[Primer] R/G Lands

[Kuma]

I want to talk about Sylvan Scrying.

At GP Columbus my round two opponent had this spicy number in his RG lands deck and I kind of like it, in theory. It's not as flexible as Tolaria West, of course, but then again we do not need to play Blue for Sylvan Scrying. I like the synergy with Boseiju and I like that we don't need to sac a land for it like with Crop Rotation. Of course this is a Sorcery and that has real drawbacks.

I'm not sure if I'll get around to testing it (too much on my place) but I'm curious if anyone on the board has been using it.

That's-a me!

I've been running a Sylvan Scrying over the third Maze of Ith in Dark Lands for awhile now and I've been very happy with it. At the GP, (I finished 12-3 in 35th place) it won me three games the third Maze of Ith wouldn't have, including game two of our matchup where I topdecked it the turn after you made a 20/20 and got my Karakas. It would have won me a fourth if my Infect opponent didn't topdeck one of his two Wastelands at the last possible moment to destroy the Glacial Chasm I searched for before I could leave Thespian's Stage up to copy it. To be fair, I did have to mulligan twice because of it on account of not having enough lands to pitch to Mox Diamond. I went 1-1 in those games.

Most of the time, Maze of Ith feels like a holdover from the days before we made 20/20s. Given the speed at which we kill, we often don't need to hold back opposing creatures. It's even more rare that I've needed two Mazes to win the game, and I've never needed the third. If you're in a board situation where you need that many Maze of Iths, you're probably not winning anyway. Since we need the third Maze of Ith so rarely, the Sylvan Scrying provides a ton of flexibility--it can even be a pseudo third Maze if needed.

At least over the third Maze, I think Sylvan Scrying is a superior option.

[barcode]

That's-a me!

I've been running a Sylvan Scrying over the third Maze of Ith in Dark Lands for awhile now and I've been very happy with it. At the GP, (I finished 12-3 in 35th place) it won me three games the third Maze of Ith wouldn't have, including game two of our matchup where I topdecked it the turn after you made a 20/20 and got my Karakas. It would have won me a fourth if my Infect opponent didn't topdeck one of his two Wastelands at the last possible moment to destroy the Glacial Chasm I searched for before I could leave Thespian's Stage up to copy it. To be fair, I did have to mulligan twice because of it on account of not having enough lands to pitch to Mox Diamond. I went 1-1 in those games.

Most of the time, Maze of Ith feels like a holdover from the days before we made 20/20s. Given the speed at which we kill, we often don't need to hold back opposing creatures. It's even more rare that I've needed two Mazes to win the game, and I've never needed the third. If you're in a board situation where you need that many Maze of Iths, you're probably not winning anyway. Since we need the third Maze of Ith so rarely, the Sylvan Scrying provides a ton of flexibility--it can even be a pseudo third Maze if needed.

At least over the third Maze, I think Sylvan Scrying is a superior option.

Oooh! I'm so glad you posted! I was thoroughly destroyed in our match. :( I drew pretty poorly towards the end and got punished for not having Tranquil Thicket. Have you posted a tournament report? I imagine folks here would love to read it - I know I would.

About Sylvan Scrying: I feel similarly about the third Maze, but I've found myself wanting it back (I went down to two to test the black and white splash) in a few of the hyper aggressive matchups (like Infect, Delver and Death & Taxes). I might push the Sylvan Scrying test back to the forefront now... ;)

[jhport12]

This is a disturbing sidenote. The Miracles player I played against on Monday had this card in his sideboard (but he never drew it against me):

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=376346

It's worse than Ruination because he can use it to get basic lands for himself.

[Sengir]

Not sure what I think of sylvan scrying, more so being a sorcery. Can't say that I'd cut a Maze for it. Are people having issues finding their lands with 4 copies of most, and 4 crop rotation, and 4 gamble, along with 4 loam?

Nice report and well done!

Do you have a moment to talk about Primeval Titan and how it may help in the Sneak Attack matchup? ;-)

Thanks. I like the idea of Primeval Titan, I just can't see myself actually casting him, and gambling for him in the hopes for a show and tell seems iffy. If he were to hit the table I'm sure he would do a world of good, but getting him there...?

Why was that a stupid play? Otherwise you're leaving up a kill condition and he can likely double activate Sneak to force through Emrakul. I can see saving it for the Blood Moon in hindsight...

I was loaming away each turn, and had rishadan ports and wasteland available along with karakas, and was nearing making depths combo. Could have survived a rogue emrakul attack, blood moon however was a death knell.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Yeah, From the Ashes has been something to be aware of for a while now. It's bad news but there also isn't that much you can do to prevent getting blown out by it. Thankfully it's not very common since it's a bit narrow.

[jhport12]

Yeah, From the Ashes has been something to be aware of for a while now. It's bad news but there also isn't that much you can do to prevent getting blown out by it. Thankfully it's not very common since it's a bit narrow.

In the current meta, it is pretty good against Eldrazi and BUG/RUG decks. And it can be better than Back to Basics because it can't be Abrupt Decayed.

[barcode]

Thanks. I like the idea of Primeval Titan, I just can't see myself actually casting him, and gambling for him in the hopes for a show and tell seems iffy. If he were to hit the table I'm sure he would do a world of good, but getting him there...?

The benefit to Titan is that just having it in your hand almost blanks Show & Tell. If you play a Pithing Needle in your deck (and you should) you can force the opponent to go on the Show & Tell plan, which you win. Gambling for the Titan is no different than Gambling for a basic Forest or Krosan Grip. In other matchups, especially the mirror, Titan ends the game when it resolves.

Yeah, From the Ashes has been something to be aware of for a while now. It's bad news but there also isn't that much you can do to prevent getting blown out by it. Thankfully it's not very common since it's a bit narrow.

You can keep porting their red sources. If they catch on, however, they'll keep a fetch open... but more often than not you'll be able to keep the red sources under control. It's not a good way to win the game, mind you, but it's a way to not immediately lose and that's step one in winning.

[hyp3r1on]

In the current meta, it is pretty good against Eldrazi and BUG/RUG decks. And it can be better than Back to Basics because it can't be Abrupt Decayed.

As a longtime miracles player, From the Ashes is pretty bad. Only time I would consider playing it is if the room was literally all Lands and Cloudpost. Eldrazi decks can't really answer back to basics anyways and is 1 mana cheaper. It's also not really playable vs delver because of its mana cost and because From the Ashes can't answer the board vs BUG - I'd much rather be casting Jace.

Anyone running that card is either a) trolling, b) targeting lands players in a local meta or c) both : )

[jhport12]

I see a great deal of logic in your response in terms of why, as a Miracles player, From the Ashes wouldn't necessarily solve enough problems for you in match-ups. Thanks for sharing.

The guy playing Miracles is a good Miracles player, though. He might just be testing it, but otherwise it isn't a matter of trolling or the meta. There are never many Lands players generyally, and I myself haven't bumped into another one in the Boston area (although I'm sure they're around).

As a Miracles player, what cards are you most afraid of seeing? I play RG Lands (no Abrupt Decays), and I can bring in 13 cards post-sideboard against Miracles (2 Chalice, 4 Sphere, 2 Tireless Tracker, 1 Boil, 4 Grip)--but it doesn't necessarily seem like it gives me enough of an edge.

[hyp3r1on]

I see a great deal of logic in your response in terms of why, as a Miracles player, From the Ashes wouldn't necessarily solve enough problems for you in match-ups. Thanks for sharing.

The guy playing Miracles is a good Miracles player, though. He might just be testing it, but otherwise it isn't a matter of trolling or the meta. There are never many Lands players generyally, and I myself haven't bumped into another one in the Boston area (although I'm sure they're around).

As a Miracles player, what cards are you most afraid of seeing? I play RG Lands (no Abrupt Decays), and I can bring in 13 cards post-sideboard against Miracles (2 Chalice, 4 Sphere, 2 Tireless Tracker, 1 Boil, 4 Grip)--but it doesn't necessarily seem like it gives me enough of an edge.

It's always unnerving to play against Miracles from the Lands perspective no matter what. It's hard to measure what hate cards the Miracles player will be bringing in for the Lands matchup. Are they bringing permanent hate like back to basics or blood moon or RIPs or do you have to play around surgicals or extreme cards like Ruination/FTA? Also a lot of hate the Lands player is bringing in is situationaly good. Sometimes a Pithing needle, a chalice or choke can be an absolute blowout and sometimes they can be basically irrelevant. Value creatures like Tireless Tracker or Bob can be very unnerving for Miracles if they don't have a stp for them immediately.

For me personally, the things that scare me the most postboard in the Lands matchup from the Miracles side are probably: 1) Boseiju 2) Boil 3) A lot of Rishadan ports and stages 4) Tracker/Bob where I don't have an immediate answer for. Whenever I see Boseiju hit play I try to close out the game as fast as possible with either cliques or an entreat.

In general though from the Lands perspective I feel a lot of the time you just have to do things aggressively and hope the Miracles player doesn't have the immediate answer. Sometimes they do and you lose which is discouraging but when they don't you feel good about your decisions because you put yourself in that position to win.

[Chatto]

(...) In general though from the Lands perspective I feel a lot of the time you just have to do things aggressively and hope the Miracles player doesn't have the immediate answer. Sometimes they do and you lose which is discouraging but when they don't you feel good about your decisions because you put yourself in that position to win.

And go for their uncracked Fetchland, at least that's what I hear from friends and read on this forum. It messes up their their gameplan. It gives you information when they fetch or don't fetch.

[Kuma]

Oooh! I'm so glad you posted! I was thoroughly destroyed in our match. :( I drew pretty poorly towards the end and got punished for not having Tranquil Thicket. Have you posted a tournament report? I imagine folks here would love to read it - I know I would.

I haven't posted a report, and it has probably been to long for me to remember most of my matches in detail. I can maybe dig up my notes, talk about what I played and add what little commentary I remember.

About Sylvan Scrying: I feel similarly about the third Maze, but I've found myself wanting it back (I went down to two to test the black and white splash) in a few of the hyper aggressive matchups (like Infect, Delver and Death & Taxes). I might push the Sylvan Scrying test back to the forefront now... ;)

Maze of Ith can be risky versus Infect due to Vines of Vastwood. Using the Scrying to get Glacial Chasm is safer. Of course, Infect runs a billion counterspells so YMMV. Maze is definitely better vs, D&T, and probably Delver too (although I'd probably rather have Scrying vs. Pyromancer to act as a second Tabernacle). Everywhere else, I'd rather have Sylvan Scrying. Infect + D&T + Delver is what, 25% of the metagame?

Not sure what I think of sylvan scrying, more so being a sorcery. Can't say that I'd cut a Maze for it. Are people having issues finding their lands with 4 copies of most, and 4 crop rotation, and 4 gamble, along with 4 loam?

The question isn't "Are people having trouble finding their lands?" it's "Would I rather draw a Maze of Ith or a Sylvan Scrying?" Most of the time I'd rather have the Sylvan Scrying. Why is sorcery speed such a terrible thing? We're funning Gamble after all. Yeah, it'd be better as an instant, but I can't run a 5th Crop Rotation.

[Sengir]

The question isn't "Are people having trouble finding their lands?" it's "Would I rather draw a Maze of Ith or a Sylvan Scrying?" Most of the time I'd rather have the Sylvan Scrying. Why is sorcery speed such a terrible thing? We're funning Gamble after all. Yeah, it'd be better as an instant, but I can't run a 5th Crop Rotation.

Well to each their own but I don't see the need for a 9th tutor, though there's definitely 2 maybe 3 floating spots in a lands deck. Don't feel that maze of one of them, getting maze into play is often essential to fending off quick aggro while we stabilize and prison them out.

Anyone here messed with the white splash at all? Horizon Canopy, Karakas, Savannah Main. Opens up containment priest, aura fracture, thalia, and ethersworn... All of which would address bad matchups?

[barcode]

Anyone here messed with the white splash at all? Horizon Canopy, Karakas, Savannah Main. Opens up containment priest, aura fracture, thalia, and ethersworn... All of which would address bad matchups?

It's not worth it.

Grafdigger's Cage is better than Containment Priest. The only winner is Aura Facture, which I didn't test. Gaddock Teeg is arguably better than Canonist and it's just not good enough against the field. Plus, Horizon Canopy is worse than Tranquil Thicket. You should be playing Karakas maindeck anyways!!

[jhport12]

Nonland permanent sideboard cards can be tricky. One thing I like about Sphere and Chalice is that not only do they slow down an opponent's primary strategy, but they also can slow down/shut off an opponent's ability to remove them. And ever since Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage became our game plan I have had a hard time justifying a 3rd color, personally.

I've had Storm decks bounce my Choke end-of-turn and then just go off. Gaddock and Ethersworn can get hit the same way. And with Miracles playing Wear//Tear a lot these days, I want to avoid losing a Mox and a Choke from one fused spell. This is part of why I really like the Boil approach against blue-based decks.

I just added Tireless Tracker to my SB, but I haven't had a chance to use it yet to learn how effective it is. At least that permanent, if it resolves, can create card advantage somewhat quickly before it might die.

[Chatto]

Thalia 2.0 looks like a big pain in the ass... Thank God it is 3cmc, so that buys us a bit of time.

[Crimhead]

Hi all!

I've been loving my RUG build recently, and I'm going be be a bit rusty on R/G. However, a friend gave me a couple Nissa, Worldwakers for my birthday, so this is the perfect excuse to take RGCL for another spin!

What do people think of the walker? Two copies in this list that took first out of seventy, so it can't be terrible.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12637&d=273136&f=LE

Looks to slow for combo or Burn, and not really what we need vs most creature decks. Is this just coming in again St D&T and Miracles? In D&T they make great blockers mostly, which is pretty good I think. Vs Miracles it should put up real pressure and draw out their Swords and Termini.

Are there other good uses for Nissa? Please discuss!

[barcode]

Hi all!

I've been loving my RUG build recently, and I'm going be be a bit rusty on R/G. However, a friend gave me a couple Nissa, Worldwakers for my birthday, so this is the perfect excuse to take RGCL for another spin!

What do people think of the walker? Two copies in this list that took first out of seventy, so it can't be terrible.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12637&d=273136&f=LE

Looks to slow for combo or Burn, and not really what we need vs most creature decks. Is this just coming in again St D&T and Miracles? In D&T they make great blockers mostly, which is pretty good I think. Vs Miracles it should put up real pressure and draw out their Swords and Termini.

Are there other good uses for Nissa? Please discuss!

I can't imagine how that Nissa helps. Is it just a bad Koth?

[Claymore]

If you want a walker exclusively for Miracles and/or DnT, play Chandra Flamecaller.

[Crimhead]

If you want a walker exclusively for Miracles and/or DnT, play Chandra Flamecaller.

You're not getting it.

I don't have a need that I'm looking for Nissa to fill. Rather the other way around - I have Nissas and I'm looking for the need!

Takisaka Toru had two in the board when he took first out of seventy players. I'm sure he a reason for them, but I'm not entirely sure what that reason is!