[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Curby]

The sophistication of the discussion is on par with this one, at least.

While Finn was probably referring to the level of the deck discussion and I agree with him, I must add that part of true sophistication/competitiveness/superiority involves not having to point out how sophisticated/competitive/superior you are. The contrapositive is also true.

[DemonicDust]

New to this forum...but had to share,made the first top 8 today at Dallas SCG Legacy Classic..

Great Day today.....3rd place out of 210 players...picked up recruiters and magi yesterday...so tried the Imperial build..and ...yeah!!!!8 rounds...6-0-2....4th place going into top eight...only loss was against....D&T in the semis..



Imperial Taxes
Mark Church
3rd Place at StarCityGames.com Classic on 6/26/2016
Legacy


Creatures (28)

1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
2 Imperial Recruiter
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Restoration Angel
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Lands (22)

3 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
2 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
Spells (11)

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
2 Sudden Demise

[iatee]

Congrats Demonic, would love to have a tournament report if you get time later. How did you like Resto/Ethersworn main?

[DemonicDust]

One opponent played a fetch turn one...and then probed...I had played a plains...he saw canonist and thalia...and scooped,after the match he said he was thrown by the main deck canonist and could not figure out why I played it main,I told him for exactly that reason...luckily I put him on storm and sided in the other 3 canonists......and Resto,(which is card number 61...GASP...I know...60...60!!!!)I have always loved surprising people with her,such a great beatstick and delver trap.

[suprnaturall]

Hello everyone,

I'm a fresh D&T player (mono W version) and I still don't understand why (since we didn't play MD nor in the SD aven mindcensor) we don't play something like 4 or 5 fetchs in order to thin up the deck.

Any advice ?

Many thanks

[Stevestamopz]

Hello everyone,

I'm a fresh D&T player (mono W version) and I still don't understand why (since we didn't play MD nor in the SD aven mindcensor) we don't play something like 4 or 5 fetchs in order to thin up the deck.

Any advice ?

Many thanks

- opens you up to stifle
- you take damage for no reason
- "deck thinning" doesn't really work as you think it does.

[suprnaturall]

Hello Steve,

Thanks for your reply, actually I'm quite aware of stifle but I've never think of % of deck thinning vs the dammage taken.

On the other hand if I posted the question it was because they are many mono color deck (like burn) who used fetch only for the deck thinning purpose.

Anyway your link to mtgSalvation is very interesting, many thanks!

[Bahra]

Hello Steve,

Thanks for your reply, actually I'm quite aware of stifle but I've never think of % of deck thinning vs the dammage taken.

On the other hand if I posted the question it was because they are many mono color deck (like burn) who used fetch only for the deck thinning purpose.

Anyway your link to mtgSalvation is very interesting, many thanks!

That is just not true. The burn decks that play fetches play grim lavamancer or barbarian ring. No one NO ONE in their right mind plays fetches for the sole purpose of thinning. What other decks plays fetches just for thinning? Since you say there are "many decks" that do this.

[suprnaturall]

Hello Bahra,

Thanks for your reply.

You'r right, I shouldn't have said "many color deck use fetch for deck thinning".
Actually there is not a lot of mono color deck in legacy :

• merfolk - do not use fetch
• pox - do not use fetch
• high tide - use fetch (ok it's a brainstorm deck)
• goblin - do not use fetch
• burn - use fetch

I also found this very interesting reddit post with some usefull graph : https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/co..._deckthinning/

Conclusion : do not use fetchs for only deck thinning purpose ? Am I right ?

[MasterBlaster]

Conclusion : do not use fetchs for only deck thinning purpose ? Am I right ?

Pretty much. I remember someone in a thread years ago crunched the numbers. X points of life is a little more important than making your deck X cards skinnier.

If you need a fetch to fix mana or to shuffle crap away after a Brainstorm than that is different.

[iatee]

So I've been thinking about Pyrokinesis for the Imperial SB. It's a little more versatile than Sudden Demise and faster, and I think we could find a way to play up to 14 or 15 red cards post-board, which makes it roughly as safe as Sudden Demise is with ~7 red sources.

Pyrokinesis board would look something like:

not-red: 7
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn
1 Relic Warder
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
red: 8
1 Pia/Kiran
1 Magus
1 Manic Vandal
1 Cunning Sparkmage
4 Pyrokinesis

With 3 Recruiter / 3 Magus or 4 Recruiter / 2 Magus main that makes 14 red cards, which gives you an 80% chance of having two in your opening hand if you just dropped the whole red package in.

Obviously very good against Elves + Infect + the mirror, not bad vs Grixis Delver, kinda okay vs other DRS+Delver decks. Vs Eldrazi kills TKS and random small Eldrazi crap, though you'd really be wrecking your hand vs a TKS. Good vs all other random creature decks.

It seems like there's a way to fit it in if we really wanted to make it work, the question is whether it's worth warping your SB like that.

[Barook]

A legendary mini Baneslayer - kinda sucks that she still dies to Bolt. Thoughts on it?

[iatee]

I think it's pretty clearly playable for the Mono-W sb. BUG decks just can't kill it, it's a Karakas-able bomb vs Miracles. Good vs Eldrazi. You probably don't bring it in vs Bolt decks, but who cares if it's so strong against everything else?



I think Hanweir Garrison is potentially playable for Imperial, as a tutorable Hero of Bladehold. The meld stuff doesn't matter, maybe some other deck could actually use it though.



SB potential, good vs TNN, Burn, Eldrazi?

With these plus Thalia 2.0, seems like there will be a lot of new toys with this set. They've barely spoiled anything and I see 4 potentially playables already.

[redtwister]

@nevilshute
Good job! Do you have a deck list from Prague?

@iatee
If the mainboard of WW is "solved" as you say (though the flex slots fluctuate heavily around the meta as new tech comes in and goes out, e.g. Spirit of the Labyrinth, Brimaz, King of Oreskos, new Thalia, Vryn Wingmare), the sideboard has plenty of room for innovation with Gideon and the new cards you pointed out. Whatever build you are playing, DnT is much more exciting than say Delver.dec or Storm or Jund or Lands.

Wow, yeah, Hanweir Garrison. you are right, that is pretty exciting value right there. If they can't kill it, it will take over the board. I do wish it was Legendary, but on the other hand, it is 3 mana and only 2R, not 1RR, so it looks like a very solid 3 drop.

@everyone
I said it on MTGSalvation, and I will say it here:
Why aren't we a little more excited with 3 DnT decks in a Top 8? Sure, it's not a GP or an Open, but it's still quite a thing. No one expects that from DnT. I stopped watching coverage early yesterday and woke up to DnT Domination. Boo-ya!

Plus, NevilShute on TheSource went 6-0 on a side event at GP Prague with a build somewhat like the Arbiter build from BMO Japan a couple years ago.

More importantly, all four of these builds show how hard it might be now to build a sideboard against DnT because each one has some novel aspects (Imperial is less susceptible to anti-W effects like Dread of Night, can fetch answers, and attacks decks like Elves with a mana efficient sweeper; Arbiter attacks fetching very aggressively and has, in effect, 8 Wasteland; WW has it's usual array of tricks and is the more successfully aggressive build with a suite of Serra Avengers, Mirran Crusaders and Brimaz, King of Oreskos; The Displacer build can abuse flicker effects, resetting Revokers, avoiding spot removal, stopping attackers and removing blockers, etc.) And with sideboard innovations like Gideon, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Sword of War and Peace, Faerie Macabre, and the like, the deck is not easy to simply beat by being faster or more controlling.

Also, did anyone find it odd that the Displacer build didn't run any Containment Priest?

With how well players are doing and how engaged and innovative DnT players are, I feel like this is one of the most exciting decks to play and by far the best community of players to be in (regardless of the forum.)

[Marungo]

I'm certainly excited DnT did that well. I agree that it's not an open or a GP but it's still exciting to see a deck we all like and play so much so that well.

The one really important thing to note with this though is the many different ways that you can go with DnT and find success. There was a more classic build that the majority runs that won the tournament, an imperial build with some strange choices top 4'ing, and a displacer build that sees less play but had put up quite a few results lately and gets the advantage of running a few factories.

The important thing to note is that this highlights how important being skilled with the deck is moreso than the specific build that we should play. It's clear you can succeed with different builds but being able to play the deck optimally is most important. I do worry more that people will just randomly take these ideas and toss them into their deck without testing or thinking of reasons why the cards were added. Most people should not play restoration angel or 61 cards just because it succeeded (and 22 lands too?!). The player who played it was obviously skilled at playing DnT but the result alone I hope does not influence people too much. The main point; be willing to test these things and embrace the different ways you can take DnT but don't take these results as the end all be all on how the deck or that version of the deck should be built.

[AsmodeusDM]

re: pyrokinesis
Also card disadvantage is pretty rough in D&T....

[iatee]

It's rarely card disadvantage if you're doing it right. I think the math still doesn't add up though when it comes to red-card-count and I don't think wrecking the SB is worth beating Elves. But I think it's kinda close to being playable.

[DemonicDust]

Most people should not play restoration angel or 61 cards just because it succeeded (and 22 lands too?!). The player who played it was obviously skilled at playing DnT but the result alone I hope does not influence people too much. The main point; be willing to test these things and embrace the different ways you can take DnT but don't take these results as the end all be all on how the deck or that version of the deck should be built.

I am that player who played 61 cards and 22 lands....I have done the Resto 61st for a couple years now and have had quite a bit of practice with it...so I agree...don't just follow blindly...learn the deck before trying off the beaten track things,it works for me,but may not work for others.Also,the 22 lands was never an issue except the last game of the semi finals(yeah,the most important one)...so I feel the number works...for me anyhow.I will admit that although I played well,there were some lucky breaks during the day...like the miracles player never drawing white in game 3 round 8 which allowed me to get into top 8.I will say this,I don't expect to top 8 every tourney I play now because this happened...but it gives me more confidence that it CAN happen. PS...There is a great feeling when you tick vial to 4 and your opponent is visibly puzzled,then you ambush the delver coming at you for what they think is a win.

[saberoca]

I'm interested in what the forum thinks about the Burn matchup. Here are my thoughts and I'm curious what you think.

Overall, your role is generally to create some disruption (not as much as against ANT but still some) and to race your opponent. You can end the game with one Mirran Crusader hit with SoFI and a resolved Batterskull or active Jitte pretty much tie it up.

Your best cards are generally your equipment and Mom.

Your worst cards are SotL since Burn has no card draw.

Sideboard cards are your obvious anti-red hate like Absolute Law or CoP and also Council's Judgment for Sulfuric Vortex and/or Ensnaring Bridge.

I am okay siding out 1 Revoker if you run 4 but no more since I want to draw it to shut down Lavamancer.

Disenchant effects can also be strong since they hit Eidolon, Bridge, and Vortex.

Typically, the burn player will side out some number of Goblin Guides and Monastery Swiftspears since they do not match up well against many D&T creatures and lack evasion. They will likely bring in Vortex, Bridge, Smash to Smithereens, and Searing Blaze. Watch out for the Smash in response to equipping. While they generally lack sweepers, Disorder is a card and is a beating if it makes an appearence.

In terms of a mana denial plan, Wasteland is essentially a dead card against the burn player. You can use Rishadan Port and Thalia to limit the number of spells they can cast but ultimately their spells are so inexpensive that this plan seems unlikely to succeed in the long run.

What would you add to these thoughts? What do you disagree with? What do you agree with? If there are already posts I should read for this matchup, please let me know.

[from Cairo]

A legendary mini Baneslayer - kinda sucks that she still dies to Bolt. Thoughts on it?

I could be wrong, but on paper I like Resto Angel better. Resto matches up better against Bolt and feel like Flash is strong versus Shardless... guess this new angel is maybe better against Eldrazi due to First strike and 4 power and being Legendary might be enough upside to be prefered versus Miracles. I don't want to be ticking Vial to 4 in most cases anyway.