As I mentioned in my details about the build. Ensnaring Bridge is for the U/G build, because with brainstorm and trinket mage, you can filter cards out of your hand.Originally Posted by THATONE
In the last two weeks I have played against burn, miracles, reanimator, death and taxes, eldrazi aggro, Sneaky Show, Omni to name a few, and bridge have saved me when no other card would.
The real answer to your question isn't "Moment's peace, Elephant grass, spellskite" it is that you either need to come to terms with the fact that the C/g build has glaring matchup weaknesses that previously were abused by their being no real aggro in the format and very few combo (only omni because it was dominating all other combo), Or you can move to U/g, which can much more easily support ensnaring bridge @ 0 cards in hand.
I wanted to add on to this really quickly. The other thing is that different builds accomplish the same goals with different cards. My colorless list can support Ensnaring Bridge relatively easily because it tends to get rid of cards quickly. I also run Silent Arbiter as another way to hold off idiots. If you're running C/g, Maze of Ith and Candelabra of Tawnos can accomplish more or less the same thing by holding off multiple creatures at the same time. Because I play almost exclusively at sorcery speed, my answers are preemptive: Thought-Knot Seer and sphere effects for combo, Karn Liberated for spot removal, for instance.
Part of your build choice should be the general meta where you are and part of it should be what your strengths are as a player. That's one of the great things about the deck: put in the mana engine and then customize it to your liking. I like Sensei's Divining Top; BoozeCube doesn't. Some U/G builds always have Trinket Mage; others don't. And so on.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
I'm thinking to build a colorless list. What do you think of your list regarding the current metagame?
I like it enough to develop it, obviously. It's sort of the love child of classic 12-Post and Eldrazi. It has pretty solid matchups against all of the Decks to Beat on here, and has at least a fighting chance against most of the rest if your topdecks are decent. Sphere effects can slow anyone down, Needles and Revokers can cut off random pieces of combo, Silent Arbiter stops swarms, Thought-Knot Seer can also catch random pieces of combo, and at higher CMCs you have board wipes, planeswalkers and really big guns. There's even graveyard hate in the main. I'm still developing the sideboard, but in its current form there tends to be multiple pieces you can bring in at a time to reinforce your various matchups.
Having said that, the deck is very much a slave to its topdecks. If you draw poorly, you will lose. If you have to mulligan a lot and you're not King Mise of Topdeckistan, you will lose. Decks that can kill you on the first turn almost always will.
But I like it. I've had success with it. I'll keep playing it until it stops being fun and/or I stop having success.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Crop Rotation
4 Pithing Needle
2 Expedition Map
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Show and Tell
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Trinket Mage
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moment's Peace
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Swan Song
2 Moment's Peace
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Here's what I've been running online. Very similar to RL's list...I'm liking the ensnaring bridges, although I'm not a fan of warping wail. It has 3 modes...but they're just so narrow. I have a full set of pithing needles (not just good against wasteland!) and a single moment's peace to help out against creature combat. Yeah it folds to storm game 1...but what else is new. Has a much better game against mid-range decks than I thought it would. The variety of must answers pieces is just too solid..ensnaring bridge, show and tell, late game inevitability, it's all here!
Also has surprising game vs elves. Ensnaring bridge for their beat combo, pithing needle for their shaman, multiple moment's peaces to lock them out of the beats, show and telling a titan, explosives for 1 or 2, and an ugin! Lot's of incidental hate!
Running 5 fetches/3 trops because I like the option of shuffling after a top/brainstorm.
SB is built for storm and more creature hate.
Don't forget about Warping Wail's token mode vs Infect. A good Infect player will often cast kicked Vines precombat to get around Maze. If they're using Glistener Elf (or Viridian Corrupter postboard), you can make a surprise chump blocker here. (And they can't Berserk in response because of Vines!) It's saved my life several times.
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Vines still lets them target their own creature, but if you use Wail to exile the creature in response to Vines then Berserk will not save it as its toughness will still be 1.
a.k.a. Eddy Viscosity
This is correct. Vines is like super-hexproof: if for some reason someone cast it on your creature, you can't target that creature, but they still can. You'll have to Wail in response to Vines, or else they will probably just run you over.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Won a monthly this weekend with a slightly modified Gw 12post deck from Ehhh's list.
Round 1 - Lost to Burn in three games. Kept a mediocre 6 on the draw and was punished.
Round 2 - Win against Shardless BUG
Round 3 - Win against UWR Stoneblade including a victory at 1 life.
Round 4 - Win against Sharldess BUG. I did lose a game where I drew Eye of Ugin too early and was forced to discard it to Liliana.
Round 5 - ID with Burn
Top 8 - Destroyed Miracles
Top 4 - Destroyed Miracles again.
Final - Win over Lands.
Completely blanked on how dumb thespian stage is against an opposing dark depths in the finals.
I'm still trying to assess the eldrazi threat. I know it's real, just not many people around are playing it. I'm trying out ensaring bridge / ghostly prison as a two of sideboard to help that matchup out. I'm still not sure that I can empty my hand fast enough to turn on ensnaring bridge.
If you're worried about Chalice on 1 stopping something like Elephant Grass, you can also try Sphere effects. They rely on quickly vomiting out a hand, and Spheres put a pretty good stop to that.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Some of these might be irrelevant depending on your modifications, but I have some questions:
1) How often does GSZ just sit in your hand? Do you almost immediately cast it for whatever you can get or wait to get to 7 mana?
2) No needles? I imagine the Lands matchup would be incredibly difficult without them.
3) I'm generally curious in how your games vs. Shardless went, as these have been rather difficult for me. Did Thought-Knot play any role?
4) Does CoP:R show up often enough to be relevant against Burn? Two copies seems like too few to me.
5) How did Dawnstrider perform?
6) Why Rest in Peace over Surgical Extraction?
a.k.a. Eddy Viscosity
Just a little update on my list:
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Wasteland
1 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Veteran Explorer
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Warping Wail
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sideboard:
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Warping Wail
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Krosan Grip
1 Crop Rotation
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Toxic Deluge
Changes to the maindeck:
+1 Deathrite (for acceleration, better manafixing and additional graveyard hate)
+1 Veteran Explorer (helps a lot against aggressive decks, it's either moat or additional ramp. against some other decks it's bad, but overall i think it deserves the spot)
+1 Forest (with Explorer i really want 3 basics in the deck)
+1 Tabernacle (it helps against delver, it's always nice to have against empty the warrens, and it can be randomly very good when you are behind against a lot of decks)
-1 Oracle (had to cut something, still 2 more in the deck)
-1 Crucible (get's a little worse with less oracles, so for now 2 have to be enough)
-1 Savannah (had 2, the Forest takes that spot, didn't really need it)
-1 Sea Gate Wreckage (i really liked that land and wish i could keep it, but overall i think every other utility land is more important, and i can't cut any more colored sources or posts)
The board changed a lot, mostly inspired by other decks in this thread. I tested different cards, right now i'm happy with it.
My winrate is slightly down to just ~2/3 of my matches. That's imo because the xmage meta changed a lot, i was facing a lot more perceived bad matchups - instead of Lands or Death&Taxes now i'm mostly playing against different Delver or Combo Decks. I still think my deck got better, because my bad matchups feel better than before.
Just going by the "Decks to Beat" in this forum, the deck feels very well positioned. Out of the Top 10 Decks just UR-Delver is really bad, BUG Delver and Grixis Delver are slightly unfavorable, everything else is slightly favorable (Storm, Shardless, Eldrazi) or very favorable (Miracles, Death&Taxes, Elves, Sneak&Show) just going by my results (i don't know enough about most of these decks to tell if my opponents just played bad, but i haven't seen many game-changing missplays, and i made a few of these myself). And further down the list in the Top 20 Decks just RUG Delver and Aggro Loam seem slightly unfavorable.
Compared to other 12-Post Decks i think my main advantage is that i can play like a midrange deck. In some matchups i can actually board out my Eldrazi and just ignore the ramp plan. In many traditionally bad matchups for 12-Post that seems to be helping a lot. And even if i don't board the Eldrazi out, i won games against most decks without going the traditional route. There should be a cost to that, but so far i haven't really found it (maybe the mirror, but i'm about 50/50 there too).
I hope at some point other players give it a try, maybe after the GP.
And again. Weekly Legacy event, another undefeated run 4-0 against Miracles, 4cDelver, DnT, BuG Delver. Same list. This list is potent. If you are going to the GP, run this.
Quoted for emphasis and reminder that this list hasn't changed at all.
Been lurking on this page for a bit and testing some of the ideas from this page. I tried out the colorless build and top 4'd the Tampa IQ however I feel there is some more tuning needed on it still so I am taking Rock's UG list to Columbus. I will let you guys know how it goes.
What do you need Bridge / Ghostly Prison for? I use to play Moat when I had Dark Depths combo it was great.. but then you'd need Basic Plains to fetch
Yeah if you're struggling vs Eldrazi, Veteran is clearly your first plan (1 or 2 Mana Moat) [They have to Warping Wail it to have a chance of an early kill] - if you resolve Moat the game almost ends on the spot because it will buy you so much time to establish whatever plan you want, maybe buys you 4-5 turns depending on their start. (Borrow the Moats if you can, you don't have to buy them for the GP). If you do go with this plan I'd Suggest Dark Depths. I mean Tabernacle is great vs them also it slows down their ability to play creatures and support the upkeep. Dawnstrider is amazing vs Infect (Piracy Charm is their only out - IF they play it) otherwise it is GG. Also great vs any swarm deck like Elves, Goblins, Merfolk. (Abrupt Decay in elves matchup is usually sided out or highly reduced). I've played Moment's Peace vs Eldrazi and it is just ok... saving a few turns doesn't really do the job. Drop of Honey might be ok? I haven't really tried it vs them (Chalice = X might be a problem) I've won alot of games by Glacial Chasm into Copying w/ Thespian's Stage for extra turns.. that play is so sweet to do vs aggro. Msg me your list and what you're thinking about changing. I haven't been testing this new version yet but I have alot of insight of what was working.
I can explain alot of this too
1. GSZ early is for Veteran, Mid is for Oracle and Lastly Prime Time, the Idea is like playing 7 Prime Times - in This Deck it is like Winning the game if you resolve a Prime Time.
2. Needle is an amazing versatile card, especially when you're expecting wasteland decks - they can obviously disrupt playing land. I noticed I would side out / trim from my builds. I think Pithing Needle is necessary vs Sneak and Show but I haven't played vs that deck much, I have lost to Shardless too often and I wanted to make that matchup much better, more than 50% wasn't cutting it, Needle is a card that always got abrupt decayed. I don't feel it is necessary anymore - Understand the build of this 12 Post, it has 4 Crop rotation vs Wasteland but it also has Basic Lands, you don't necessarily need Cloudpost for the early turns, and that is the main target for wasteland. (also the main reason we play Needle is for wasteland) otherwise it hits random activated permanents that aren't super relevant aside from Sneak Attack and maybe Belcher
3. I'm also curious about how Shardless went, That is the main reason for my tweaks to the deck was to Beat Shardless ..
4. So COP red is in the sideboard because it is tough to beat PoP (Price of Progress) the early game has alot of basics so they don't fire off PoP but with addition of Leyline it buys you time / builds a fortress of hate cards that inevitably provide a cushion to win the game. OBviously Glimmerpost is great when you have these enchantments in play. you can play more CoP Reds, but I found 2 was where I wanted to be, it is only vs Price of Progress decks. (Tough Card to beat for our Deck). Usual Suspects are Burn and Delver Red
5. Dawnstrider is in there vs Elves and Mainly Infect (they have no out to it if you untap) [Also GSZ Target] it is like playing 4 copies
6. RiP is easy to cast in this deck and it is slow down Goyfs and DeathRite Shaman, Surgical can get thought seized or discarded later in the game, where as playing permanents force the issue for an opponent to find an answer to. I much perfer playing Permanents as hate then reacting, So vs Storm when I played UG 12 Post being reactive with Flusterstorm and Mindbreak Trap .. i would just lose my hand from all the discard and still lose... if I play 3-4 different hate cards .. it is much more difficult for them to find all their sideboard bounce / creature removal spell, etc...
This is very tempting to swap to...except I'm not sure I can snag the bridges or 3rd Flusterstorm in time at this point. Plus I've got experience with my white splash. But as soon as I get back I'm swapping to this.
I've been testing Depths in C/g Post for over a month now, and I'm still very unsure about whether I actually like it. Perhaps I'm using it suboptimally, perhaps overcautiously. I never go for the combo in matchups where the opponent has StP or Karakas. I never go for it when Stage is my 3rd Post (or where Eye is online if I find it).
My question for other people who use Depths: how aggressively do you go for the combo, and in what situations/matchups?
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I have the same issue in the C/g build. I am never sure when to aggressively search up depths/stage. Every once in a while I will cast titan and search up both lands, which sometimes keeps people for destroying mr. prime time. Still a great question that I am on the fence about, and would love to here some experienced players thoughts.
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