[Deck] Jund

[Manroe]

I've always been torn between the power of the Punishing Fire engine and the awful manabase associated with running four Groves. I've been playing an Un-Punishing Jund list for a while to enjoy the manabase. Here's where I am currently, after trying a variety of the non-traditional lists.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Wasteland

-----Sideboard-----
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Boil
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Xenagos, the Reveler


This version's manabase is great. The split of B/G/R casting costs in the maindeck is 32/17/9, which justifies the basic Forest, although it can be awkward. The average casting cost for Bob is 1.25.

The Kolagahan's Commands have been really excellent for me, enough that I'm running a second one over a fourth Liliana. Similarly the Sylvan Libraries are great by themselves and especially good with the Dark Confidants and Bloodbraids.

It's tough to narrow the sideboard down to just 15 cards. My local metagame includes Miracles, Eldrazi, lots of Elves, Grixis Delver, Death and Taxes, and Stoneblade. I want to try a Xenegos against Miracles-haste makes a big difference in the 2/2s.

I was thinking of what a no fires list would look like today and kind of thought maybe a white splash for lingering souls would be worth a try? What do you think?

[AngryTroll]

I hadn't considered Lingering Souls in Jund at all. My first thought is that it's awkward on both the manabase and the curve with Dark Confidant, but I've never tried it, and I can't recall ever seeing a Jund list with Souls.

[alohazendo]

I was thinking of what a no fires list would look like today and kind of thought maybe a white splash for lingering souls would be worth a try? What do you think?

I think Lingering would just undo all of the effort that was made towards unjanking the mana base when you removed the Groves. I also doubt that it would be terribly impactful in any deck without equipment. If it works, that's great, but I don't see it.

[Manroe]

I think Lingering would just undo all of the effort that was made towards unjanking the mana base when you removed the Groves. I also doubt that it would be terribly impactful in any deck without equipment. If it works, that's great, but I don't see it.

I could've sworn I have seen it done before but maybe that was modern? I could be wrong though.

[juzamjimjams]

I could've sworn I have seen it done before but maybe that was modern? I could be wrong though.

I could be wrong, but I think you're thinking of Ajundi. Modern Jund in the time of deathrite splashing souls + Ajani Vengeant.

[Ricardio]

But if you remove groves and add white, you can add sfm, souls, swords?

[sdematt]

But if you remove groves and add white, you can add sfm, souls, swords?

The whole point, folks. If youre splashing Souls, run my Junk list.

Otherwise, run Jund. I dont think Fires is bad at all. Im just not certain about BBE; but Confidant is great, although I do love Truths too.

[razvan]

Yea no sense in making it 4-color. They are 2 different decks like Matt said, and making a bastard of it will end up like Joffrey Baratheon. Annoying and not very good.

I am still trying to find a proper solution instead of BBE. It might just be the best solution anyway.

[Manroe]

Yea no sense in making it 4-color. They are 2 different decks like Matt said, and making a bastard of it will end up like Joffrey Baratheon. Annoying and not very good.

I am still trying to find a proper solution instead of BBE. It might just be the best solution anyway.

The only other real option is what, Huntmaster? Kalitas could have applications but at 4cc you really want something with an etb effect right?

[sdematt]

The only other real option is what, Huntmaster? Kalitas could have applications but at 4cc you really want something with an etb effect right?

Im trying Avalanche Riders...

[sampi]

Fulminator Mage ?

[sdematt]

Fulminator Mage ?

Haste and blowing up Basics is tech. Then bringing it back with Command is sweeet.

[Manroe]

So is there pretty much a consensus on what should be in the sideboard these days? I'm taking this to GP Columbus.

I'm going with this SB:

1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pyroblast
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Extirpate
1 Maelstrom Pulse


Would like to tune this more towards miracles and Eldrazi, if possible.

[Seraphix]

So is there pretty much a consensus on what should be in the sideboard these days? I'm taking this to GP Columbus.

I'm going with this SB:

1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pyroblast
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Extirpate
1 Maelstrom Pulse


Would like to tune this more towards miracles and Eldrazi, if possible.

For a large, open meta like a GP, I'd want to have some number of Duress in the board. It affords cheap interaction against all the random stuff that can show up in the first few rounds, and is a fine addition against most combo decks.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

The only other real option is what, Huntmaster? Kalitas could have applications but at 4cc you really want something with an etb effect right?

I havent been liking BBE either as it is too unreliable...
Tasigur might be a decent replacement but not as a three of... Maybe 2 Huntmaster and 1 Tasigur instead...
Kalitas doesnt seem very good in legacy because there are less creatures in legacy than in Modern which reduces its effectiveness... Avalanche Riders seems too unimpactful to warrant an include as a 4drop.

[sdematt]

I've updated my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scooze
2 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Avalanche Riders
15

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Punishing Fires
3 Painful Truths
1 Life from the Loam

2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
20

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
22
-----Sideboard-----
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Boil
1 From the Ashes
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ensnaring Bridge/Command #2

Much more control, and with quite a bit of LD. Riders is nice at both pressuring Jace and their basic land manabase which you normally cannot touch.

Tombstalker can, at times, be hard to cast, but he he's your over the top threat like he was back in Team America. You play him late and go to town and fly over a locked ground. Angler is easier to cast, but getting caught up on the ground isn't ideal.

Board is a smattering to cover Eldrazi and Miracles. Need more testing against Eldrazi :/

[razvan]

Again, I don't know if BBE *can* be beaten for that slot.

Avalanche Riders is a good comparison since they cost the same and are both haste creatures (well, a colorless instead of green mana). So a comparison, and I put creature types in it in case we run Plague, or who the hell knows what effect happens randomly.

Riders (Human Nomad)
- Destroys Land

BBE (Elf Berserker)
- Can cascade into Bolt, Fire, Liliana, Hymn, Abrupt Decay, Library, Deathrite, Tarmogoyf, random other SB cards
- One extra power (relevant if Jace, or even Liliana)
- Sticks around due to no echo

So the effect is stone rain vs. all the other stuff. It's difficult to estimate the actual effect (removal can be amazing, a bolt to the face less so most of the time, or an abrupt decay with no targets). Stone Rain as an effect IS very good, but I think the cascade is slightly better. And given the other 2 things, I think BBE is just better.

[sampi]

The fact that avalanche riders doesn't really do anything vs a field with multiple deathrite's, explorations and other fast mana spells in play already (which is very common) and the fact that it is harder to interact with BBE makes it alot better IMO.

Here's what i'm currently working with.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Duress

Most of the list's I've seen are running 6 black duals with 4 groves but I like having the fetch-able g/r source. Also I'm greedy and like having 4 wastelands.

I'm probably going to cut the 4th lili for a painful truths but can't bring myself to take it out. Also the pulse will become K command.

Any initial thoughts or obvious mistakes in the list? Also the edicts are for eldrazi but haven't had a chance to play the MU yet.


Edit: Has anyone tried painters servant for eldrazi? Considering we already run p blasts in the board, might be a nice addition.

[sdematt]

Again, I don't know if BBE *can* be beaten for that slot.

Avalanche Riders is a good comparison since they cost the same and are both haste creatures (well, a colorless instead of green mana). So a comparison, and I put creature types in it in case we run Plague, or who the hell knows what effect happens randomly.

Riders (Human Nomad)
- Destroys Land

BBE (Elf Berserker)
- Can cascade into Bolt, Fire, Liliana, Hymn, Abrupt Decay, Library, Deathrite, Tarmogoyf, random other SB cards
- One extra power (relevant if Jace, or even Liliana)
- Sticks around due to no echo

So the effect is stone rain vs. all the other stuff. It's difficult to estimate the actual effect (removal can be amazing, a bolt to the face less so most of the time, or an abrupt decay with no targets). Stone Rain as an effect IS very good, but I think the cascade is slightly better. And given the other 2 things, I think BBE is just better.

If you run Bbe,you cannot run Truths. Thats the point :p

[AngryTroll]

I've updated my list:

...
2 Tombstalker
3 Avalanche Riders
...
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Painful Truths
1 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
...

...
Tombstalker can, at times, be hard to cast, but he he's your over the top threat like he was back in Team America. You play him late and go to town and fly over a locked ground. Angler is easier to cast, but getting caught up on the ground isn't ideal

(trimmed for ease of reading)


I like the look of this list. A couple of things jump out at me (having played sdematt's Huntmaster build and currently playing a Fires-less Bloodbraid list):

I've found Tombstalker to be great at suddenly ending games. Jund (and Liliana in particular) encourages long, grindy games, and a topdecked Tombstalker is a massive threat. I dislike that every threat in this list besides the Avalanche Riders is turned off by a Rest in Peace, but there's not many good ways around that.

I'm a big fan of 2 Sylvan Library and 3 (or 4) Liliana. Everyone seems to agree on the Lilianas, but the I'd rank these two together as the best cards in the deck.

I go back and forth on Painful Truths. Sometimes it's backbreaking for an opponent and breaks the game open, but sometimes it feels pretty clunky. Three seems like a lot of 3-drop card drawing spells.

Finally, the four drop slot. The options seem to be Avalanche Riders, Bloodbraid Elf, Huntmaster of the Fells (or Arlinn Kord), and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. I ran Huntmasters for a long time, am currently running Bloodbraids, and am interested in the Avalanche Riders and Kalitas.

The combination of Avalanche Riders, 4 Wasteland, and the Life from the Loam certainly pushes the deck in a particular direction. I imagine you pick up points against Eldrazi this way.

People in this thread have directly compared Huntmaster and Bloodbraid by talking about the minimum and maximum value you get out of them. Huntmaster has a higher floor than Bloodbraid, and the ceiling is pretty high when it starts flipping back and forth. On the other hand, I don't often get to flip Huntmaster. Bloodbraid consistently falls somewhere in the middle of the Huntmaster's range.

Bloodbraid puts a few interesting constraints on the deck. In addition to excluding Painful Truths (and Green Sun's Zenith) BBE encourages adding some value three-drops to the deck like Kolaghan's Command or Maelstrom Pulse to go with the Liliana to maximize the value of the random card. Dark Confidant encourages streamlining the curve. I've never been thrilled to run Pyroclast in the board in the Bloodbraid lists because of the chance of bricking; in BBE lists, Choke is my go-to sideboard slot instead of Pyroblast. However, this means that after boarding the curve is even steeper for Bob. Sylvan Library is excellent with both.


How has the Riders Jund list been playing? What's working and what still has room for improvement? I really enjoy the discussion of the various Jund options (especially the outside-the-box ideas).