not quite sure if I got u right, u want to cut vex for drs?
I am completely fine with 4 vex and in the meantime I even cut my 2nd drs.
ramp is perfectly fine and I still have three big threats (2 rhino, sigarda) which I can play.
furthermore I added both elspeth's which I try to get on the board as early as possible.
I like the idea of cutting painful truths and maybe I add the third equipment (SoFaI).
second tracker would be great as well but no space.
my curve is what I really like.
1: 15
2: 9
3: 7
4: 3
5: 2
6: 1
4 vex
3 sfm
2 rhino
1 tracker
1 ewitness
1 scooze
1 drs
1 ste
1 sigarda
4 Cabal therapy
3 gsz
3 pte
3 decay
3 deed
3 top
1 ptruths
1 vindicate
1 batterskull
1 jitte
1 elspeth, Sun's
1 elspeth, Knight or garruk r
2 bayou
2 savannah
6 basics
8 fetchies
1 phyrexian tower
1 karakas
1 scrubland
Just after Siege Rhino came out I tried a list with 4 DRS, 4 SfM and a single vet to fetch off GSZ. It didn't play deeds but full sets of Decays and Paths which allowed Lingering Souls too. It felt pretty strong actually, maybe something to revisit!Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
On another note I'm bringing BUG pod to my LGS tonight to unwind after GP Prague, trying out Deadeye Navigator as the curve topping bomb, I've only seen Arianrhod mention it before. It's pretty cute with Peregrine Drake making infinite mana, then you can flicker Finks or Tusk for infinite life and beasts, Strix for card draw, Redcap for Damage etc.
Need to put a SB together still, probably some generic combo hate like Flusters, Duresses etc
4 Explorer
1 DRS
4 Strix
1 Ooze
1 P Image
1 E Wit
1 Finks
1 Perstermite
1 Metamorph
1 Glen Elendra
1 Redcap
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Peregrine Drake
1 Deadeye Navigator
3 Pod
4 Decay
3 Deed
4 Therapy
4 Brainstorm
1 Pulse
2 Trop
2 Sea
2 Bayou
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant
2 Misty
2 Delta
Fixed that for yah
I've done this against Miracles before, turn a land into a 3/3, block and kill Snapcaster, swing for the win.
If you're still running big drops I think vet is totally fine. I feel like Have seen lists that forgoe the higher Cmc cards and curve out with a few 4 drops. Maybe not though.
Didn't that deck top 8 something big recently? Junk deadguy? I think you can take most nic fit decks, cut the top end and swap vet for DRS and therapy for TS and have a reasonable deck. It's just a rock deck really, just with a bigger top end than normally possible in legacy.
Let me know how it goes. I think BUG Pod is worse than BUG nic fit without pod, but it's still super fun while being viable and I'm planning on bringing it to an FNM soon. It hadn't occurred to me to combo out with navigator before.
Thank you, that is what I ment.Fixed that for yah
I've done this against Miracles before, turn a land into a 3/3, block and kill Snapcaster, swing for the win.
DRS shouldn't be seen as a reliable source of ramp, it usually gets killed on sight. That's what makes VetEx so good - it's supposed to die. Sure, baiting removal is a thing, but it doesn't let you pull in front of your opponent. You're both down a card and you're no closer to casting whatever nasty thing it is you want to cast.
I think our current 4/2 split is fine (or 4/1/1). I think Junk Blade/The Rock is a decent choice now as well. Ill post more after exams are over.... :/
Alright, my turn.
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Painful Truths
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant
4 Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Thoughtseize
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Celestial Purge
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Krosan Grip
1 Dread of Night
2 Tsunami
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ob Nixillis, Reignited
Close to Ari's List with a bit of a different sideboard.
First 2 rounds: Byes since I just had enough PP to get them.
Round 3: Jarvis Wu with Lands
Well, shit. I was hoping to avoid some pros. Nope, I just get the last legacy GP winner off the bat.
Game 1: I don't get much of an offense going before I get all my white tapped while holding at least 2 path to exiles.
In: Thoughtseize x2, Grip, Purge, Spellbomb? Out: Therapy x4, something else.
Game 2: I seize his exploration on turn one slowly him down a bit. I resolve a Rhino, he has a maze. I vindicate it, he gets it back with loam. I get my vindicate back with witness and hit him again.
I hit him again with witness while he mazes the rhino. He is at 6, while I'm at 24. He finally gets a merit lage out while having a 6 power tracker. He attacks with the token then mazes at the end of combat.
So 1 maze available along with the 6 power tracker and merit lage vs my tusk, rhino and 6 power tracker. I think he had one fire at this point. But not 2. I top a GSZ to the top but don't enough mana to rhino him out.
I decide to path the token instead purging it and trade tracker for tracker (instead of pathing it) while he mazes my tusk. He gambles for a fire (I believe) doesn't discard it and kills me. Pretty sure that was a punt but it was a very stressful game.
Round 4: Miracles
Wonderful.
Game 1: I never really get any traction or threats and die pretty quickly to angels.
Out: Therapy x4, Vet x2, In: Both Sorins, Ob Nix, TS x2, K-grip, (dread of night and Tsunami?)
Game 2: Looks like I got a rhino out but it hit the terminus train out of town. Not much other action
Round 5: Sneak and Show
Blech.
Game 1 (mull to 6): He turns 2 a Show while putting in griselbrand, While I put in Teeg. He draws 14 and goes down to 4. I path the griselbrand (which he tries to force, good job)
Sadly, he has another show for sneak (I didn't have the rhino for the blowout sadly) and big daddy Emra wipes my board.
In: TS x2, Purge, K Grip, sage Out: Garruk, Elspeth, Decay x3
Game 2 (mull to 6): An Early Emrakul hit sets me back a lot and I never can really rebuild
So, 3 matches, 3 bad matchup and zero games won. I was pretty tilted at this point and decide to switch up my playmat from the rhino to the geist one.
Round 6: 4 Color Delver
Game 1: Classic Therapy, Vet start. He has some early pressure which I contain, Rhino comes down and stabilizes and I end the game at 6 life.
In: Tsunami x2, purge, charm Out: DRS, Teeg, Ooze, GSZ
Game 2: Some early therapy rip his hand apart and thragtusk mops up.
Round 7: Eldrazi
Game 1: Vet ramped me up while I took the skies with dromaka. Garruk held the ground quite well.
In: Sorin, Lord of Innistrad.
Game 2: I flooded the ground with creatures that held off 2 endless ones and 2 reality smasher until sorin was ready to ultimate and take their smashers
4-3, now
Round 8: D and T
Game 1: Early therapies cleared the way for some Tusk and wolf beatdown.
Game 2: Took some early damage from flyer but cleared the way for a bunch of elspeth tokens to seal up the game
Round 9: ANT
Game 1: A turn 2 therapy showed ANT, which I had GSZ for teeg, but he duressed it away. I cast a total of 6 therapies (even sac'd a rhino) before sealing up the deal with teeg.
Game 2: Seize into therapy, explorer and then ooze (which I had to play around disfigure). I got to regenerate my Ooze via a charm when he tried to decay it.
On to day 2
3 losses (0-6), 4 wins (8-0)
After a couple of drinks, I wind down and head back to my hotel, sadly my car buddies decide to go drinking, and get fairly wasted. Luckily, I brought ear plugs with so I didn't have to hear much of it.
Round 10: D and T
Game 1: Never really in any danger in this game, I just go bigger and destroy him.
In: Charm, Deluge, Rec Sage, Krosan Grip, Dread of Night
Out: Vet x2, Vindicate, GSZ, Ooze.
Game 2: Garruk Relentless did some work here, eventually tutoring up Sigarda, which prompted him to call a judge over for the oracle text of it and cataclysm. And then he just scooped.
7-3
Round 11: Grixis Delver
Game 1: Got run over by delver and friends
In: Purge, Deluge, Charm, Tsnumai x2 Out: Elpseth, Vindicate, Ooze, Teeg, DRS
Game 2: Took some hits but therapy/vet/rhino/tsunami wins out
Game 3: We both mull to 6 and I keep a sketch one land with a therapy and 2 gsz, I fight thru not getting my 2nd land til turn 3, multiple dazes. At one point we are both hellbent and a painful truths for 3, going to 4. Luckily, I find a rhino then a thragtusk and then a dromoka. Pulled it out. 8-3
Round 12: ANT
Game 1: I get nutted on turn 2.
Out: Baneslayer, Elspeth, Path x3, Vindicate, Sigarda, Dromoka In: TS x2, Charm, K-Grip, Rec Sage, Deluge, Canonist, Nihil Spellbomb.
Game 2: I keep Therapy, Vet and some other stuff, while he mulls to 6. I blind name Brainstorm and hit, I see dark rit, cabal rit, ponder, probe, flooded strand.
His turn: Probe, Probe, Flooded, Ponder, Petal, Dark Rit (3 b), Cab Rit (6 b), Cab Rit (9 b), I. Tutor (7 b) I Tutor (5 b) Tendrils, dead. Very tilting.
8-4. Out of the money, probably but playing for pride and maybe some Pro points for the hell of it
Round 13: Big Red (mono red sneak attacks with godo) (I know this deck fairly well since my buddy Andy plays it and loans it to Hoogland)
Game 1: I mulled to 6 and get FSM'd
In: Thoughtseize x2, K-Grip, Rec Sage Out: Garruk, Elspeth (which I probably shouldn't have), Dromoka, Not sure what else
Game 2. Land Teeg, and go beat city
Game 3: Opponent mulls to 5, keeps the top card, plays a land and passes. I ended TS him and taking the emrakul making him shuffle the deck. I don't remember the other choices but he did say that it was some temporary mana
I flood out hard (like 10 lands in play) at the end. He ends trapping me into blowing up my deed for 4 to kill his pyromancy, while I'm at 16 and he has one card in hand. Sadly that last card is an inferno Titan. I get a tusk to stabilize a little but the 2nd inferno titan does me in.
8-5
Round 14: Miracles
Game 1: I try to put up a fight but to no avail.
Game 2: Long grinding game, which I cast at least one terminus. Sorin, Grim Nemesis kills a jace and reveals a deed. Sigarda and rhino finish him off.
Game 3: 10 minutes left. I keep something with Thoughtseize and sorin, grim nemesis. TS reveals a clique but I try to fight through the countermagic but he lands a jace and keeps going up. Ob nixillis gets countered along with Sorin, Grim and I just scoop to jace.
8-6, Drop.
Thoughts are
3 Veteran Explorer, seems like the good number
1 Deathrite Shaman, This should be 2, I think
1 Scavenging Ooze, Still torn on this. Didn't play against any goyfs at, so sideboard at best
1 Gaddock Teeg, I love/hate having this here.
1 Eternal Witness, One still seems fine
1 Tireless Tracker, Did lots of lifting, might want a second
2 Siege Rhino, doing rhino's work
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons, excellent as usual
1 Thragtusk, Still fine
1 Baneslayer Angel, Might not be needed, even with lots of eldrazi
1 Dragonlord Dromoka, so keeping this still
1 Garruk Relentless, da bomb
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion, only did work vs d and T, probably better as a sideboard choice
4 Cabal Therapy (duh)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (not opposed to siding one out at times)
3 Path to Exile (seems like the best number)
3 Abrupt Decay (I can see only 2 in a more eldrazi heavy meta)
1 Vindicate (seemed fine)
3 Pernicious Deed (never leave home with out)
2 Painful Truths (this could one, sometimes too slow)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (2 tops, 1 library also seems fine)
SB:
2 Thoughtseize (fine)
1 Nihil Spellbomb (I missed surgical, extripates)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (seemed fine, might have wanted a second)
1 Toxic Deluge (cast it once, almost a neccesary evil)
1 Celestial Purge (Didn't see any nahiri but did purge a zombie fish)
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad (should be in the main)
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis (best vs slow decks)
1 Krosan Grip (one of is fine)
1 Dread of Night ((d
2 Tsunami
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ob Nixillis, Reignited
Thoughts?
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
Thoughts - from what I saw from the reports so far the meta wasn't really ideal hunting ground for Nic Fit.
This deck is in hot water at the moment.
From what you and others says: -1 painful/+1 Tireless at least
Again, I would like you to think about Beast within instead of Vindicate. For me it's strictly better against Lands and Miracle.
Miracle because you can spoil him at his turn depending on the board (directly or transforming a land into beast to swing him/Jace). Or to kill him something "for free" while casting a terminus.
Land because when beast within in hand, you can break his Marit Lage combo any time: trigger Dark Depth without counter? Wait for it.. I'll give you a little beast instead.
Combo because you can break a LED not fully ready to use, forcing him either loosing 3 mana or droping his hand. It's really casual here, but it's something vindicate will never do. And giving storm a beast is... Well, no comment :D
Crea decks, you're probably already upon him while running enought mana and it's another way to sac Vet with benefits.
Just give it a try.
This deck is always in hot water.
Using my list as a base, we're stupidly favored vs Delver again; we're favored vs Shardless; we're favored vs Eldrazi as long as they don't nut off into oblivion. Miracles is a coinflip to slightly unfavored. ANT is never favored, but we can put up a fight. DnT is extremely favored. Infect is a coinflip. Lands is approximately unwinnable. Elves is awful.
In short, we're about exactly where we need to be in order to be successful. 3 out of the big 4 decks are favored and the 4th isn't that bad. The next couple under that range from unwinnable to virtually unloseable, with the combo decks somewhere in the middle. That's not a bad place to be in the metagame. That's us getting dicked by pairings, which is just the way that things go sometimes. There was literally Grixis Delver and Shardless on all sides of me all 3 of my Day 2 rounds. Instead, I was the lucky guy who got to play vs each table's lone combo player. Things could have very easily gone differently.
Besides, even if none of us prized, there were 3 Nic Fit players on Day 2, with two more that I'm aware of that were in contention until about round 8. I'm fairly sure that's the highest penetration we've had since BUG Pod was tearing the European meta a new one a couple years ago. I consider that a very good sign.
It's a good sign, for sure. I just think we need to be doing some more heavy-duty testing against Miracles to negotiate that matchup a bit better. If we can at least break even on Miracles moreso than unfavourable, we have a chance, here. But, non-blue will always have a tougher time against Combo, and that's something we have to live with.
May I suggest playing at least a Sower ?
I have played numerous games with Metamorph and I've never been impressed by it.
Anyway, I bet you will have a lot of fun !
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
I'm posting a link because I posted my report on reddit.
Link to my report
I played a pretty standard rhino list, ended up going 10-5.
Oh hey this was me, lol. I just reposted this. Woops.
Have a small local Legacy event tomorrow night, got my SFM's in the mail so I think I'm going to give them a spin. My list is a bit different from the usual SFM build and I'm not 100% on my sb yet (it's currently something like 19 cards) but while I'm a pretty good theorist, actual playing experience gives better results to see why something may or may not be good.
Basically, I'm trying something low curve. The goal is to get some velocity going and use my mana on multiple cards per turn rather than something big. The SB plan likely involves some PW's, I'm going for a Rhinoless build. My goal is that slightly bigger usually beats slightly smaller so I'm aiming to be slightly bigger in G1, and then postboard when my opponent also goes bigger, I can switch to PW's and maintain the size advantage.
I don't have the exact list in front of me but it's something like this (which isn't too far off from what I mentioned the other day)
Lands 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
Artifacts 6
4 Sensei's Divning Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed
Spells 13
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
Sideboard, much more than 15
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
3 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Glissa, the Traitor
2 Surgical Extraction
It's a little lighter on removal than I would prefer, but I'm going to give it a shot. One thing I found in a few quick goldfished games was that Sakura-Tribe Elder was pretty amazing with Tireless Tracker. A free block, acceleration, and a clue puts it in the CA territory that I've been looking for with a 2 drop and with so many Trackers the interaction seems to come up a lot.
@Brael: Now that you don't need to so much mana to cast your big stuff, wouldn't you be able to trade Forest no. 3 for Phyrexian Tower no. 2?
And where's Batterskull? It's the only (good) equipment that can become a threat on an empty board (and we sure have the mana to hardcast it). Seems like it should be in the main 60. Maybe instead of the MB Vindicate?
I really love this idea of lower drops and more action per turn, it's something I realized as a nice bonus when I started to play the SFM version. Beating up Maverick over the weekend with a turn 4 Eternal Witness equipped with Jitte + SoFaI was glorious. I would echo @Echelon and want to see Batterskull still in here. Relevant against Empty the Warrens, also plays well with mana explosion from Vet as well as having a full playset of SFM in order to cheat it into play. Might not be the equipment you get first most of the time, but it is still very handy to have in making your small dudes capable of taking over the field.
If you are going with smaller, useful dudes that may die more easily...especially Arbor, Qasali, Sakura TE which are sort of -meant- to die...how about a single Meren? Having a powerful 4-drop is still keeping a pretty low curve imo.
Edit: This version also looks much more resilient to Burn than other SFM lists. Not sure how it would compare to Rhino builds.
The mana requires Forest 3. Whenever possible I like to open on Forest rather than a non basic just to ensure I don't get blown out by Wasteland. The third Forest means there's 11 ways for that to happen rather than 10.
Batterskull is in the SB, maybe it could go main but it would definitely be over a creature slot, perhaps Courser. The removal is already light enough that I wouldn't feel comfortable cutting a Vindicate.
I thought about it. I'm still not sure. I don't know what the cut would be, especially if I cut Courser for a Batterskull.
I've been on 2 Forest for a long time. Trust me, it's fine. I'm @8 green fetch (10 fetch total) & 2 basic Forest. Most games I end up fetching 3 basics before anything else. Most testing I do is vs. Grixis Delver w/ Stifles and D&T - mana denial is not an issue.
Dare to be greedy!
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