Check it out guys, Naya Loam:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Punishing Fire
1 Council's Judgment
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Arlinn Kord
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forgotten Cave
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
Sideboard
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Containment Priest
1 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Holy Light
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
It's cool because it's Naya
Probably worse than 4c though :(
I dunno, Xenagos is pretty boss. I tried playing him in RUG Landstill when Cruise was legal and most decks of that era couldn't beat him.
Yes, I tried him in 4c cascade and he was really good vs Miracles, and I just seem to face miracles half the time.
Then clearly the answer is more Planeswalkers.
I bring in the swords against decks where chalice is somewhat bad. Played a tournament recently and this is what I boarded against goblins (sorry about the glare)Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Here is against Sneak and Show (lackluster, should have been thalia instead of canonist):
This is against miracles:
http://i.imgur.com/eyN7fiO.jpg?1
I have more pictures and thoughts, will share if you guys are interested. The list I played is here:
Going to Prague if anyone is interested in grinding/sideboard-testing on thursday/friday.
Oh and changes for now is:
-1 Crop Rotation
-1 Bojuka Bog
-2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+3 Leyline of the Void
Need to either cut something from the board (Pyroclasm is hanging loose) or add a Deathrite Shaman to the main to compensate.
Are you changing the canonists for the thalias due to S&Sand Miracles?
Overall I think I prefer canonists due to the elves mu.
3 pfire 4 decay and 3 swords is probably too much no?
i would change 1 decay for the shaman(it smooths out the mana)
I will be there friday, will probably try and steal some byes also.
Some of you were a bit concerned about the SneakShow matchup and they are right about this. So I decided to slightly modify the SB with SneakShow in my mind. I tried to make a small SB guide as well. It is probably not perfect, but the configurations after sideboarding are looking reasonable to me.
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Library
3 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Barren Moor
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
Sideboard
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Slaughter Games
Manaless Dredge
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Crop Rotation
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+1 Slaughter Games
-3 Liliana of the Veil
-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Abrupt Decay
-1 Maze of Ith
ElvesOTD
+1 Golgari Charm
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+1 Crop Rotation
-3 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Maze of Ith
-3 Life from the Loam
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Dark Confidant
ElvesOTP
+1 Golgari Charm
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+1 Crop Rotation
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Deathrite Shaman
-3 Life from the Loam
-1 Sylvan Library
-2 Dark Confidant
-1 Abrupt Decay
Lands
+1 Reclamation Sage
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Crop Rotation
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Slaughter Games
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-3 Punishing Fire
-2 Chalice of the Void
SneakShow
+1 Slaughter Games
+1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Crop Rotation
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Reclamation Sage
-3 Punishing Fire
-1 Barren Moor
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-3 Life from the Loam
Storm
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Crop Rotation
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Slaughter Games
-3 Abrupt Decay
-3 Punishing Fire
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Life from the Loam
Shardless
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Garruk Relentless
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-2 Mox Diamond
Death and Taxes
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+2 Thoughtseize
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Reclamation Sage
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Life from the Loam
Miracles
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+1 Slaughter Games
-1 Maze of Ith
-2 Mox Diamond
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-2 Life from the Loam
Eldrazi
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Crop Rotation
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Punishing Fire
-1 Sylvan Library
Grixis Delver (with Young Pyromancer)
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+1 Bojuka Bog
-3 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Barren Moor
RUG Delver (old Canadian creatures)
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+1 Bojuka Bog
-2 Punishing Fire
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Dark Confidant
-1 Barren Moor
BUG Delver
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Dark Confidant
-1 Barren Moor
Thanks for all of this work, really appreciated.
Isn't chalice good vs Lands? i think that's better than Lili
Liliana in play for 3 turns without them using punishing fire = they loose half their lands.
The amount of decks where Thalia goes in are more simply put. I can use Thalia vs decks with Daze to great success. I might agree that a split might be correct, but Canonist does too little against combo decks that does not play multiple spells each turn and still can win.
My main issue with the shaman except the fact that we play chalice is that he oftentimes has to eat our own lands. I really dislike eating my own stuff that I later on want to use to win the game.
I agree, I like Liliana against Lands. Liliana gives you an out to a very fast Marit Lage, and having her and Wasteland in your deck makes pushing out their combo very awkward. They cannot create Lage on their turn risk-free in case you drop Liliana, and they cannot rely on creating Lage on your turn if you have Wasteland to drop in your mainphase.
That, and her largely neutral +1 and ensuing ultimate can decimate their board.
I do like Chalice against them to turn off Crop Rotation/gamble or just eliminate their deck with it on 2...you could probably cut one of each.
Cutting 2 chalice might be more correct so you don't turn off your incoming 4 1cc cards (StP x3 and Crop Rotation).
With the amount of games I've watched and played, I've seen Deathrite be too crucial of a lynch pin to be cut. I think 3 Fire/3 Decay is a good removal suite.My main issue with the shaman except the fact that we play chalice is that he oftentimes has to eat our own lands. I really dislike eating my own stuff that I later on want to use to win the game.
Please tell me you guys seriously don't leave in Gaddock Teeg against delver decks? I would never cut chalices against RUG or Grixis Delver. I could see the rationale for cutting them against BUG decks (higher curve, they have abrupt decay anyways). Niklas said it a few pages back- You can leave swords and chalice in. If you have a chalice on 1 out, you have 3 one drops in your deck whereas your opponent has 25+.
Also, I really DONT like Ethersworn Canonist in the deck. I like Thalia and Containment priest waaaaay more. Canonist is at his/her best against storm, but we already have chalice and Teeg, and thalia would be great against storm too while also dodging hurkyl's recall. Ethersworn canonist is pretty useless against Sneak and Show which is our worst match up whereas thalia and containment priest come in here and really shine. You can also bring thalia in against delver decks to really tax them. Also, Thalia/Priest can even be brought in against dredge decks to stop dread return / NArcos / Cabal Therapy. Against reanimator, thalia and containment priest are both excellent. Canonist can more easily be played around (EOT Entomb, main phase reanimate, for example). And I've actually found we can be vulnerable to a fast start from elves, containment priest ensure they will not NO for the win.
I'm also in the Thalia camp. Canonist shines in the Elves matchup but otherwise Thalia is just better. Elves has never been a problem. for me, so I see no reason to play Canonist.
Sneak&Show feels like a 50/50 matchup. They can't cast Show&Tell into a big dude or we show knight into Karakas, teeg shuts off sneak attack. Post board things get swinger if they bring in pyroclasm or blood moon. Revokers have been great in this matchup
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
It seems like you are really impressed by her. I did play a lot of Maverick back in the days, so of course I am in love with her as well. Considering my Maindeck /SB configurations from Post 3327: It could be possible to play a second one over the Ethersworn Canonist and/or a second/third one over the Slaughter Games.
-It is worse against Elves, but to be honest, going down on Abrupt Decays and Dark Confidants postboard didn't really convince me anyways.
-SneakShow (which is worse than 50/50 in my opinion) and Burn, "the bad matchups", are getting better
-The Storm matchup doesn't change a lot.
-I can also see bringing them in against Delver and Miracles, but here are my concerns:
What else could/should we board out against Miracles?
How much does it hinder ourself when playing against Delver? Wasteland can be really crippling.
Are we exposing ourselves to cards like Forked Bolt or Pyroclasm-Effects?
And what else should we board out? Every card just seems so good postboard?
That means: I can definitely see running more than one copy in the 75, but I am skeptical that we will be able to squeeze them in against Delver and Miracles.
I'm reading this thread every day and at the same time I keep testing the deck and I'd like to help to build the list.
Right now I'm playing a stock list with some SB changes based on Niklas' results at Frankfurt. This is what I'm playing:
1 x Dryad Arbor
1 x Scavenging Ooze
1 x Gaddock Teeg
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Knight of the Reliquary
4 x Mox Diamond
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Abrupt Decay
3 x Punishing Fire
2 x Life from the Loam
2 x Green Sun's Zenith
2 x Sylvan Library
3 x Liliana of the Veil
4 x Wasteland
3 x Grove of the Burnwillows
4 x Verdant Catacombs
2 x Windswept Heath
2 x Bayou
1 x Savannah
1 x Scrubland
1 x Taiga
1 x Badlands
1 x Forest
2 x Barren Moor
1 x Tranquil Thicket
1 x Karakas
1 x Maze of Ith
SB:
3 x Leyline of the Void
3 x Thoughtseize
2 x Phyrexian Revoker
1 x Reclamation Sage
1 x Garruk Relentless
1 x Chandra, Flamecaller
3 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Golgari Charm
I like a lot this maindeck, and I don't like even more singletones with DRS and the combo. DRS at least gives us some utilities, helps our manabase and it's pure card quality so I can understand this, but the combo makes our initial hand worse as our Delver matchup as well, and because of this we need to play 27 lands what is horrible when you are going to the top without any card advantage.
A couple of months ago I was searching for an impactful sideboard card to beat Shardless BUG and I tried Meren of Clan Nel Thoth, the second Garruk Relentless and the third Life from the Loam, but I think I've found it with Chandra, Flamecaller. It's the perfect bomb. From the other options I like a lot the third Life from the Loam to have the Wasteland engine ASAP, what is really helpful against many other archetypes or just win through card advantage with cycle lands, but as I said I like the maindeck so I'd see it as a sideboard slot.
About sweepers I don't think we need more of them right now, and I don't like the idea of giving more importance to red sources with more red cards. Maybe if you want a second sweeper the answer could be Pyroclasm over Volcanic Fallout... Yeah, this is great vs PW and can't be countered but you'll run it especially against Delver and D&T, and against them it's too hard to have two red sources available, they'll punish you a lot through Wasteland, Revoker on Mox Diamond, Stifle... And against Elves I don't think we need more meat, I think it's a good matchup. So as D&T and Delver are not especially hard matchups it's by this why I think that we don't need more sweepers.
As you can see I'm worried about the Sneak & Show matchup as well, and by this I bring in the third Thoughtseize and Revokers, that are more useful than Thalia, Canonist and Priest these days. You can board in them against D&T, Miracles, Elves, Storm, Sneak & Show... and the rest are not good against all of those. Depending on the expected amount of combo I'd run the third Loam over the third Thoughtseize or maybe another sweeper, but I'm pretty happy with the rest.
What do you think especially about this sideboard?
In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except DEATH & TAXES
I do not bring them in against miracles - I actually think this is bad (I have seen other people post they bring thalia in...why??). For delver variations, its possible that you can no longer bring them in now that we are potentially bringing in some number of swords to plowshares.
Vs all delvers I am cutting my Gaddock Teeg. I have had good experiences cutting Green Sun's Zenith because it is very difficult to resolve for X=3 vs their decks. So I've swapped those two for Thalia. By swapping an effective 4 CMC card for a 2 CMC card you increase your interaction in the early turns and reduce the chance you lose by playing into their soft permission. It slows them down a lot, which is great for us. Also a side note- I don't think any delvers will bring in sweepers vs us (such as rough // tumble). Grixis cant because it kills their own stuff, and as far as they know the only creature it will kill is Dark Confidant or 0 counters ooze.
VS Rug I could see taking swords to plowshares instead of thalia, simply because it answers Tarmogoyf. Vs grixis I think thalia may be better than swords to plowshares, since Gurmag Angler is the only guy who can't be answered via punishing fire / decay, so I Will just maze him or make them sacrifice him via Liliana. Unfortunately, Thalia is a nonbo with Golgari Charm (a card I love to have vs young P decks, also they might bring in or already have TNN). Vs bug delver she is great in the sense that their abrupt decay now costs 3 mana, but unfortunately they also have Tarmogoyf. But who plays that shit anyways?
I am really high on 2 Thalia / 1 Containment Priest split. Thalia also comes in vs Burn to slow them. But the fact they are all effective vs Sneak and Show is the icing on the cake.
I do not bring them in against miracles - I actually think this is bad (I have seen other people post they bring thalia in...why??). For delver variations, its possible that you can no longer bring them in now that we are potentially bringing in some number of swords to plowshares.
Vs all delvers I am cutting my Gaddock Teeg. I have had good experiences cutting Green Sun's Zenith because it is very difficult to resolve for X=3 vs their decks. So I've swapped those two for Thalia. By swapping an effective 4 CMC card for a 2 CMC card you increase your interaction in the early turns and reduce the chance you lose by playing into their soft permission. It slows them down a lot, which is great for us. Also a side note- I don't think any delvers will bring in sweepers vs us (such as rough // tumble). Grixis cant because it kills their own stuff, and as far as they know the only creature it will kill is Dark Confidant or 0 counters ooze.
VS Rug I could see taking swords to plowshares instead of thalia, simply because it answers Tarmogoyf. Vs grixis I think thalia may be better than swords to plowshares, since Gurmag Angler is the only guy who can't be answered via punishing fire / decay, so I Will just maze him or make them sacrifice him via Liliana. Unfortunately, Thalia is a nonbo with Golgari Charm (a card I love to have vs young P decks, also they might bring in or already have TNN). Vs bug delver she is great in the sense that their abrupt decay now costs 3 mana, but unfortunately they also have Tarmogoyf. But who plays that shit anyways?
I am really high on 2 Thalia / 1 Containment Priest split. Thalia also comes in vs Burn to slow them. But the fact they are all effective vs Sneak and Show is the icing on the cake.
While everyone is high on thalia and all, can i suggest that pithing needle might be a good sb card against sneak attack as well? Thalia does slow them down but needle narrows their angle of going off. The compromise would of course be the storm match-ups which we aren't that bad against them to begin with. Plus needle is more versatile in matchups like miracles, nic fit, decks with aether vials.
Just 2 cents from a player that just started playing this deck
For reference, this is the list I'm playing
Land (27)
2x Bayou
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Taiga
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
Creature (11)
3x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
Instant (7)
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
3x Punishing Fire
Sorcery (5)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
Artifact (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
Enchantment (2)
2x Sylvan Library
Sideboard (15)
1x Choke
2x Dread of Night (might change after testing)
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Pyroclasm
I've been playing the maindeck for quite a while like that. Maybe half a year ago I cut a cycle land or something. The board changes more frequently.
The way I board against Miracles is:
Out:
1 DRS
1 Scooze
1 Dismember
1 Pfire
1 Mox Diamond
1 Loam
In:
1 Choke
2 Thalia
2 Revoker
1 Rec Sage
It of course matters what kind of miracles the opponent is on, and how they play, how many creatures I see, etc.
Miracles' early game is weak to hatebears like Revoker and Thalia and landing them early can give us a lot of time to craft a strong position. They also tend to keep hands that rely on heavy top/cantrip use.
Every single time i've tried taking out the second Mox against Miracles, I've gotten mooned out of the game. It hurts us in the late game, but my goal is to establish an advantage in the early game. (Failing that, I'm also happy to go long against them)
I don't board in Thalia against Delver because she might actually backfire there. I'm quote low risk when boarding against non-bug delver as the matchup does not require much effort on my part. Something like IN: Clasms, Pulse if I see pyro OUT: Teeg, Bob, Pridemage
@mike1987
Revoker does all that you described, as well as interact with LED+Petal from storm. Needle's advantage is that it hits lands (against Lands) and can give you some more percentage points against Belcheresque decks. I prefer Revoker ATM.
Hey, I used to play a lot of Legacy but more recently took a break for real life stuff. Anyway, thought about going to the Grand Prix and played this list here a few days ago.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...gue-2016-06-02
I had some questions about this deck though as I'm not really sure how aggressive or defensive this deck really is.
1. How often do you prioritize Dredging back Life from the Loam? Obviously this is very dependent on the situation, but it often felt to me that Loam was really just an afterthought for Wasteland or Grove and rarely an engine I wanted to depend on like if I was playing Lands or something.
2. I feel like I often board out Maze of Ith, but I still think it is worth keeping in the main-deck, but against decks where Karakas does nothing, is it reasonable to cut it on the draw for G2/G3? The land count in this deck is really confusing since I basically never want to have Dryad in my opening hand.
3. I'm not really sure how I feel about the Depths/Stage combo, I've never been in a spot where it would be ideal, and I find myself just happy attacking with Knight ect. Is there a real advantage I am not seeing here?
4. Lastly, I felt as though any opening 7 without Mox Diamond or GSZ on turn 1 had to be really solid (aka: Mana Color wasn't an issue and I could reasonably curve out). Basically, I'm not sure how aggressively I can mulligan with this deck.
Thanks a bunch. Sorry if this is already laid out somewhere in this giant thread.
Not a pro here but i hope i can answer some of your questions.
1. For me, i would dredge if i am actively wastelocking or ahead on board. If there is a cycle land in graveyard, i will most likely be dredging too. Would not dredge if i am in dire need for an answer like liliana, decay,knight
3. Having depths combo is good against other combo decks as it increases our clock much faster with knight and crop rotation. Ultimately, the combo decks will have inevitability against us so we got to put a clock on them too. Not to mention it might garner us some free wins here and there.
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