Comparing this to Surgical Extraction on turn zero, is this the only difference?Originally Posted by Echelon
(1) Faerie Macabre hits two cards and is uncounterable.
(2) Surgical Extraction hits every copy of one card but is counterable.
Are there any other decks that Leyline of the Void is good against? Of the ten players at this shop last night, the decks I saw were:
(1) Mono-green Titan Post (me)
(2) Sneak and Show
(3) Lands
(4) Abzan Nic Fit
(5) Mono-black Reanimator (this player says he doesn't always play at this shop)
(6) A RUG deck with Delvers (not sure exactly what it was)
(7) Reanimator (didn't see it in action, so I have no further details)
(8) Storm (didndidn't see it in action, so I have no further details)
(9) ?
(10) ?
I've been told there are no Miracles players at this shop. I would love any advice people want to offer in putting together a sideboard plan for what may be my new local Legacy metagame.
My recent list is nearly identical to this, but with 3x Engineered Explosives main. Have been having serious success with it.
... Insert X bad matchup here.
The glaring weakness of Mono Green is that it is the most matchup dependent of the builds. Yes. it destroys the decks it beats, but it is an enormous uphill battle versus anything it is weak against, and reanimator is one of those. Especially the fast builds.
Even the U/G build has issues with Reanimator, and they run flusterstorms.
My plan against reanimator however, is not mostly blue-related. The best way to beat reanimator is to have a multiple -tier'd plan. (so have something from each of these bullets)
1) Have a turn 0 play to buy you 1-2 turns. Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre are best at this. Mindbreak Trap is pretty weak, as is Leyline of Sanctity, but they are included in here. Force of Will is ok as a cover-all, but will generally warp your build.
2) Have a turn 1-2 play that will buy you 3-4 turns. Crop Rotation -> Bog/Karakas/Chasm, Warping Wail ->Reanimate/Exhume, Relic of Progenitus + 1 Mana, Flusterstorm -> On anything really (Don't get duped by letting entomb resolve hoping to hit the reanimate spell, and then stare down animate dead [enchantment] with fluster in hand.)
3) Have a relevant mid-range finisher to grind out a win with. Thought Knot seer is my favorite in this category, but a Trinket Mage(getting relic)/Titan(getting bog/karakas) work. I personally side out my Titans vs Reanimator, as once I learned how to beat reanimator, their best wincon is win on turn 1-2, or reanimate my discarded/countered titan.
Sort of. I mean, most of the time it absolutely wrecks us, so you should respect it. That said, Warping Wail counters either spell and also can kill basically every creature they run that isn't named Mirran Crusader or Brimaz, if that's even a thing anymore.
I mean, situationally better. Relic doesn't target, meaning it doesn't care about Leylines. Relic also does a much better job of fighting Deathrite Shaman, and that's a creature you see in Legacy. Against Reanimator however, yes, it is more of a risk, and Crypt or Faerie Macabre would both be better. It's likely more of a meta call, although I think in general, assume the meta is more or less typical, Relic is slightly better.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Mono black reanimator is fringe at best. You'll likely see it less often than you will see tin fins at a large tournament.
you mean to say that you dropped ratchet bomb for EE?
in this case would it not be prudent to go:
-1x EE + 1x Trinket
-1x map + 1x pithing needle
?
i still don't like running the deck without a single pithing needle. Seems like running around naked in Siberia?
You could. I initially went x2 Trinket mage, 3 map, 2 EE. And found myself struggling for the EE's while having trinket mages in hand and needing to either color fix, or needing the EE faster/more efficiently.you mean to say that you dropped ratchet bomb for EE?
in this case would it not be prudent to go:
-1x EE + 1x Trinket
-1x map + 1x pithing needle
?
i still don't like running the deck without a single pithing needle. Seems like running around naked in Siberia?
I also am not completely anti-Ratchet bomb. I think that pairing Ratchet Bomb with Moment's peace effectively minimizes the weakness of Ratchet Bomb over EE. I think Ratchet bomb > EE would be if anticipating a Blood Moon Meta, otherwise EE will trump.
You're just getting unlucky. Personally I haven't seen a D&T list without at least one Cataclysm and I always assume it's a possibility. It's one of the main reasons I sideboard Sacred Ground.
I had similar concerns about Dryad Arbor and cut it for a Khalni Garden, from which I have never looked back. It is very relevant for Crop Rotation to find a creature to sacrifice to Liliana or chump a large creature, and although the Garden is not fetchable it does work better with Vesuva. Also, compare a T1 Arbor getting swords-ed to a T1 plant token getting swords-ed; the former case has you effectively eating a Stone Rain while the latter leaves you up a card and with a land still in play. You really don't want your lands to be vulnerable and the Garden is much less so than the Arbor while still fulfilling the same key functions.
a.k.a. Eddy Viscosity
Worth noting that Garden gets around grafdiggers cage as a way to reduce the damage as a liliana -2 on titan.
Hey Friends,
I tend to pop in and out of this thread, especially when i'm brewing / changing 12 Post. I love Ramp and Prime Time + Hardcasting Emrakul is how I enjoy my Legacy matches.
I noticed there is a proactive strategy of playing Thought-Knot Seer and I will try it on MTGO soon, I wish I had the funds to be able to go to GP Columbus, if any of you are interested my list I'll start with it is here..
Other Lists:
This was my list in Seattle (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...sts-2015-11-08)
After Seattle (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/384857)
Now~!
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Primeval Titan
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Coercive Portal
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Warping Wail
2 Expedition Map
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Vesuva
1 Karakas
3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Windswept Heath
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Savannah
3 Cavern of Souls
Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dawnstrider
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Krosan Grip
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
-I agree 3 Warping Wail is the correct # .. it is so solid vs the field
-I found Veteran Explorer to be the best card to play when you Mulligan because it not only buys you time against most decks or it lets you keep Thought-Knot in play longer since they are likely to swords it. Against ground aggro decks he is 1 or 2 mana Moat.
-I love the sideboard options for bad matchups and i'm comfortable playing vs most decks game 2 and 3
-Noticed Dark Depths + Dryad Arbor were pretty unimpressive in the current meta, and I tend to draw them at the worse times.
-Major reason why I don't play Colorless Eldrazi is because it doesn't play Prime Time or Crop Rotation.. Sensei's Divining Top is so sweet too. Less sideboard options
-Major reason why I don't play UG anymore is because you play Brainstorm with too few fetch lands / shuffle effects and the sideboard is less effective against Storm (from experience my hand would get ripped apart by Duress / Cabal Therapy + Git Probe. I prefer to attack them by making them answer multiple hate cards.
-Major reason I don't play other variants like Bant or GB is because the removal seems pretty unnecessary like Terminus or Abrupt Decay, I understand that 12 Post plays like a control deck but the mana is tough already w/ all of the colorless.
-Maindeck Tabernacle is great vs Empty and other creature decks been so happy with it + combos with Veteran for free ramp
-Thespian's Stage copying Chasm for some extra turns has been so beneficial as well that play is very solid.
-Candelabra is very narrow at what it does.. it is absurd with Cloudpost, and with repeal to replay it for ramp - I just don't see it as a great fit for this build. I guess you can play 1
-Hugely Pithing needle is great vs Sneak Attack and more importantly Wasteland - I've played so many matches against Sultai Shardless and Needle is always so unimpressive, when it matters they usually have Abrupt decay or their Miser Pulse to get rid of it. Their deck has so many ways to dig with Visions and Brainstorm + Fetch, the matchup is pretty difficult at times. The best feeling is when you cast Ugin against them and wrath their board :)
Lastly, I understand 12 Post has alot of builds and appreciate everyone brewing up ideas - I hope to contribute more in the future !
Have you tinkered with Tombs? the ratchet build seems ripe for tombs, since you run: 6x 2cmc colorless + 3x knot? not to mention it helps to cast ugin and titan now and then.
Ehhh, I'm heading to the GP and still on the fence about what deck I'm playing. UG hasn't been treating me very well. I would entertain trying an updated GW list at the GP. I have all the cards, less moat(s) lol. :-) I'll see if I can get in touch with you on MTGO.
Had some small stumbles in the form of multiple mulligans and bad topdecks against Dark Maverick, but otherwise the deck hummed merrily along this week. Highlights include some convincing wins over Infect - which is otherwise a tough matchup - as well as a Karn victory where the only lands I drew were 2 Ancient Tomb and all 4 Vesuvas. I think the concept is solid enough and I will likely keep playing it through the GP.
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Trinisphere
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Endbringer
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Oblivion Sower
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Silent Arbiter
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 All Is Dust
SIDEBOARD
2 Cursed Totem
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Warping Wail
The only real changes in the sideboard are Ensnaring Bridge in place of Grafdigger's Cage and Warping Wail in place of Chalice of the Void. Chalice was often a card I wanted to bring in only after bringing in all sorts of other stuff, which should have tipped me off that it was probably a little redundant. Cage was the same thing, really: there is maindeck grave hate, there are 6 maindeck Needle effects, and Cursed Totem stops creature-based shenanigans. Bridge helps me buy time against Marit Lage, Sneak and Skill or even Eldrazi (though that matchup is favorable), while Wail is just insanely flexible. The only maindeck change I made was Endbringer for Coercive Portal. Endbringer's array of abilities still interest me although I still need to test it further.
Other than that, the only other things I'm really looking at is whether to swap one Vesuva for the 4th Ancient Tomb and whether I should switch Sphere of Resistance to the main and Trinisphere to the board. Both play way better than Thorn of Amethyst in this list, but it's possible one is better than the other in the first game.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
I haven't. I always steered away from tomb's cost and that I often have games go long, but tomb has been being used so aggressively in the hands of other decks (biggest being eldrazi aggro) that perhaps I should give it another thought.
I'll be playing UGw myself. It's been working out rather well for me. Still not sure about a couple sideboard cards but I'll get those worked out soon.
How has Oblivion Sower without any Urborgs been for you? I've been tinkering with a similar concept including playing Relic+Sower main, but I've always played at least 2 Urborgs in order to get any use out of opposing fetchlands. It is most likely to get those from Sowers ability as there is no room for playing Wastelands. I mean sure Karn can exile opposing lands, but Karn exiling land followed up by Sower seems like a stretch.
I've been looking into trying out 12 post in legacy for some time now, but I have some questions regarding the deck before I buy into it. Forgive my extreme skepticism, but I want to make sure this deck is the right choice!
I'm a long time Modern Tron player, and I feel like I have impactful plays on turns 3-4 of the game that the Modern meta really has to respect (Karn, Ugin, Ulamog, Oblivion Stones). Just by looking at the 12 post decklists, I'm not sure this is true for the 'equivalent' deck in legacy. Sure with good draws we can show and tell a fattie or cast a big threat early in the first 3-4 turns, but is it as impactful in legacy as a turn 3-4 Karn/Ugin in Modern?
Also, I see people say they do quite well with the deck, but checking mtgtop8 and mtggoldfish I don't see 12post putting up consistent results (actually, it doesn't come up on goldfish at all). Besides the obvious miracles matchup, how does the deck fare against top tier decks in the format? Like grixis delver, storm, infect, etc? I feel like matchups are better against the blade decks but those don't seem as popular. I just don't want to beat on nic fit and miracle decks all day long! Compare this to tron in modern, 95% decks will fear a turn 3 Karn.
It's been fine. To me, Urborg doesn't do enough in this deck to warrant slots. As far as Sower is concerned, it's still a body that won't get outclassed in combat, it can still mess up Brainstorms or knock out otherwise useful sideboard cards, it can still let you return the favor to someone who Wastelands you, and it's still a hedge against Blood Moon effects. Plus, take their fetches anyway. It's funny. :)
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
This is Legacy and not modern, the format is much much different and has police cards such as FOW (not to say Karn is bad in legacy, he still is a house). Not many people play this deck in paper so results may not appear. I have been doing great with deck, using the mono G build and UG build depending on my mood. I use the comments/decklists provided by Zotmaster and Rock Lee. They have a plethora of great ideas and can help with metagaming and testing new cards. They have always aided me and sometimes questioned my card choices (which they were always right). Right now I am playing the UG build that Zotmaster and Rock Lee have recently been toying with. I think this is a better build for the meta atm.
In this deck, IMO, the fear is Candelabra, that card is bonkers and steals games. I have been dead on board with a few posts out and used SDT to obtain a candelabra and just crap out some big nasty eldrazi to win the game (This is one of the reasons I play the deck, for games like this). I also really like using the pair of tabernacle and Nulamog, destroy their lands and then destroy their creatures on upkeep. Tabernacle seems to be fading out of popularity, but I still enjoy playing with it. There is a ton of lines within this deck, it takes some time to get the hang of them. I am still learning how to play the deck, but am having a blast doing so.
Also I would like to bring up that nic fit is not an auto win when they are playing the scapeshift build. That deck has resilience and with tireless tracker damage piles on fast. TTX a nic fit contributor has been rumbling with me when he plays his scapefit deck. Again S&T into big eldrazi can clean up the game but their are many tricks and nuances within scapefit that I miss and can cause me a loss.
I can definitely relate. I started as a modern TRON player that slowly moved into Legacy. I started legacy with NicFit, wasn't happy moved into MUD and ultimately 12post was the long goal. There is a definitive difference between the two plays styles. Modern Tron is an A+B+C, if you assemble Tron you're probably winning. One of the best things about that deck is how consistent it can be. Legacy 12Post is more like a planting a seed, you need to protect it (cloudpost) and make it grow in a few turns. Most of the time 12post just sits around: spinning tops or brainstorms, appearing to do nothing....leading up to one or two critical turns.
Both decks struggle with the same matchups overall: combo and hyperfast decks. There's a modern person at my LGS that shows up on occasion to Tron people in legacy. It makes some people very salty.
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