[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Arianrhod]

Not suggesting the sky is falling or anything of the sort. Just trying to work out what we need to do to adapt effectively to the times we live in atm.

[Navsi]

@Arianrhod - with regards to midgame plays in the Colorless lists, maybe you want to be putting the Matter Reshapers back in?

[Brael]

I'm starting to wonder if I need to reduce the 4 GSZ down to 3 as I'm seeing less possible targets, and even less that I actually want to get into play on an average turn.

Let me suggest something even more radical than cutting a color. Run GSZ as a 1 of. GSZ is a very interesting card in my opinion because I think it's the sort of thing you should either run as a 4 of if there's something you want to spam over and over. But if you have a smaller toolbox I actually think a 1 of is the best number. This has to do with the quirkiness of hypergeometic math which you have to use for calculating deck probabilities. A 1 of has X chance of being hit, but a 2 of isn't a 2X chance of you hitting the card, it's actually only around 1.8X chance. A 4 of is only about twice as likely to be hit as a 1 of (depending on how early in the game you need it) and with our Tops this is even more pronounced. Therefore, the point of diminishing returns is somewhere between 1 and 2 copies of a card in your deck. A single GSZ therefore functions as a second copy of everything in your toolbox while still keeping the deck light weight. If you're only tutoring every couple turns, you don't need more than that.

Edit: I too have been thinking about Lingering Souls but for a different reason. I'm keeping the Contamination idea in the back of my mind and Souls is something that can be cast off of it and feed it.

[Brael]

I folks, here is my current version of Nic Fit.
I think it's quite a totally new version of it since it's based on enchantements.

You've put much more work into this idea than me but I was thinking of something similar yesterday. Contamination and Bitterblossom are enchantments so I was starting to wonder if there's something to it. I was actually looking through a few of the constellation options. Eidolon of Blossoms could be cool as could Underworld Coinsmith and Brain Maggot but I dropped the idea after thinking it's just a bad version of Enchantress. Your idea with Starfield is intriguing though. I don't agree with 4 color but there could be a solid engine in here.

[Ricardio]

Not suggesting the sky is falling or anything of the sort. Just trying to work out what we need to do to adapt effectively to the times we live in atm.

I am a bit frustrated that is the main idea you derived from my comment. I wasn't saying it in a rhetorical sense. Not insinuating you are fearful for the future of this archetype but more along the lines that we need to work towards change and find our new place in the meta.

[square_two]

Let me suggest something even more radical than cutting a color. Run GSZ as a 1 of. GSZ is a very interesting card in my opinion because I think it's the sort of thing you should either run as a 4 of if there's something you want to spam over and over. But if you have a smaller toolbox I actually think a 1 of is the best number. This has to do with the quirkiness of hypergeometic math which you have to use for calculating deck probabilities. A 1 of has X chance of being hit, but a 2 of isn't a 2X chance of you hitting the card, it's actually only around 1.8X chance. A 4 of is only about twice as likely to be hit as a 1 of (depending on how early in the game you need it) and with our Tops this is even more pronounced. Therefore, the point of diminishing returns is somewhere between 1 and 2 copies of a card in your deck. A single GSZ therefore functions as a second copy of everything in your toolbox while still keeping the deck light weight. If you're only tutoring every couple turns, you don't need more than that.

Edit: I too have been thinking about Lingering Souls but for a different reason. I'm keeping the Contamination idea in the back of my mind and Souls is something that can be cast off of it and feed it.

Thanks for the suggestion, I might tinker around some with having 3 more slots. The Zenith-able creatures in my list are 1 Arbor, 4 Vet, 1 DRS, 1 Ooze, 1 Tracker, 1 Witness, 1 Sigarda. Sigarda being the big payoff that wrecks sh*t while equipped. Primarily GSZ for an early Vet or a late Sigarda. Actually, cutting 3 GSZ in order to -add- more impactful tutors could be the thing, but I feel they would have to be nearly game-winning options. Gaddock Teeg qualifies.

I'll test -3 GSZ, +1 Teeg, +1 DRS, +1 Glissa. Not sure if Glissa is good because she ensures a trump for ground games, or too win-more since our equipment hopefully already does that. Getting back countered/destroyed equipment sounds nice though. 2nd DRS lessens the need for early GSZ for a Vet.

Edit: Scryb Ranger??

[Arianrhod]

I am a bit frustrated that is the main idea you derived from my comment. I wasn't saying it in a rhetorical sense. Not insinuating you are fearful for the future of this archetype but more along the lines that we need to work towards change and find our new place in the meta.

Apologies. That assumption is more based on my mindset the last few days. Between frustrations in real life, with vintage, with my local scene, and with legacy, I haven't been in a good place mentally and have had to work on improving that.

Sorry for reflecting that on to you.

[Ricardio]

Apologies. That assumption is more based on my mindset the last few days. Between frustrations in real life, with vintage, with my local scene, and with legacy, I haven't been in a good place mentally and have had to work on improving that.

Sorry for reflecting that on to you.

I don't take it personally, nor do I assume others don't experience hardship in some form. I want us to positively move forward and evolve the deck properly.
I am sorry to hear you are going through hardships and that we didn't meet up at gp charlotte but I understand you will be fine on the other side so push on through.

[Brael]

Expanding on what I mentioned before about cutting a color, here's an attempt at a G/B build, something of a mix between SE Fit and the old Rock builds. Looking at this really makes me question why I ever bother running white.

Lands 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures 20
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 The Gitrog Monster

Spells 15
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Diabolic Edict

Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top

After building this, I realized there's some pretty neat Dryad Arbor implications with the towers and Gitrog. Might be something good there worth empathizing more. Probably needs some Deeds though, 2-3 of them, not quite sure on the cuts for that yet.

[sdematt]

Ill post a Junk blade deck for y'alls consideration, since it does a decent job of crushing Miracles more regularly than Rhinotime. Maybe something to think about.

[Echelon]

I'm getting back into legacy after 10 months of not playing actively, so I want to find out which version of Abzan Rhino Fit is the most consistent of them all, so I can start testing online and be prepared for tournaments?

TnQ in advance!

Dig around for the SE Fit build. It's something none of us wants to play but should be the most consistent build across the board.

Edit:

A friend of mine just pointed out that we did make it in to EMA after all -- if only in flavor text.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CjZzziMUoAAJ41v.jpg

That's beyond epic.

The best card Eldrazi can play post-board vs Miracles is All is Dust. If it resolves (it rarely gets countered because they've run out of counters at that point), it's basically an "I win" button. Probably needs some adaptions because it isn't a one-sided board sweeper in Nic Fit like it is in Eldrazi. If you want to go that route, you should definitely try it out.

Nice one, we should look into that.

This is exactly the issue that I'm trying to get at right now. We're the best Zenith deck, but Zenith is a very questionable card right now.

Nic Fit used to be all about honey badger. We used to be able to take almost any hit, for an unknown (but large) number of turns. We'd bear the brunt of whatver the opponent was dishing out, and then we'd strike back with supreme and overwhelming power when the time was right. I believe that we can't do this anymore, not on an archetypal-wide note, anyway. BUG Pod might still be able to do execute this plan, but as I've said before, I neither own the cards nor am versed in the skills required to play that deck, so I need to find another way.

So if we can't endure through the opponent's deck anymore, what else can we do? How else can we leverage our advantages?

Elves! is the best Zenith deck - their Zenith can turn into an "I win"-button (as in cast GSZ -> Craterhoof Behemoth, smash face for 40+). We should be a solid second best though.

The main issue seems to be we're running out of advantages. We ramp out in front of the field and ignore Wasteland/Daze, but that's about it. Perhaps this is a good time to look into Summoner's Egg Pod Fit. If dropping Emrakul through a Pod chain in just a turn or 2 with a natural lategame to hardcast Elesh Norn isn't big enough anymore to overwhelm your opponent, I don't know what is.

If you've looked at my lists in the past few pages you'll see that I've been experimenting with dropping GSZ, these Stax variants aren't using it at all. On the other hand I use it extensively in SE Fit. It just depends on what you're looking for, but in general I do favor overloading the opponents removal.

Let me suggest something even more radical than cutting a color. Run GSZ as a 1 of. GSZ is a very interesting card in my opinion because I think it's the sort of thing you should either run as a 4 of if there's something you want to spam over and over. But if you have a smaller toolbox I actually think a 1 of is the best number. This has to do with the quirkiness of hypergeometic math which you have to use for calculating deck probabilities. A 1 of has X chance of being hit, but a 2 of isn't a 2X chance of you hitting the card, it's actually only around 1.8X chance. A 4 of is only about twice as likely to be hit as a 1 of (depending on how early in the game you need it) and with our Tops this is even more pronounced. Therefore, the point of diminishing returns is somewhere between 1 and 2 copies of a card in your deck. A single GSZ therefore functions as a second copy of everything in your toolbox while still keeping the deck light weight. If you're only tutoring every couple turns, you don't need more than that.

BLASPHEMY!

Expanding on what I mentioned before about cutting a color, here's an attempt at a G/B build, something of a mix between SE Fit and the old Rock builds. Looking at this really makes me question why I ever bother running white.

Lands 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures 20
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 The Gitrog Monster

Spells 15
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Diabolic Edict

Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top

After building this, I realized there's some pretty neat Dryad Arbor implications with the towers and Gitrog. Might be something good there worth empathizing more. Probably needs some Deeds though, 2-3 of them, not quite sure on the cuts for that yet.

You run white b/c PtE solved a lot of problems AD doesn't. Removing them and running non-targeted removal, non-exiling removal or 3 mana removal instead, you just create new problems for yourself. You also lose Ethersworn Canonist from your SB, a rather crucial card for an atrocious MU. Oh, and Sigarda.

[Brael]

You run white b/c PtE solved a lot of problems AD doesn't. Removing them and running non-targeted removal, non-exiling removal or 3 mana removal instead, you just create new problems for yourself. You also lose Ethersworn Canonist from your SB, a rather crucial card for an atrocious MU. Oh, and Sigarda.

What problems does Path solve that Diabolic Edict doesn't? The whole point is to create new problems though, preferably problems that are easier to manage

[rubblekill]

On the "need moar meatballs" subject: I have been playing with (maindeck) - meren + garruk relentless + tusk lately and definitely the difference is sensible against terminus. In the same list I am (prepare for the heresy, don't insult me) moving ooze to the sb: I mean he dies to everything (plow+ad) and I am one of those who side it in g2-3 against miracles.
Some players (Julian Knaab comes to my mind) main deck ooze in their elves deck, but they can reap its benefits more and faster than we can do: they have tons more G mana, they are full of 1 cmc dudes that will eventually fill the gy..I know it's an heresy but to be honest I would rather have a garruk instead in the md, and know I can rely on ooze against gy decks or creatures/ delver decks..so far I am liking this new configuration, lots of meat aka "must counter this " ( while ooze and meren are just mediocre to bad cards vs karakas stp terminus).

I have been in a very brewy mood lately, because I share the common sentiment that we have to innovate to be able to compete with the top dog of the format.

@Arian, Ricardio: there is a ton of room to innovate/improve rhino time, buckle up and let's work together. No depression allowed as long as our goal is to save cheerleaders etc etc

[Echelon]

What problems does Path solve that Diabolic Edict doesn't? The whole point is to create new problems though, preferably problems that are easier to manage

Anything that has >1 creatures on the board before you get to cast it. Otherwise you first need to AD the small thing to Edict the big thing. Grixis Delver comes to mind, as does Eldrazi. Slaughter Pact can't get rid of anything black or indestructible and costs 3 mana the turn after you cast it. Which leaves Maelstrom Pulse as a worse 3 mana, sorcery speed catch-all that doesn't answer Merit Lage. You'd be better off with Anguished Unmaking, in that regard.

[sdematt]

Got dirted at the local Legacy weekly. Lost to DnT (couldn't draw black mana), lost to RG Lands (Sorin's ultimate doesn't make flying tokens...aiya), and and won against Infect (barely).

I just felt clunky and behind a bunch of the time. Drawing fatties with no accel, etc. I'll keep grinding, it was only three rounds, so not a ton of practice. Plus, rusty AF.

-Matt

[uncletiggy]

Ive been playing a pw list lately with md 2 pulse, sorin, and vraska as clean answers to jace plus a relentless and im still having trouble pressuring jace after the first fate seal. Im considering ground breaker as a zenithable aproach to burning down a jace, has anyone tried this previously? It may not be a viable solution for what im currently running since im also leaning on e bridge md but it may be an option for my rhino list's single flex slot that is currently back and forth between tusk and tracker.

[Echelon]

I believe rubble tried Giant Solifuge at one point.

[Navsi]

Ive been playing a pw list lately with md 2 pulse, sorin, and vraska as clean answers to jace plus a relentless and im still having trouble pressuring jace after the first fate seal. Im considering ground breaker as a zenithable aproach to burning down a jace, has anyone tried this previously? It may not be a viable solution for what im currently running since im also leaning on e bridge md but it may be an option for my rhino list's single flex slot that is currently back and forth between tusk and tracker.

IMO If you want a zenithable Jace slayer, Giant Solifuge is a better bet than Ground Breaker.

[rubblekill]

I believe rubble tried Giant Solifuge at one point.

Yes, and I have to agree with Navsi.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Looking to start anew with the release of eternal masters, particularly now that I realize how much of a bust Modern Abzan Company is for me.

Any new versions that have popped out recently (past year or so for me)?