The logic behind that is most likely Abrupt Decay.Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard
I wouldn't windmill slam the EE there, your opponent might find a CB which you'll need it for.
Counterbalance vs Aggro Loam depends on how many 3 drops you have in the 60 post board I think as that's where their most threatening cards are on the curve (Knight, Lili, GSZ for 2), but I'd lean towards cutting all of them unless you have more than usual. Since they don't run any one drops You're relying on the higher end of your curve, and these are the cards you want to be drawing not floating.
I don't agree with keeping 2 CB at all. You either keep the the full set and stretch their decays, or cut all of them. I lean to the latter for the reasons above, their curve doesn't match ours. You're not going to win with Snapcasters in the MU and you should be able to land a mentor and protect it against fire with a spell, or just spew some tokens and tempo them. The best approach to the matchup I've found is to play control until the midgame then vomit with Mentor and use counters very aggressively to finish them in a couple of turns.
I don't agree with cutting Terminus either, if they establish a CotV on 1 a Knight or Bob can run away with the game, you need all the removal you can get. We don't need to be the aggressors, Miracles has a stronger late game as long as we keep Punishing Fire in check and CotV off the table.
I'd bring in the Venser from your SB, it's good vs Liliana and lots of lists are playing the Depths combo now too. It's just a very versatile card in the MU.
Is this true? I made a call a year ago about 4x Ponder lists being the precursor to another archetype with Mentors instead of miracles. It would be interesting to see that actually develop.
Yes this is true. Wilson top 8d, Phillip did well, and I top 8d the super Sunday series. Our collective record was very very good.
I'm not doubting the Mentor Miracles' strength. However, when interpreting results, how many people sleeve up Mentor Miracles and still did horrible with it? You don't get to see that in the results. As in, Mentor Miracles is Not a shortcut to Legacy success. Bad Miracles players are just bad no matter which version he/she plays.
This is why result-orientated interpretation of decks can be dangerous.
I have a question for the people playing 2 predict lists at 20 land. Do you have any trouble with mulligans with your current set up? I've been running a list similar to tholance list from Prague except with 4 cb instead of 3 Counterspell for some number of months now to limited success due to mulligans. For some reason, I can't get the right mix of appropriate business spells and lands which leads to me keeping 50/50 hands as opposed to mulliganing to try to get a better hand. I promptly get smashed shortly after while spending time trying to cantrip into a better hand.
People are getting results with a similar list so I think the problem is more on my approach as a pilot as opposed to my 75.
Why so serious?
Hi everyone, I am new to the source but not so new to legacy. I have played competitively on and off for about ten years. I am a longtime blue white control player and with my return to legacy I have been piloting miracles. I am curious about the communities opinions regarding each variation of the deck. I personally like the interactions and power level of the legends build, however people tell me predict miracles is more consistent and possibly easier to pilot. Then again I feel the legends build is more versatile. Any opinions and advice are welcome I am always interested in looking at lists and viewing streams, thanks!
Predict Miracles is easier to pilot, no contest. I'm not sure about your definition of consistency, as in consistency in making land drops?
Legend build adds a layer of complexity to Miracles because it stresses board positions, complicates opening hand keeping, and the lands are ridiculously bizarre (restriction on White Mana source) at times. For example, your lines of play might be drastically different if you're only missing Kakaras and/or Cavern, since you have Venser in your hand, hoping it can deal with opponent's CB-T. As a result, you tend to pick up more draws because the durdling nature in plays such as the dance of legendary creatures (Clique-blocks-bounce with Karakas), as well as the regular SDT spinning from all builds.
My personal preference: Predict Miracles has a ceiling that's too low. Legend Miracles is unnecessarily durdling and the "cool" blow-outs on stream are slightly over-rated. Sure, I can take Predict Miracles, cut a Blue cantrip to add a Karakas, that's where I would compromise. The bottom line: under-rate Karakas at your own risk.
I was looking at this image that @Minniehajj posted previously in page 516 that contains some boarding plans from a previous Predictable miracles list from @AnziD and some questions popped out in my head.
vs. Burn 6
out
2 Jace
2 Predict
2 Terminus
In
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
2 Wear/Tear
Isn't it risky to board out 2 Terminus vs, Burn? sometimes they flood the board with 2 or 3 creature or a creature and Eidolon and in that spot aren't we in a bad shape with only 2x Terminus?
Why is it wrong to cut Mentors?
vs. Infect 11
out
2 Jace
2 Mentor
3 CB
4 FoW
In
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
3 Wear/Tear
2 Reb
1 Snapcaster Mage
Isn't Counterspell in this matchup particularly mana intensive? isn't it better to keep Counterbalance and cut Counterspells or Keep in at least some FoWs for his exploding starts?
vs. Mirror 10
out
1 Jace
2 Mentor
2 Terminus
4 StP
1 Plains
In
1 Snapcaster mage
3 Flusterstorm
4 Pyroblast
1 Predict
1 Vendilion Clique
Why do we cut Monastery mentor in the mirror match post board? isn't it a trump to an eventual opposing Counterbalance? especially when almost all the removal spells gets cut from our opponent? hwy do we keep 2 Terminus in?
vs. Mud 5
out
3 CB
2 Terminus
In
1 Snapcaster mage
3 Wear/Tear
1 Vendilion Clique
Isn't risky to cut down 2 Terminus vs. a Chalice deck? Terminus could be a random answer to our opponent opposing board under CotV at 1 buying us some tempo.
vs. Elves 4
out
2 Mentor
2 Jace
In
1 Snapcaster mage
2 Wear/Tear
2 Vendilion Clique
Isn't Mentor a good Card vs. Elves? are we supposed to kill him with only Snapcasters (which trade with every creature he has) and 2x Vendilion Clique?
vs. RUG Delver 7
out
3 CB
4 Force of Will
In
1 Snapcaster mage
1 Wear/Tear
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
1 Predict
Isn't in this boarding plan Better to keep in our CBs and cout down on Jaces or COunterspells? both are really manintensive vs. a deck with Reb Dazes and Pierces, even if they usually board out some Daze they have Wasteland and Stifles, and Mongeese to press Jace. Is the plan here to just grind them out?
Thanks in advance for your answers guys!
So keep in mind that these were all fluid things and I think I went back and edited a lot of this but didn't publish it, so sorry for the confusion. These aren't HARD rules, sideboarding changes based on factors and opponents of course, but they are simple guidelines to follow.
Another thing to note is that we will capitalize on the concept of "end-step" magic with this list, and the thinking is that we never want to tap sorcery speed in almost any matchup post board.
WE HAVE SINCE CHANGED THIS PHILOSOPHY and now our testing centers around maximizing the power of the ridiculous card known as Monastery Mentor.
You board out Terminus because you don't want to be overloaded on them you have tons of answers for their creatures. You keep in Mentors because they actually interact favorably vs their creatures and easily allow you to race a vorte that you no longer have an answer for.vs. Burn 6
out
2 Jace
2 Predict
2 Terminus
In
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
2 Wear/Tear
Isn't it risky to board out 2 Terminus vs, Burn? sometimes they flood the board with 2 or 3 creature or a creature and Eidolon and in that spot aren't we in a bad shape with only 2x Terminus?
Why is it wrong to cut Mentors?
So this idea is kind of a different school of thought that was inspired by our discussion with BBD on how he boarded vs Tom Ross for many years. We essentially cut down on cards that have a high chance of having us die with not being able to cast them, like CB, and maximize on cards that serve as removal and ways for us to not die. We flex CS's power late game, and we don't wanna to go down on cards against Infect at all, since it plays into a lot of their game plan. With this iteration, we have 20~ some removal spells post board, and they have 12 creatures at most. We just lean on the power of Predict to carry us late into the game. This increases our likelihood of them "nut drawing" us, so to speak, but we view CS as a better late game card than CB vs Infect since they can then bring in Krosan Grip.vs. Infect 11
out
2 Jace
2 Mentor
3 CB
4 FoW
In
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
3 Wear/Tear
2 Reb
1 Snapcaster Mage
Isn't Counterspell in this matchup particularly mana intensive? isn't it better to keep Counterbalance and cut Counterspells or Keep in at least some FoWs for his exploding starts?
Okay so the mirror is the one we had the longest discussion on and we decided that we would rather play the flash game entirely. Our post board config had the highest amount of interactive spells than any other mirror variant, and we decided that we simply never wanted to tap 3 mana sorcery speed literally ever. So we decided that we would leave in 2 Terminus to hedge vs opposing mentors and just ride the concept of "end step" magic to victory. Testing results were EXCELLENT. However, we've since re-evaluated this plan and we just vary things back and forth now. Sometimes we'll cut mentors, sometimes we'll keep in plows instead of terminus, etc. Just all depends on how your opponent plays the mirror and what you see.vs. Mirror 10
out
1 Jace
2 Mentor
2 Terminus
4 StP
1 Plains
In
1 Snapcaster mage
3 Flusterstorm
4 Pyroblast
1 Predict
1 Vendilion Clique
Why do we cut Monastery mentor in the mirror match post board? isn't it a trump to an eventual opposing Counterbalance? especially when almost all the removal spells gets cut from our opponent? hwy do we keep 2 Terminus in?
So while Terminus is nice and all, that's not really what the plan is about. If we live long enough to beat a chalice, we can leverage the rest of our deck. Our counterspells become live, etc.vs. Mud 5
out
3 CB
2 Terminus
In
1 Snapcaster mage
3 Wear/Tear
1 Vendilion Clique
Isn't risky to cut down 2 Terminus vs. a Chalice deck? Terminus could be a random answer to our opponent opposing board under CotV at 1 buying us some tempo.
This one is another point of contention we had overall, since we weren't positive which elves build would be the best for the GP Weekend, Chaos or NO, so we decided that the best way to do this was play "end-step" magic once again. We never needed Mentor to close out the game and yes, we are only suipposed to kill him with Snapcasters and Cliques. Ideally, he simply doesn't have any relevant creatures. We have since re-evaluated this plan and now have a game plan that has us remove some number of counterspells and leave in Mentors instead, since our testing these days centralizes around maximizing the power of Monastery Mentor.vs. Elves 4
out
2 Mentor
2 Jace
In
1 Snapcaster mage
2 Wear/Tear
2 Vendilion Clique
Isn't Mentor a good Card vs. Elves? are we supposed to kill him with only Snapcasters (which trade with every creature he has) and 2x Vendilion Clique?
This was just a mistake, we board out Counterspells, not Counterbalances.vs. RUG Delver 7
out
3 CB
4 Force of Will
In
1 Snapcaster mage
1 Wear/Tear
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
1 Predict
Isn't in this boarding plan Better to keep in our CBs and cout down on Jaces or COunterspells? both are really manintensive vs. a deck with Reb Dazes and Pierces, even if they usually board out some Daze they have Wasteland and Stifles, and Mongeese to press Jace. Is the plan here to just grind them out?
Hope this helps!
No issues with Mulligans, really. None outside of the normal. You have to prioritize plays a bit differently when playing this style of deck, especially if you're coming from classic 4Ponder. You have less powerful cards in your deck, and you can't play like you are playing 4Ponder. For example, you can't play like if you have 3 Jaces, you can't play like you have 2 Entreats, when that simply isn't the case. In most scenarios, actually, you just have a MUCH lower mana curve and can operate in most cases with a lower land count because you are far more efficient than most other variants.
@Cipher
Mentor allows you to win quickly. Running main deck mentor really cut down on unintentional draws and MTGO time outs.
@CutthroatCasual
I think you are overboarding for the Agro loam match up.
With 2 mentor main I board.
OUT: 1 Terminus, 1 Counterbalance, 1 Force of Will
IN: 2 Wear // Tear, 1 Surgical Extraction
You still need some number of Forces to stop Chalice on 1 early if you do not have a Wear/Tear. Counterbalance is still good versus Life from Loam if they do not have the Abrupt Decay.
Would not board in Rest in Peace since it is not a total blow out and nerfs your Snapcasters.
@twndomn
What Miracles list really depends on what you expect to face. A Ponder Mentor build is better in a general meta but the Legends build is better if you know you are going to be playing many miracles mirrors like on MTGO.
@Minniehajj
Thank you for the write up on Predict miracles and boarding.
Versus Burn
I still want Terminus. You want to answer their creatures fast before you take too much damage. Council's Judgement and a land get the axe. You want Mentor to kill them quickly.
I actually board out a land in many of the match ups where you are boarding out Jace and they are not attacking your mana like Burn, Infect, Elves etc.
Versus Mud
Terminus is not what it used to be. Warping Wail can counter your Terminus so you have to watch their untaped mana. I am actually considering going back to the 3 Terminus 1 Supreme Verdict. Moat is really awesome against both Mud and Eldrazi.
Yes and no, the creature based draws are fewer and more fat between than you realize and terminus is still a clunky draw at the end of the day. As far as boarding out a land is concerned, we decided against doing that in a 20L build because each mana becomes super important in most matchups. Plains still has its usefulness in top spinning in the mirror ;).
Ok really thank you, in effect as you say predict gives the deck a new dimension making it hard to play, can trip sequencing and top planning becomes much harder especially when you have predict in hand, it would be nice to have an article on how to sequence the cantrips in predict miracles with Snapcaster synergies, but I guess the situation are so wide that everyone request a single evaluation, thanks for the infos
It definitely changes how you utilize your cantrips. I might get around to posting a few tips and tricks regarding Predict, (such as fetching, holding priority, then casting predict in the face of a wasteland) when I have some free time, but it definitely changes how you sequence your cantrips and your fetch lands. If your have 2 fetches in play, a Brainstorm, and a Predict in hand, and you want to get value off of Predict with some of the bad cards in your hand, you actually have to fetch twice BEFORE casting Brainstorm, which isn't the most intuitive thing in the world. You'll also find yourself Brainstorming endstep turn one MUCH more often when you have Predict in your deck. But sometimes, these suboptimal plays are correct and allow you to maximize the power of your deck full of cantrips.
how useful is it to fateseal your opponent with jace and predict to mill their top card?
Totally depends on the matchup and gamestate, this is impossible to answer in the dark.
Usually incorrect. The advantage of fateseal is that you know the card; With predict you don't.
Unless you have everything, you can usually ditch something yourself. You have an active Jace.
In the same vein, how many people here have successfully milled an opponent's top in the mirror?
@Minniehajj - I really would like to learn about some sequencing you prefer for the predict miracles deck. Often times I want to cast predict but don't have anything that I want to mill (because I need to make land drops) or don't know which card to mill. I'd also like to know when you prefer to cast a mentor. I have been playing the 4 mentor list by the brainstorm show and I often run one out on T3 open board because I feel I can play another later. Do you think this is a bad plan?
mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn
Well, it takes some guts to fateseal, see something you really don't want them to have, and then leave it on top in order to Predict it away. I mean, if the Predict is countered, you look pretty stupid. There will, of course, be situations where you can be pretty sure it won't get countered.
In Prague I messed up an opposing Enlightened Tutor with Predict which felt good. :)
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