[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[Tom4ik]

I honestly dont think most ppl play daze in these decks. you are a worse daze deck than stifle bug delver but you pick up things like snapcaster and tnn that shardless doesnt run. here is the list I played wed for reference.

3 wasteland
2 creeping tar pit
2 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
3 verdant catacombs
3 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
1 forest
1 swamp

4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
3 snapcaster mage
2 baleful strix
2 true-name nemesis

2 liliana of the veil
1 jace, the mind sculptor
1 sylvan library
2 painful truths
2 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
2 hymn to tourach
1 umezawa's jitte
1 maelstrom pulse
4 abrupt decay


sideboard
3 thoughtseize
2 spell pierce
2 surgical extraction
1 thrun, the last troll
1 baleful strix
1 jace, the mind sculptor
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 krosan grip
1 disfigure
1 life from the loam


I think this deck is very versatile. More so than either delver or shardless. This deck can go longer than delver by having actual CA spells and things like jitte/tnn to break open stalls. It is also better against combo by having ts and surgical plus snap. Might be less swingy than shardless because you cant blow the games open but hard to find a deck this doesnt have a good shot at. eh.

[Tom4ik]

-Double Post-
Played in a $20 entry tourny today. Used the above list but moved library side and put 1 TS main. Changed disfigure to deed.

Rd 1 - Esper
Gm 1 decay on sfm lets goyf beats in. He floods and gets jitte plus skull. I find my jitte and goyf being bigger lets me stall until I get a tnn and close it out.
Gm 2 Mull to 6 and then Rip shuts off my drs and goyf. Lily buys time and then we get dueling jaces. Meddling mage and sfm pressure couldnt beat the pair of walkers and jace ult ended it after I put some creatures in play to block.

Rd 2 - Burning Reanimator
Gm 1 Drs on the play, turn 2 ts & hymn and he cant recover. Goyf ended the game pretty quick after.
Gm 2 hand was 3 fetches, snap, force,surgical hymn. He unmasks me a few times but surgical plus a pierce keep him from putting anything together.

Rd 3 - Bug delver
Gm 1 He gets delver and goyf but I remove them. He gets a Tnn (didnt realize they play those main) we trade forces but he is ahead in the race. His hand was all dudes with a force. Just ran out of removal too fast.
Gm 2 He keeps a 1 lander. Turn 1 drs into turn 2 waste goyf. He has a delver that eats a decay and he eventually gets a few land but is way behind on the board that he dies to a goyf left standing.
Gm 3 I keep a land heavy opener. He gets a turn 1 drs which I decay after 1 activation. Lily eats a goyf, I get strix + tnn but he eot decays strix and plays a lily of his own. We each tick up a few times but he decays mine. Then I draw a life from the loam with 2 CTP in the yard. 1 hit on lily puts it out of ult range and wear out his waste in play and just tar pit him.

We have a cut after 4 rds to top 8 so at 3-0-1 I draw and skip to top 8.

Qtr- Dnt
Gm 1 I lead on Drs into goyf. He starts of slow with vial into mom. Decay is able take out mom and that lets me get an active jitte. I find a tnn and he loses 2 turns later.
Gm 2 I keep fetch/waste 2 drs hand. Play out both of the drs but waste has no targets and he plays rip. I get wasted/ported out. Cant find any more land and with me stuck on 2 land I do not have anything to do about the skull.
Gm 3 Mull to 6 but land an early library. Got to 10 before he has touched me with some fetches and truths. I have multiple decays to answer early revokers. I save a charm to hit a thalia. I land a deed but he CJ it and it leaves me naked. He gets crusader which puts me to 1. I have 1 turn to draw smth, I hit Tnn 3 down play it. He finds sfm which gets a Sofi. I again need an answer. Find grip. I let him equip and send which blows him out. He loses the rest his board some trades on the attack and now I am leftwith the better board. I close the game out with a tarpit plus Tnn. Very close.

Semi- Uwr Blade
Gm 1 he keeps hand with very little land. I get to Drs into goyf+waste. Keep him off white for 2 turns while I bash. He removes goyf and I untap and land jace with force backup for his. I dig into 2 more goyfs and he cant keep up on 2 land.
Gm 2 Open a good hand but he has a tnn early with force back up. I have useless removal and cannot find lily fast enough. ended the game with like 5-6 cards in hand but just hand disruption,forces and decays. Sometimes the Tnn just goes the distance.
Gm 3 is one of the oddest games I have played. I mull to a 6 of land, land, Drs, pulse, grip,decay. That hand did not seem like a winner but I keep. Drs gets removed and I draw some more land. He just lays land and passes a few turns. I draw and play a jace he forces. I draw and play jace he pitches another to force again. He plays his own jace. I pulse and he forces a 3rd time...uhhh ok? So I have nothing in play and a hand of decay + Grip. I try to tar pit the jace but that gets Stp. He lands Elspeth (hmm, so this game is over). I ptruth into some discard and force to keep him from advancing more. I find another truth. He makes some tokens and bs. He cliques me which I force. hymn hislast card (Reb) and snap pulse his elspeth I then get a Tnn into play then I play Thrun. His next turn he swings into Thrun and then verdicts. I regen thrun. He moons which I use charm on leaving me empty. Find tar pit. Finally take out on turn 15 a turn 5 jace. He is at 11 so 2 turn clock. Finds nothing. I am unsure how I won that game. I shouldnt have and I wish I could go back and watch from his side as he had all the tools but I somehow stole that. Ptruths OP I guess.

I split the finals to get back home after picking up some modern stuff.

[Ricardio]

Stock list
3-0-1

UB Tezz/Foundry (Leyline/Helm postboard)
g1: I lose to thopter sword. Academy ruins to prevent my decay from doing much but slowing him down a turn.
g2: t3 jtms and power through with goyfs and tnn
g3: t3 jtms, waste him out while fatesealing. 6/7 goyfs win

DnT (fk this deck)
g1: he assembles wisp with sword FI and that's that.
g2: I get a timely g charm to kill thalia and then grind him out
g3: I get to hymn double cataclysm (SCHA-WING!) and he has stoneforge/batterskull attacking me. I get tnn and clique down followed by ctp to 3 him out.

RG 12 post
g1: I t1 seize, t2 hymn and t3 lotv. he lives through 2 lily ults and then gets done away by a huge goyf
g2: I seize. he wails my hymn. double wasteland. I hymn and it resolves. he discards emrakul and shuffles back in 2 posts. draws running cloudposts into blightsteel. next stop, frown town.
g3: hymn, fow, waste. t3 tnn that went all the way.

DnT ID

TOP 4 SPLIT.

Didn't see jitte all day so I never got to live the dream. Deck felt immensely strong and I felt like even though I made quite a few mistakes, the deck made up for it.

[Ricardio]

Played in sunday legacy.

2-1 Belcher
g1: t1 empty for 18 goblins. rekt
g2: I double fow him. Negate his second attempt. close out with massive goyfs
g3: he mulls to 5. I keep 7: duress, hymn, strix, fow, 3 lands. I hit goyf and he concedes to lily.

0-2 BUG Delver
g1: t1 drs, t2 hymn and delver and I feel like its over. SPOILER: it was.
g2: I stabilize and then draw 5 lands in a row. #value

0-2 DNT
g1: t1 mom, t2 SFM for Sofi, t3 mirran crusader (cant beat that card)
g2: t1 vial, t2 thalia, t3 Mirran crusader (still cant beat this card)

2-0 UB Tezzafacts
G1: I waste him a few times and hymn once. Pulse tezz. Goyfs bigger than his lodestones.
g2: I mull to 4 but he lets me stay at 6 because the match doesn't matter. I t2 hymn, t3 hymn, apologize after hitting mostly lands and drs carrying jitte wins through bridge. (Thanks Tom)

Variance got the better of me. I understand TNN blocks crusader but SOFI is a major problem and if I don't have both, I lose to MC.

I am going to work on BUG standstill this week, hopefully. I imagine now is a great time so I will see how wrong I am.

[Ricardio]

I built Bugstill and ran it at my local sunday legacy. had around 20 people I think so 5 rounds.

R1 DNT Billy
G1: I get to t1 drs, t2 ponder, standstill. He plays out a bunch of threats and then a revoker naming deed. I lose.
G2: He had to defensively cataclysm but kept a port and I wasted it. then he drew a vial and I decayed it. I drew lands and rebuilt with drs while he did nothing.
G3: 2 standstills and a deed later, im sitting with jtms and a manland going at it. he cant recover.
2-1

R2 Miracles Brendan
G1: t2 I caught his top when he fetches and opts to shuffle it away. t3 lily. One to terminus my lumbering falls(should be CTP) Lily ult him for fetch, cb and top. he keep 2 island and a plains. I play second lily on the same turn and he concedes.
G2:He resolves a blood moon and I just cant even. (now we know its a hole in the deck)
G3: He breaks 2 standstills, reluctantly. I land jtms and garruk relentless. He judgements jtms. I land lotv, he snaps back CJ. I play second lily, he concedes. "Too many planeswalkers." -Brendan
2-1

R3 Esperblade
G1: I t1 seize his brainstorm instead of his seize. he t2 sfm, I force. this game was vague.
G2: I t2 standstill and we play draw go for about 6-7 turns. he breaks with seize and I have 10 nonland cards. he takes brainstorm. I seize and go to planeswalker town after this weird dance with his Gideon, ally of Z. he dies in planeswalker town.
2-0

R4 Know n Tell (Pair down)
G1: He t2 show n tell, I force. He t3 show n tell, I die to emrakul off omniscience.
G2: t3 negate his show and tell, he has double force and im dead to release the ants.
0-2 (this is a bad matchup, we fixed the sideboard later)

R5 Esperdeathblade Andres
We ID to secure our credit.

The list:

4 DRS
1 V Clique

2 JTMS
2 Lotv
1 Garruk Relentless

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Standstill
4 Deed
3 Decay
1 Life from the loam
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize

1 island
1 swamp
4 verdant
4 delta
3 sea
2 bayou
1 trop
3 waste
2 factory
1 CTP
1 L Falls

SB
2 duress
2 surgical
2 nihil spellbomb
2 disfugre
2 negate
1 thrun
2 gurmag angler
1 golgari charm
1 Library

The deck felt super strong and I will be making changes to it going forward. I am very excited on how it felt in the meta as I anticipate playing all these decks at gp Columbus.

[ScottW]

You should post in the BUG Landstill thread. It needs revitalization. I'd be interested to hear about the changes you're making.

[Ricardio]

You should post in the BUG Landstill thread. It needs revitalization. I'd be interested to hear about the changes you're making.

Theres a thread?!

[H]

So, I've been kind of bummed out on playing Delver. It just has been very lackluster for me of late, the Tempo-esque nature just not really working in my local meta. Daze has been a cruel, cruel mistress and so I needed to do something different. I didn't want to play Shardless because I don't like what it does to my sideboard (and I wanted to try out Invasive Surgery).

I decided I still wanted to do something BUG, so I looked around until I found a list that basically had what I wanted to play and none of what I didn't.

Using sdematt's list, I changed a few cards (like +1 Liliana, -1 Jace and added a couple Baleful Strix in case I saw Eldrazi) and just 3 Painful Truths and 1 Library as my card draw. Ran it Friday night and it felt very good. Top decks were pretty strong, exactly has I wanted them to be. Went 3-0-1, beating Grixis Delver, Miracles, and TES. Took a draw in the last round versus a BW tokens deck because I was tired and already lock for top 4. Only once did I "have" to cast a Truths for only 2 cards, but I had a second in my hand and I wanted to dig for that next land.

Any one else been trying out Truths lately? It seems pretty decent, if you are in a match up that allows the life-loss. Invasive Surgery never really got used, except once to pitch to a Force that I had to cast to not get Venser-Karakas locked.

[Tom4ik]

I have been playing a 2ptruths/1sylvan library deck right now. I also have 3 snapcasters so that helps recast in the longer games where more CA is needed. I am actually thinking a 3rd truth is better than library. I just have not been as impressed with that card in the main deck. DRS plus I run 2 Tnn and jitte main so I do have some life gain.

[H]

I have been playing a 2ptruths/1sylvan library deck right now. I also have 3 snapcasters so that helps recast in the longer games where more CA is needed. I am actually thinking a 3rd truth is better than library. I just have not been as impressed with that card in the main deck. DRS plus I run 2 Tnn and jitte main so I do have some life gain.

Yeah, 3 might have been too many with Library. Library is slow, but it does afford some advantage when you life-total is a liability. I also like that oppoents are apt to destroy it and that just makes 'Goyf bigger. More testing needed really.

I had thoughts of getting a Jitte in the main, but I actually meant to play 3 Force and fit it, but forgot. Perhaps next time I will try it. Obviously TNN and Jitte are real good, but even having Strix with it can be good, I would think, letting me fly over Elves and other nonsense.

Oh and Deathtouch wolves are hilariously good. One game I ended up with 8 of them. Nice Gurmag Angler bro,

[Ricardio]

I played in a challenge at gp charlotte with bug control. list was thrown together with 2 deeds main due to poor decisions and time constraint.

I went 2-2: beating mono red sneak attack and elves, losing to Grixis countertop and this strange abzan midrange tokens with deeds mainboard. The deck felt strong just had some poor variance and a few poor decisions.

I wasn't running pruths and I had a library side. 3 jtms, 3 lily, 1 gar-rel mb. Definitely changes I want to make. I love deed but in conjunction with decay, I just lose to angler and tombstalker. I would like to try like a mcut or something to deal with them. I have an IQ sunday so I will try to draft up a list and bounce ideas off you gentlemen/ladies.

I played a few matches of food chain over the weekend and came to the conclusion that baleful strix is very strong atm and we need some number of them in our 75.
I am not a big fan of tnn or agent in this deck because it causes us to make some decisions for the maindeck that I don't necessarily want to advocate.

[H]

I played a few matches of food chain over the weekend and came to the conclusion that baleful strix is very strong atm and we need some number of them in our 75.
I am not a big fan of tnn or agent in this deck because it causes us to make some decisions for the maindeck that I don't necessarily want to advocate.

Yeah, I am really like Strix, even if he never did do anything in the games I played. Had I faced Eldrazi though, I could see it being very good.

I liked having 1 TNN, he won me a game versus Miracles (opponent drew 3 Swords and a Snapcaster, TNN was all that was left). Definitely a non-bo with Toxic Deluge, but if you have TNN and Strix out, it's doubtful you'll need to Deluge.

[Ricardio]

Yeah, I am really like Strix, even if he never did do anything in the games I played. Had I faced Eldrazi though, I could see it being very good.

I liked having 1 TNN, he won me a game versus Miracles (opponent drew 3 Swords and a Snapcaster, TNN was all that was left). Definitely a non-bo with Toxic Deluge, but if you have TNN and Strix out, it's doubtful you'll need to Deluge.

I can agree with that to a degree. TNN seems best in the bolt/sfm decks where it gets additional reach from the cards around it where as we don't turn the corner as hard and our reach isn't infinite.

[H]

I can agree with that to a degree. TNN seems best in the bolt/sfm decks where it gets additional reach from the cards around it.

I can't argue that, you are right, but he still serves a role here, I think, even if you don't run Jitte (I didn't). There is still a good amount of virtual card advantage to be had by playing a threat that they can't block or target. If there was a better three power, unblockable, hexproof creature, I'd play it, no doubt, but that's what we have...

[Tom4ik]

The other thing to remember is that we do have reach with CTP and DRS. With Tnn and those other cards we do have a fair amount of unblockable damage. I run jitte so that also help suiting up. If your deck runs strix those also help with the incremental damage plan. I have been running a 1 of Thrun in the board as well as having just another big dumb beater has been helpful.

[Ricardio]

My issue is that I don't want to fight them with creatures to give their removal targets. I can understand TNN and strix bc one is near unkillable and the second is basically removal/virtual CA. I love goyf but not in this deck. I want to make them deal with my PWs and attack from a different angle. I also hate how much goyf and drs lean on the gy, especially when my opp slams rip. I am currently at 7 pw and 1 CTP. im fairly certain 4 strix is correct atm seeing as it brickwalls eldrazi and other annoyances. I am going to look into playing more stack action like counterspells so I lean less on decay and lily.

[H]

My issue is that I don't want to fight them with creatures to give their removal targets. I can understand TNN and strix bc one is near unkillable and the second is basically removal/virtual CA. I love goyf but not in this deck. I want to make them deal with my PWs and attack from a different angle. I also hate how much goyf and drs lean on the gy, especially when my opp slams rip. I am currently at 7 pw and 1 CTP. im fairly certain 4 strix is correct atm seeing as it brickwalls eldrazi and other annoyances. I am going to look into playing more stack action like counterspells so I lean less on decay and lily.

Indeed, your approach then is more control than mid-range. There are really two schools of thought here though, even if we put aside the midrange-control duality, in regards to 'Goyf and things like RiP, or 'Goyf and spot removal.

One idea is to run 'Goyf, even when your opponent has RiP, because he is so good, that if they are leaning on it, you can make them have it. If they don't, they are screwed. If they tag you with it, as long as you can get rid of it, you can rebuild the yard pretty reasonably.

Second would be to not run 'Goyf at all. This avoids the issue entirely, gives you an advantage in no having to "play that game" and so no being blown out by a RiP (or similar), however, you are not forcing your opponent into sideboarding and applying no pressure to their mulligan decisions.

Either is valid, they are just very different approaches. Running 'Goyf is a quicker win-con, while being more vulnerable (but applies pressure to your opponent's mulligan decisions). Not running 'Goyf gives you a more "stable" less "answerable" win-con, but at the cost of being slower and less mana-efficient.

On the other side, say, versus spot removal, or even mass removal, the same sort of applies, but in a different way. If you ran 'Goyf, you force them to have removal and to keep it in at all times, or lose. The bonus here as well is that the spot removal only covers a portion of your win-cons. So if they keep in 4 Swords and 3 Terminus, because 'Goyf, well, none of that answers Jace or Liliana.

By not running 'Goyf and just planeswalkers, you don't have the risk of running a creature "heavy" draw in to possibly removal "heavy" draw from you opponent, however, again, your win-conditions are slower and less mana-efficient and you are allowing them to "get away with" not running removal.

Of course this is all super high-level theory, in the sense that it's an abstraction based on possible outcomes. In real life there are more concerns, like "how prevalent is RiP in your meta?" In other words, this is a shit-load of words to say, your approach is valid, but other approaches can be valid too. In reality, it comes down to play-style and meta-expectations.

Personally, I like stretching my opponent in every direction. I want them to have to have all the answers, all the time, so I like diverse threats. I accept the risk and susceptibility that presents, because on the balance it tends to favor me. Of course, there are those days where I go to a tournament and face a deck with multiple RiP every round, but dem' da' breaks.

[Tom4ik]

I run 4 goyf, 4 drs, 3 snap caster. I lean very hard on the GY game 1. Post board against SFM decks that are likely to bring in RIP I board out some number of goyfs. I usually bring in Jace, Thrun and more removal and play a more control game. I can see why you dont want goyf as when he is bad it really feels like a waste of a card slot but the deck is very slow without him. If you fear RiP just board them out. If they board in a card to shut off just Drs and Snap I am ok with that.

[Ricardio]

@h: Very well put. I agree and think there is purpose behind your statement. I like goyf and agree that alongside drs they are strong enough to warrant hate. Maybe I should do as you both said and pull in every direction. Also deed seems strong atm and I want to try it some more.

@Tom: I tend to run 1 snap or none, just seems very mana intensive. I would like to run some number of strix ideally alongside a sword/jitte. not altogether sure. I will work on it at modern tonight in preparation for the IQ sunday.

You two are definitely entertaining to read. Glad others want this deck to succeed.

[sdematt]

@h: Very well put. I agree and think there is purpose behind your statement. I like goyf and agree that alongside drs they are strong enough to warrant hate. Maybe I should do as you both said and pull in every direction. Also deed seems strong atm and I want to try it some more.

@Tom: I tend to run 1 snap or none, just seems very mana intensive. I would like to run some number of strix ideally alongside a sword/jitte. not altogether sure. I will work on it at modern tonight in preparation for the IQ sunday.

You two are definitely entertaining to read. Glad others want this deck to succeed.

What was your exact list, H?

I really could see cutting Goyf to put in Strix and play the control game and up your blue sources, but TNN is very good to blank removal and just play infinite chumps for your walkers.

I dont know if I want Deed in the main, but its an excellent sideboard tool. Deluge in the main has been excellent. Opponents have to overextend to go around TNN or your Goyfs, so you punish them with Deluge and/or Deed out of the side. Even if you friendly fire a TNN, the X-for-2 value can still be very high.

Truths is the hard nut and I love Sylvan. I dont think Visions is necessary in addition, but I wanted hard draw, not Ponder, and blue sources.