Yes, this. Sorry, should have clarified. This has happened to me many times. It probably happens more to me because I play a lot of zero drops so people tend to set a chalice on zero a lot against me. other problem with EE is that with moon out, it is harder to play an EE on anything more than 1. This is difficult if you are trying to hit counterbalance, etc..Originally Posted by SDBobPlissken
Last edited by drude1; 05-22-2016 at 01:51 PM.
Well that makes sense.
Got to ult Nahiri today at a local. Went and got the store for the win. And she was an out to other things in different games. I played one main deck. Saw it a few times, and not just when I fetched
But seriously it was good as it stood in my 75. I sort of pre boarded against miracles and eldrazi. Played against 2 maverick, grixis delver, dnt instead. Gonna pre board against X/1's and X/2's next time i think
When you say "preboard", what changes are you talking about?Well that makes sense.
Got to ult Nahiri today at a local. Went and got the store for the win. And she was an out to other things in different games. I played one main deck. Saw it a few times, and not just when I fetched
But seriously it was good as it stood in my 75. I sort of pre boarded against miracles and eldrazi. Played against 2 maverick, grixis delver, dnt instead. Gonna pre board against X/1's and X/2's next time i think
In flex slots I have Nahiri, Vandal, revoker, and just one bridge. No led or jaya. Just a stock shortcake list with a completely different sideboard plan, and these changes of course.
Didn't do well but i haven't played in seven months. The deck is solid and i can see why people opt for a little more explosiveness. More wins is better
Hi guys! Long time thread-follower first time poster.
I know this question is pretty vague since it all depends on the meta-game and what other decks people are playing, but between imperial painter and lands, which deck is, objectively, more successful? I've seen people argue that Lands is the best deck in the format but is under-represented due to the high cost of cards (specifically, Tabernacle). From what I've read they both get owned by omnitell but these are the only two decks I can see myself playing.
i've had jack kitchen's strawberry shortcake imperial painter deck already constructed for 2 years now but haven't got around to playing with it. at my local store iirc there's miracles, dnt, burn and dredge, to name a few. does painter fair well against those decks? i was considering buying into lands as well but if painter does well against them then I might just not bother.
Miracles and dnt are not easy but definitely winnable , while dredge and burn are not fun at all. Don't build a deck to suite your meta, build it to suite your own style. Painter has game against those decks, but it won't be steamrolling them unless wotc prints us some better hoser cards
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Well I played Lands for about a year. It is a very competitive deck in the right meta and generally does well against various Delver, Stoneforge and other beat-down strategies. However, it is extremely weak to combo strategies. So the worst thing you can see when you are playing Lands is "island, go". For me, that just did not fit my play style. it is generally good in larger tournaments because you tend see a lot more tempo/aggro-control strategies in those settings. You just have to learn to play fast because the deck takes time to develop and you can time out easily. It is not a deck that you can just come out of nowhere and win (although I guess if they have no answer to a quick stage-depths combo, the deck can win quickly). To be honest, for me that deck just got boring after a while. It is very linear and the general lines of play are right in your face. Painter has been the one deck in Legacy that has kept my interest for such a long time. It is a lot more malleable to what is happening in the format.
As for beating dredge, miracles, death & taxes and burn I would order those a little differently than Jandax. I definitely agree that burn is just gross and very hard to beat unless you really devote some key slots of side board to the match up. With the right side board, you either see those cards and win or do not see those cards and lose. Most people just don't bother with the sideboard cards because they are so narrow and hope they don't see burn. If you are playing online, I don't recommend this.
I personally have never had a problem against dredge with this deck. Of course if they have a hugely explosive draw then dredge is hard to beat for anyone. But side board games usually go well. You just have to mulligan into even a little bit of hate. This can include a bridge, crypt, RiP, containment priest, tutor or even a couple well-timed blasts and expendable creatures. Death and taxes is also very beatable. Again, a few key side board cards also really help. A lot of people on this thread are now playing Sulfur Elemental in the board which obviously is a good card in the MU.
For me, miracles is probably the bitch of the bunch. We probably have a better win percentage against it vs burn but you have to play very tight in this match up and pray they don't hit an early top + CB. Personally, this is the MU that I have devoted the most of my SB to because I just hate losing to the deck and it is obviously a big player in the format. There have been pages and pages devoted to this match-up if you look back in the thread.
Anyway, I think you can still get a lot of mileage out of painter and I would play with it for a few months before switching to lands. This deck is way more interactive and fun to play. There's also nothing like watching your opponent go from thinking they have the game in the bag to totally getting blown out in one turn, which this deck has the ability to do. The intricacies of this deck are so fun as well. And I would tell everyone to try LED in the deck because it is just so much fun to pull off completely crazy interactions when that card is on the table. I also really liked Jack increasing the tutor count in the deck. Sometimes they seem bad when your opponent has a grip-full of counters but it makes it a lot easier to take a "silver bullet" approach to building the deck and cards like LED can become a "win off the top" type of card. It also dramatically increases your win percentage against decks like Storm where you can go get your canonist or 3-sphere EOT or in response to discard and play it on turn two.
drude, i'd be interested in seeing your current list
thanks for the detailed replies guys! i think i'll play painter for a few months before i make the decision. it came second in a semi-local legacy tourney where foil mana drain was the first prize! (only beaten by miracles, 2-1) i think second place still won force or a couple of the cheaper duals or something. there were also something like 6 lands decks, 6+ delver decks and 5 dnt decks in that tournament so i think he must have done pretty well!
i agree that there are a lot of intricacies within the deck and i'll read more into how to properly play it (i.e. read the comments on this thread lol) once my exams are over.
cheers again!
Played in a weekly legacy tournament Monday night.
4 mountain
2 plateau
5 red fetch
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 great furnace
4 painters servant
4 imperial recruiter
3 goblin welder
1 Jaya Ballard
1 phyrexian revoker
1 magus of the moon
2 simian spirit guide
4 blood moon
4 grindstone
3 sdt
3 lotus petal
1 ensnaring bridge
4 pyroblast
2 REB
3 enlightened tutor
1 LED
SB:
3 lightning bolt
2 containment priest
2 sulfur elemental
1 hedge Mage
1 nahiri harbinger
1 ajani vengeant
1 sphere of law
1 thorn of amathyst
1 ethersworn canonist
1 rest in peace
1 ensnaring bridge
I played a split of ajani and nahiri only because I could not get my hands on a second ajani.
Round 1 vs zombardment
My opponent and I are friends. We came down together and knew exactly what each other was playing and probably should have just stayed home and played at that point lol.
G1: too unfair. I'm on the play. I have a god hand of painter, sol land, lotus petal, grindstone, led. I combo turn 1 and he loses on his first draw step.
I am able to bird because I have played him before. Something like -2 welder, -1 blood moon, - 2 REB, -1 e tutor, -1 Jaya, -1 magus, +1 bridge, +2 containment priest, +1 rip, +3 bolt, +1 hedge Mage
G2: I take way to much damage from my tombs and he is able to disrupt my combo through abrupt decay and getting bombardment online to kill my creatures and eventually get me to zero.
G3. I end up having a board of revoker on bombardment plus a containment priest on the board to stop the recurring shenanigans. He has that new zombie out that keeps creating tokens but I ha e a decent amount of dorks out as well. He makes the mistake of not keeping mana open for abrupt decay and I end up top decking a grindstone for the win.
Round 2 vs some type of esper stone/deathblade BWG
G1: I end up getting a turn one blood moon and we play draw go for a few. He finds a basic forest and ends up with a goyf on board. I end up blasting his lone forest with a painter on blue and we start racing eachother with the beats downs until I get him low enough and he starts leaving the goyf open as a blocker. I end up drawing a sdt and spin to find the grindstone to seal the game while he is stuck with a Goyf and a bunch of expensive mountains on board.
G2: I guess I need more practice with this match up. I don't recall really playing it that often if at all. He has all the answers. He got so fucked by blood moon that I went with that early moon plan again but he ended up drawing all basics which I didn't think he had that many. He ends up beating me down with either a BOB or stone forge equipped with a jitte after decaying all my good stuff.
G3: went a lot like game 2. Had a lot of hate. I feel like if I had the turn 1 moon instead of turn 2 j would have been in a lot better shape as he had death rite mana to decay it.
Any advice on this match up?
Round 3 vs miracles( entreat/legends) I can't believe I actually won in 2. All that practice and reading this forum really helped. Thanks guys.
G1: slow and Grindy game. I'm holding onto two blasts the whole time just in case he decides to cast counter balance. We play draw go for a while and keep spinning our tops. He eventually stp two welder a after way to many turns of me doing welder top shenanigans with two tops in play. It's no wonder people have called for a banning of that card. We would have barely had time for a game 3 if it was needed. I eventually find a bunch of painters and welder a. I have a blood moon out. We keep making land drops. He only has one plains. I eventually have enough mana to cast 2 painters and have enough for my two blasts and a grindstone activation. He doesn't have enough counter/removal and I win.
Something like +1 ajani, +1 nahiri, +2 bolt, +1 hedge Mage, -1 magus, -1 welder, -1 Jaya, -1 e tutor
G2: i turn one blood moon and he fetches for a basic island in response. Blood moon resolves. I play and early painter leaving a mountain open. He stp the painter and I blast his plains. He doesn't have any white mana the rest of the game. We both start spinning out tops and trading blows with dorks and his snapcasters. I eventually get enough pressure on the board and win through beat down with little time left in the round.
I feel like blood moon really fucks this version of miracles up if you can resolve it early and keep them off white. I use to try to counter the stp with the painter on blue. Now I just blast one of their basics and let it go. I find that I had all the time in the world. No reason to rush getting stuff through in this match up.
Should I have brought the sulfur elemental a in here? I knew he wasn't playing mentor, but still just to have a 3 power body with flash and split second?
Round 4 vs UR Delver variant
I say variant because most lists I play online use pyromancer and swiftspears. I had played my opponent before in the past on multiple occasions. His creature base is something like 4 delver, 3 snapcaster, 2 truename, and maybe 2 Lava mans along with a boat load of burn and counter magic.
G1: he counters and bolts most of my stuff while fetching for basics. I lose petty badly.
G2: I thought he was just fucking with me when he said I can't remember if your deck plays blood moons. Well he wasn't as he fetched for non basics and I ended up landing an early moon. He's left with a bunch of really expensive mountains. He is able to burn three painters and smash a grindstone but I was able to top for another stone and recruit the final painter all while laying some unprecedented beats. I ended up combining him after getting him down to 7 life.
G3: nightmare. I ended up getting my grindstone smashed and then surgicaled. It was a slow and painful death though as he had lots of removal and counter magic but nothing to really seal the game. I ended up losing to a lava man.
2-2. I feel like with the decks I have the most experience playing against I did fairly well and at least I didn't get swept in any of the rounds. Any thoughts anybody?
Amjw I’m going to expand on everyone else’s responses in the hope to better give you an idea of which deck you may want to play. You can choose to ignore my comparison if you want since I literally don’t play any other deck besides this one other than screwing around casually with TES or dredge so my view on lands could be skewed and/or plain wrong. But I do think that the painter part is spot on (others care to weigh in and comment?)
So going off of your question of which deck between lands and painter is objectively more successful, I would say that Lands is. Why? I don’t buy the tabernacle cost part because we have a fringe expensive part too in recruiter. Rather it stems from my belief that Lands on the whole has a more linear and powerful strategy than Painter does. For that reason it is better able to execute that strategy each game. It is harder to interact with since normal means such as counterspells, creature removal, or discard don’t slow down the deck much. With that in mind, I would also say that the Lands skill floor is much higher than the Painter floor, which makes it the more ‘successful’ deck. It is much easier for someone to pick up the deck and do well because of how different the deck is from ‘normal’ magic and how powerful and resilient the stage-depths combo and recurring wastelands components are, whereas Painter gets hated on by every normal axis of magic (I am using the assumption of an ‘average’ magic game and excluding the T1 Blood Moon or nut early combo).
For the other side, I would say that Painter’s skill ceiling is slightly higher than that of Lands (not sure you can quantify how much), but that it is much harder to get there because of how many different angles Painter attacks from, gets attacked from, and how much lower the general power level of the cards in the deck are in Legacy. (as well as the other obvious reasons relative to other decks such as its non-blue deck, worse card filter, no brainstorm blah blah). So for those reasons I would say that Painter is less ‘successful’ on the whole, but take that with a grain of salt since I think its potential ceiling is higher.
Strawberry Shortcake
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...erry-Shortcake
What a brainstorm do? Draw card and activate on draw effects fix hand, removing woods
#FreeNedleeds
Thanks for the in depth reply! I've had your list made for ages now so i think I'll give it a shot for a while. I completely agree that the skill ceiling is higher (even if slightly) than lands but I think both decks look like a blast to play so I may as well just try the one I already have made. I'll be going to my first legacy weekly next Monday so I'll post then with my games. Cheers
Something to consider, from a longtime Painter player, and also occasional Lands player, is that mechanically Lands might not be very fun for you. What I mean is not that it's a boring or linear or bad deck, though that's all in the eye of the beholder, but that actually physically playing with the cards isn't fun. When I owned Lands, I hated feeling cramped, with a sprawling graveyard, tons of permanents needing to be organized, loaming, dredging, buying back punishing fire, chasm locking, wasteland locking, etc. - for me it was kinda wearisome just to keep track of all this crazy micro maintenance bullshit going on, when in reality the game state was fairly simple, just a pain to execute. I would wager that if Dredge and/or Elves aren't your style, think about whether it has anything to do with the physical playing of the cards, because Lands is by far the most tedious of these when it comes to taking up giant amounts of space and time. Though I do think time concerns are overstated for this deck, it's not really that slow to win - if you keep up with the frenetic pace and necessity of organizing all your information.
Just my 2 cents, I know it's a silly reason to write off a deck, but I realized I just wasn't enjoying myself with this giant clusterfuck going on constantly when I played at more crowded events. At your LGS or kitchen table or MODO or whatever, I think it's a lot of fun, and still play it from time to time in those environments.
Hey y'all,
I'm interested in picking up Painter, but a lot of the mulligan decisions seem really tough for me to evaluate. Does anyone know of any good videos of people who know the deck really well playing it? I can't seem to find anything, and that's usually how I start playing a deck.
Thanks,
WW
Off hand, I do not know of anyone you can just watch past broadcast of as Jack Kitchen's streams aren't saved on his Twitch channel however his twitch handle is kapncook. You can also look on Youtube of past broadcast from scg live. The Mulligan decisions are quite drastic depending on your opponent's I tend to keep any hand that has an early combo (t2-t3) or a turn 1 or 2 Blood Moon. Learning a lot of the different things you can do with Goblin Wleder is the best thing you can learn with the deck.
As a mono R player (With 4 Welders in the deck) - keeping a hand with SDT, Welder, Grindstone and nothing but lands... Keep it almost no matter what kind of OP you're up against... For me the most important thing is to have the Welder online by turn 2, so the OP doesn't really know what to expect. Sure, if he snap bolts/swords the Welder, fine. Another spotremoval less for the combo or Magus.
When I started playing the deck, I actually hated Welder, couldn't see what it did in the deck... But the holy trinity of Welder, Grindstone and a Servant.... People don't know they're dead xD
Anyways... Going to GP Prague, I would love to meet some other painter players down there for a general talk and catch up, if the interest is there? :)
I'll be going to Prague with Painter as well. Not much experience but hey, still rolling with it :)
It would be awesome to meet up in Prague and compare decklists and so on. Friday good?
I'm not sure how many are keeping up on EMA but the saddest news came in last night when Grindstone was crossed off as a possibility. We're were so very close to getting a foil version :'(
Moment of silence will you please.....
But at least we get foil pyroblasts 😁
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