[Primer] R/G Lands

[jhport12]

Can I suggest something that I've been contemplating myself?

Take advantage of the fact that Lands has 4 Gambles. 1 Chalice and 1 Sphere may be enough to improve the Game 1 matchup (maybe one Buried Ruin for recursion?).

Chalice is good against so many decks, so replacing a Maze (or a Punishing Fire) for one might be a net positive.

[Alexeezay]

Chatto: Yes, he did. We had a lot of local players at Prague :) In case you're wondering, my deck is signed/japanese/german fbb duals. Can't wait to test tracker/thought-knot

[.Ix]

32 lands and 4 moxes? wat

35 lands gives us 99.82% chance of having a land in hand. 32 gets 99.69. I'm not sure it's going to matter too much since the chance of having mox is just 39.95%. Even if it does, having slightly worse moxes could be a fine tradeoff for a large gain in combo wins game 1 in a heavy combo meta.


Jhport12, 1 Chalice 1 Sphere should be enough in low combo metas. That's a good idea. Gives the deck a 54% chance of having at least one lock piece assuming Gamble never discards the lock piece.

This build could suck donkey balls for all I know, but I've been boarding in the Spheres in most games anyway. Might as well try it.

[Chatto]

Chatto: Yes, he did. We had a lot of local players at Prague :) In case you're wondering, my deck is signed/japanese/german fbb duals. Can't wait to test tracker/thought-knot

I think we might briefly talked after your friend fizzled, and I was able to make a Witch-token ftw. Tracker is bonkers indeed : easy to cast, cardadvantage, and a pretty fast wincon.

This build could suck donkey balls for all I know, but I've been boarding in the Spheres in most games anyway. Might as well try it.

Looking forward to your report!

[.Ix]

Pretty easy 4-0.

R1 some sort of goblin aggro deck.
2-0 Depths takes both games.

1-0 in matches

R2 Omnitell
G1 turn 1 sphere turn 3 sphere. We draw go forever and i get absolutely nothing until he has something like 9 mana. I find Depths and pass. He Shows Omniscience, casts Ancestral Knowledge, passes, and scoops.
G2 I chalice T1 and Sphere soon after. I find Marit Lage and win.

4-0 in games
2-0 in matches

R3 MUD (of course I have to play the matchup that my tech does nothing against!)
G1 land, exploration, land, go. He casts a turn 1(!) Lodestone and passes. I play another land and pass. He casts chalice on 1 and I respond with Crop Rotation for Maze. I don't remember what I play here. He has the Wasteland for my Maze swings, casts Metalworker. I find Marit Lage and win at 4 life.
G2 He plays Monolith and Trinisphere. I have Waste and Loam, so I play towards locking him out under his own sphere. It works out. He keeps making land drops and playing nothing until he runs out of land. Tabernacle kills his Golem and that's it.

6-0 games
3-0 matches

R4 UR Delver
G1 t1 Delver. I play Sphere. He misses a land drop and I have port. I play Chalice and Tabernacle. He tries to Ponder off 1mana, realizes he can't, and scoops.
G2 he gets the t1 delver, I get the t1 chalice. His entire hand is dead and he scoops after the Punishing Fire loop appears.

8-0 games
4-0 matches.

It was very smooth. I never ran into a crap Mox. Had to mulligan only 2 times, I think. I remember casting Chalice when I could have Gambled for something. I would probably play this build again locally. Had Tireless Trackers in the board. I brought them in against MUD but I didn't want to cast it.

[jhport12]

Love the report. It confirms some things I've been suspecting.

I mean, there's a reason Eldrazi pack 4 Chalice and 4 Sphere (or Thorns, rather, b/c they have creatures). They are really effective at slowly down many decks. I mean, Eldrazi has little to nothing in terms of card advantage or card selection.

If we have 4 Ports and 4 Wastelands and we want to control the game so we can combo, Chalice and Sphere both advance that cause--along with heavily hurting Combo/Miracles along the way.

I don't think I like going down to 32 land, but I also don't think I need 4 Spheres. The great thing about Game 1 is that people haven't boarded in artifact/enchantment removal. Abrupt Decays and counter-magic are largely their options.

[Alexeezay]

Hey cool, I didn't know that was you :)
See you at Prague Eternal in a few months, Chatto?

[j2los]

Anyone have any advice on sideboarding?

I have the following questions, specifically:

• What helps the Eldrazi matchup?
• What all decks are Chalice good against?
• What all decks are Tireless Tracker good against?
• What all decks (other than quick combo decks) are tax spheres good against?
• There's all sorts of great Miracles options, but what all do you take out? Or do you just run a more conservative Miracles sb?

Also, if anyone has any interest, I started this collaborative spreadsheet for sideboarding guidelines, if we as a deck community are interested in helping others learn the best practices for Lands sideboarding. It is incomplete and I am probably already wrong on quite a few things, but it's there. It's a basic stock RG list since the goal here is to learn whats are good to board in and out moreso than strict deckbuilding rules.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

[Alexeezay]

Anyone have any advice on sideboarding?

I have the following questions, specifically:

• What helps the Eldrazi matchup?
• What all decks are Chalice good against?
• What all decks are Tireless Tracker good against?
• What all decks (other than quick combo decks) are tax spheres good against?
• There's all sorts of great Miracles options, but what all do you take out? Or do you just run a more conservative Miracles sb?

- Eldrazi is a good matchup, not much help needed.
- Chalice is mainly for Storm, Miracles but also Elves or Delver.
- Tracker is good in grindy matchups/vs. midrange and control decks: Miracles, Shardless, Aggro Loam, Maverick,...
- Sphere is also good vs Show and Tell decks, Elves or Aluren. Some people like it vs Miracles.
- Personally, I take out Crop Rotations, 1-2 Punishing Fire, Manabond, Maze Of Ith, Glacial Chasm.

[j2los]

- Eldrazi is a good matchup, not much help needed.
- Chalice is mainly for Storm, Miracles but also Elves or Delver.
- Tracker is good in grindy matchups/vs. midrange and control decks: Miracles, Shardless, Aggro Loam, Maverick,...
- Sphere is also good vs Show and Tell decks, Elves or Aluren. Some people like it vs Miracles.
- Personally, I take out Crop Rotations, 1-2 Punishing Fire, Manabond, Maze Of Ith, Glacial Chasm.

Thanks, this is good info. Are you saying you don't make any sideboard changes against Eldrazi? Is that common? Typical sideboard does seem weak against them. I could see a Ghost Quarter if you're running it. Maybe Krosan Grips are ok? Do you side out PFires since they only hit a couple of their creatures? Grips seem slightly better than PFires, but I have never played the matchup.

[.Ix]

Love the report. It confirms some things I've been suspecting.

I mean, there's a reason Eldrazi pack 4 Chalice and 4 Sphere (or Thorns, rather, b/c they have creatures). They are really effective at slowly down many decks. I mean, Eldrazi has little to nothing in terms of card advantage or card selection.

If we have 4 Ports and 4 Wastelands and we want to control the game so we can combo, Chalice and Sphere both advance that cause--along with heavily hurting Combo/Miracles along the way.

I don't think I like going down to 32 land, but I also don't think I need 4 Spheres. The great thing about Game 1 is that people haven't boarded in artifact/enchantment removal. Abrupt Decays and counter-magic are largely their options.

The thing about running only 1 Sphere Game 1 is that most combo decks can just draw out of it because many of the games take a long time to close unless a quick Marit Lage shows up. I have Stormed through Thalia so many times. My Round 2 opponent could even Show and Tell through 2 Spheres. It can definitely be enough against Belcher, though.

j2los Sphere is pretty good against Delver.

[Jaytron]

Anyone have any advice on sideboarding?

I have the following questions, specifically:

• What helps the Eldrazi matchup?
• What all decks are Chalice good against?
• What all decks are Tireless Tracker good against?
• What all decks (other than quick combo decks) are tax spheres good against?
• There's all sorts of great Miracles options, but what all do you take out? Or do you just run a more conservative Miracles sb?

Also, if anyone has any interest, I started this collaborative spreadsheet for sideboarding guidelines, if we as a deck community are interested in helping others learn the best practices for Lands sideboarding. It is incomplete and I am probably already wrong on quite a few things, but it's there. It's a basic stock RG list since the goal here is to learn whats are good to board in and out moreso than strict deckbuilding rules.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

That sheet is pretty sweet. I dig it.

[Alexeezay]

Thanks, this is good info. Are you saying you don't make any sideboard changes against Eldrazi? Is that common? Typical sideboard does seem weak against them. I could see a Ghost Quarter if you're running it. Maybe Krosan Grips are ok? Do you side out PFires since they only hit a couple of their creatures? Grips seem slightly better than PFires, but I have never played the matchup.

Fire is still fine to kill Seer with double fire, Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Mimics, Endless One so that you stop their fast hands - which also works with Tabernacle: t1 Eye into 3 Mimic, your t1: play tabernacle
Personally I only cut 1 Manabond 1 Karakas for 2 Krosan Grips (Karakas is maindeck).

[Chatto]

Hey cool, I didn't know that was you :)
See you at Prague Eternal in a few months, Chatto?

I'm not sure yet, i would like to go to Eternal Weekend Paris as well... Maybe

Thanks, this is good info. Are you saying you don't make any sideboard changes against Eldrazi? Is that common? Typical sideboard does seem weak against them. I could see a Ghost Quarter if you're running it. Maybe Krosan Grips are ok? Do you side out PFires since they only hit a couple of their creatures? Grips seem slightly better than PFires, but I have never played the matchup.

I only Side in some K-Grip, and one Ancient Grudge. Most of the time I side some K-Grip in, just for the artifact-hate like Needle or CotV. Maindeck is strong as it is. I personally shave some Gamble, Thicket, and Manabond, but that's not set in stone or anything.

[Ciubulu]

Quite new to the deck but I don't think that spheres+chalice will be good md unless you already knows that the opponent is combo. If my opponent is on the play and starts with something like usea + ponder a T1 gamble for a lock piece imho is a mistake unless you already have everything in hand.


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[jhport12]

I don't think anyone is currently asserting that you main deck Chalice/Sphere exclusively to defeat the combo decks (e.g., Storm, Sneak & Show, Reanimator or Elves). They can also be effective against Miracles and Delver (Miracles being the biggest share of the meta, Delver decks not being too far behind, and both relying on a lot of 1 cc spells to function properly).

Also, I don't think anyone is recommending that we Gamble for it on Turn 1. I believe you are describing a scenario that is a questionable play (in a general sense) because of how little information you have regarding your opponent's deck, regardless of what you might choose to Gamble for.

The overarching question, I think, is whether in the current meta there is a benefit to having a main deck that can perform better against Miracles and combo (and where it is not outweighed by the negatives of replacing other cards).

[.Ix]

I don't think anyone is currently asserting that you main deck Chalice/Sphere exclusively to defeat the combo decks (e.g., Storm, Sneak & Show, Reanimator or Elves). They can also be effective against Miracles and Delver (Miracles being the biggest share of the meta, Delver decks not being too far behind, and both relying on a lot of 1 cc spells to function properly).

Also, I don't think anyone is recommending that we Gamble for it on Turn 1. I believe you are describing a scenario that is a questionable play (in a general sense) because of how little information you have regarding your opponent's deck, regardless of what you might choose to Gamble for.

The overarching question, I think, is whether in the current meta there is a benefit to having a main deck that can perform better against Miracles and combo (and where it is not outweighed by the negatives of replacing other cards).

Agree with this.

My meta is mostly Combo, so I'm pretty sure a build with Spheres and Chalice MD is better here. There are only a few decks that Sphere is bad against locally, and they still seem to be good matchups. MUD and Eldrazi are the two most obvious, then maybe the various Vial decks but those aren't too hard to beat. I'm considering going -1 Chalice +1 Thorn MD though, just because it affects Lands less than Chalice does.

[Ciubulu]

What I meant is that there are very few specific situations when I would be happy to gamble for a lock piece over an engine or the combo but as I said I'm quite new to the deck (got my tabernacle a month ago and I will attend my first tourney with it later today) and I have no experience with it outside testing with friends. At the moment my list is pretty stock, only changes from @jarvisyu (congratulation for your top8) are the 4th fetch and boseiju main (I have 3 punishing fires)


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[jhport12]

In Game 1 Turn 1 on the play, you will not know enough about your opponent's deck to do anything other than Gamble for a key card for your primary strategy. However, if you are on the draw, or it is a turn or two into the game, you may have enough information to know that a Chalice or Sphere would help you more than a combo/engine piece.

For example, if someone casts Gitaxian Probe or Top on Turn 1, that might make me think Storm and Miracles, respectively. For Storm: I want Chalice ASAP. For Miracles: if I have the combo in hand, then I want to stop Swords to Plowshares. If I don't have the combo, I may want to lock them out of Top/Ponder/Brainstorm, which makes Counterbalance far less effective for them. There may also be times where just getting a Loam in the yard or an Exploration into play is so attractive that I risk running straight into countermagic.

The more I talk about Miracles, the more I convince myself to run Boseiju in the main. Game 1 can be really tough if they get Counterbalance online or they Swords your first Marit Lage.

[Sibelius]

Few quick points

Play Worm Harvest main if you need some help vs miracles.

(in the sideboarding link posted above)
Don't take out wasteland against Elves. Gaea's Cradle answers Tabernacle so we need a way to deal with that.
Bring in Molten Vortex vs D and T
Bring in 4 kgrip in the lands mirror
You need to consider taking out Thicket more often. its good vs surgical and Clique and grindy matchups but sb cards are often better than it in many matchups
(in the sideboarding link posted above)

Sib