since it's impossible for them to win if you have it in play. If you didn't totally hate the white splash you could also try Ethersworn canonist since you can actually cascade into that and it doesn't stop Shardless cascade.