Thanks Shaboogs!Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
I normally don't take notes during my games as I feel it would add an additional layer of distraction when there is already a lot going on. On a smaller scale I feel I don't want to have divided attention in the case that my opponent is trying to get one over on me (not that I think all magic players are out to cheat me, but I'm of the belief that you want to protect yourself). For these reasons I'm all the more impressed when I read a Bryant Cook tournament report as the situations are very specific giving the reader bigger insight into his lines. Perhaps at my next tournament I'll try to jot down some concrete notes and type something up of substance. I'll see how this affects my focus during a match overall when deciding whether its worth it.
Happy Dredging!
I had the most amazing Dredges of my life on Saturday. I combo'd out turn one THREE times in a 4 round local.
List:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Lotus Petal
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grande Cenobite
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
Sideboard was really bad. I couldn't find my Leylines of the Void in the bin for some reason.
R1) Mentor Miracles (2-0 on the draw)
G1: He starts with Flooded Strand, go. I have a good hand with double dredger, Breakthrough, Therapy, Gemstone and something else. I DDD for my turn, he pops fetch for Tundra, Brainstorms EOT. He untaps and plays Island -> Counterbalance. I dredge for the turn, giving me 1 Narcomoeba and 1 more dredger in the yard. I cast Breakthrough for X=0, he reveals JTMS with Counterbalance trigger. Coast is clear, I rip his hand apart with multiple Therapies, make 6 Zombies + 2 Ichorids on standby and he concedes.
+2 Lotus Petal, +1 Dread Return, +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria, +3 Abrupt Decay, -4 Lion's Eye Diamond, -3 Breakthrough
G2: He starts with Plains -> Top. I start with Mana Confluence -> PImp, which meets Force of Will. He spins top in his upkeep, probably trying to find a land. He finds it and plays Polluted Delta. I play Cephalid Coliseum, cast Faithless Looting off Confluence, resolves. I bin a GGT and a Bridge. Cast Careful Study, resolves. I Dredge a bunch, 1 Narco up, 2 Bridges, 1 Ichorid in the yard, but no Therapies. I ship the turn praying for the love of Odin that he doesn't Terminus me. He tries to find some kind of answer for my Narcomoebas, but fails. He plays Monastery Mentor and passes. I recover my Ichorid, dredge a Stinkweed Imp into my Iona and Dread Return. Dread Return resolves, I bring back Iona naming white and he concedes.
R2) Monoblack Pox (2-1 on the play)
G1: I start with Careful Study, bin 2 dredgers. He starts with Thoughtseize, taking my Breakthrough. I dredge some goodies, play Cephalid Coliseum and activate it, putting 20+ cards in my yard, making 4 zombies and using Therapy twice, 1st on Pox and 2nd on Ensnaring Bridge. He can't do anything but casting Smallpox or Liliana, and that's nowhere near what he needs to be doing. After some three turns beating, Ichorid comes up and seals the deal.
+3 Chain of Vapor, +1 Dread Return, +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria, -1 Ichorid, -1 Golgari Thug, -3 Breakthrough
G2: He starts with double Leyline of the Void, and I concede.
G3: He mulls to 3, plays the Leyline of the Void, but I have Chain of Vapor in my hand. He concedes as soon as I bounce it, as he doesn't make a land drop, nor draws a land.
R3) Death and Taxes (2-0 on the play)
G1: I keep the following hand: Gemstone Mine, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, Fatihless Looting, Golgari Grave-Troll, Stinkweed Imp. Guess what happened?
(I board nothing, I don't know if he plays RIP or something else)
G2: I mulligan and keep another nut hand: Mana Confluence, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ichorid, Golgari Grave-Troll, Faithless Looting, Therapy. He starts with Vial, I topdeck another Lion's Eye Diamond. I dredge 20+ cards in my first turn and he concedes (with a very angry mood) after I put 9 tokens on the field +1 Ichorid on standby.
R4) Monored Burn (2-1 on the draw)
G1: He starts with Goblin Guide, and I take 2 revealing an Ichorid. I play Mana Confluence for Careful Study, bin GGT and Ichorid. He follows up with 2 more Goblin Guides, leaving me at 11 on turn 2. I dredge for the turn, finding Narcomoeba and Bridge. I play another Careful Study, which finds me more Ichorids and dredgers, but no Therapy. He attacks me with triple Guide, I block one, take 4 (going to 6 life) and make a Zombie. In his 2nd main phase, he plays Lava Spike and finishes with Fireblast.
+1 Dread Return, +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria, -1 Ichorid, -1 Careful Study
G2: I start with PImp, he starts suspending Rift Bolt. I discard Thug, dredging more dredgers. I discard Thug again and cast Breakthrough. I dredge for 30+ cards, finding 1 Narcomoeba, 2 Bridges, 1 Dread Return, 1 Therapy and Iona. I therapy for Ensnaring Bridge, he doesn't have it. I play Dread Return for red and he concedes.
G3: He starts with Monastery Swiftspear, hit me for 1. My hand is: Gemstone Mine, Gemstone Mine, Lion's Eye Diamond, Careful Study, GGT, Ichorid, Bridge. I play Gemestone into LED, cast Careful Study, break LED in response. Dredge 12 cards (finding another GGT), and a Faithless Looting, which I flashback for another 12 cards. I can't hit narcomoebas, but I have 2 Ichorids with food and Dread Return + Iona for next turn. He plays Eidolon of Great Revel for his turn, I untap drege into Narcomoeba and return Iona for red again. He concedes.
Lucky me, right? I didn't face Deathrite Shaman, was able to dodge like a champ, since there were 2 Shardless BUGs playing. Dredges were awesome, maindeck felt really strong, I only mulligan once.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
No worries on the report, Que. I also don't take notes in tournaments for the same reasons. Whenever I try to make a tournament report I usually just try to remember what happened as I type them up lol. I don't know how he does it, but Bryant Cook's reports are always a fun read as it contains very detailed information.
Congrats on the finish, Vandalize. I may be wrong, but I think your main deck is missing 1 card.
Would running an LEDless list in the current meta be any good? Or would it be best just to go manaless?
I prefer the LEDless out of the two, due to the more variety in the sideboard to tweak against certain matchups.
Any tips will be a big help
I started taking notes a little while ago, mainly just so I could make a note of what cards I saw in their hand after an Unmask/Therapy etc.
Either will be fun. I've run both for years. I'm a LED player these days, as the deck (for me) is more fun, and more competitive.
If I was you, I'd go for the option closer to where you want to be in the end. Are you ever going to buy LED's?
If not, Manaless might be the better option, as Manaless is a much more consistent deck IME, owing to a higher threat density.
Manaless also doesn't care about interactive cards like Counter/permission & taxing effects, as the deck is aimed towards being hard to interact with.
If your meta is light-on for gravehate, namely DRS, Cage and RiP, Manaless should be able to post some good competitive finishes.
LED-less will likely be quicker than manaless however, so there is definitely that.
If I was going to run LED-less, I would personally go for something close to a Quadlazer list, sub out the LED's and swap them for Tireless Tribe & Street Wraith, depending on your numbers of Putrid Imp.
Good Luck
I wouldn't recommend manaless because it's pretty easy to blanket-hate the deck, but I think it might have a stronger matchup against Chalices than either of the mana-dredge builds.
With that having been said, I think you'll be happier if you aim for the LED list eventually, subbing in something like discard outlets, more recursive creatures, or other fast mana for the time being.
LED makes a huge difference. If you don't want to track them down, that's fine, but I don't think there's anything close to a 1-for-1 replacement for them. You'll be losing out on speed if you don't run it, so finding a way to increase your consistency is probably your main priority.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
I disagree with this. Miracles and Grixis have a much better LED Dredge match-up than its Manaless counterpart. Graveyard hate is really at an all-time low because decks are adapting to combat the more prevalent strategies in the format. I was able to shred through Miracles, Grixis and Shardless with Manaless at EE4 in large part because of the high density of dangerous cards, threats and level of non-interactivity with the opponent. I played the blue variant with Force and Shoal (including Amalgams), and it was spectacular all day.
I'm not saying LED Dredge isn't playable, because it obviously is. I just don't think it's a better meta choice for a large tournament right now than Manaless.
If I were to play LEDless, I'd go for something like this:
Lands [12]
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Cephalid Coliseum
Creatures [22]
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Putrid Imp
1 Griselbrand
Spells [26]
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Lotus Petal
2 Dread Return
Sideboard [15]
3 Chain of Vapor/Nature's Claim
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Firestorm
2 City of Brass
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Blazing Archon
1 Ancient Grudge
Lotus Petal can't replace the power of Lion's Eye Diamond, but it can make you cast two draw spells in the same turn, which adds some speed. If you expect heavy Eldrazi meta, go for Tireless Tribe, that dude can block for days. If you expect Deathrite Shaman decks, you can always play Firestorm main (as a discard outlet/removal). Don't play Street Wraith in the place of P.Imp: the lack of LED makes you want every discard outlet possible. Also, DDD is always an option on the draw, don't forget to abuse it against slower decks.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
The list you just posted is pretty much the exact list I'm going to be running. I'm planning on getting the LEDs, but right now I don't have the access to the cash. I'm just hoping its a competitive list.
What is the normal side boarding and plans against decks like Miracles and Shardless?
i'd consider running 1 firestorm over 1 breakthrough in the main as LED is useful as a discard outlet as well. (this will also allow you to cast breakthrough for 0 and cast firestorm with it on the stack.
the best advice that you can get when sideboarding is to side out as few cards as possible. (3-4...wouldn't do more than that)
-rob
ANY form of dredge is easy to blanket-hate.
Fighting through terminal hate landing on the field, like RiP or Cage, and still winning the match, is a low percentage play (for me)
The difference for me regarding the dredge variants IMHO, is that DRS is stronger against Manaless.
Extraction, taxing, counter & discard is stronger against the mana versions, but Mana versions will be faster in a gold-fishing sense, however how much faster will often be dependent heavily upon the build (think Petals etc.) and your opposition (counter, discard, taxing etc.)
"How much gravehate do you expect to see?" should be a large part of your decision whether you pick up ANY dredge/graveyard deck.
Prized Amalgam has only made Manaless more threat heavy than before, I feel.
Michael, I've run the Manaless PA/Force list competitively just the once so far, despite a LOT of testing.
Blue Manaless feels more consistent than it ever has for me, now we have PA to play with.
This is what i'm currently playing.
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
3 Breakthrough
1 Firestorm
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
SB
3 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ashen Rider
1 Griselbrand
2 Dread Return
In a pretty combo heavy meta ATM. Leylines have been pulling their weight and some. Edit : also recently got the the IDW art faithless lootings :)
on the play game 3 versus Jund Reanimator. Keep ?
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Soldier Stompy
I'd mulligan that opening 7 against any opponent. Hoping to get a dredger with your draw step and street wraith early on isn't ideal to say the least. Granted, you could go off on turn 2 if you are lucky enough to draw a dredger after you use street wraith, your draw step, or your first/second cephalid coliseum activation but I'd rather look for an opener that can start dredging as soon as possible. Luckily, Dredge is one of the few decks that can mulligan well enough to be down to 4 cards and still win.
Last edited by SHABOOGS; 06-24-2016 at 05:56 AM.
Agreed.
Went 3-3 and finished 17th out of 40 earlier today. These were my match ups:
Rd1 2-1 vs UB Reanimator
Rd2 0-2 vs Omnitell
Rd3 2-1 vs Grixis Delver
Rd4 0-2 vs Lands
Rd5 1-2 vs Grixis Delver
Rd6 2-0 vs UWr Miracles
Lost game 1 on all rounds played in 3 games. Saw minimal hate today (1 surgical and excluding DRS). Also didn't mulligan to oblivion today.
Some questions on sideboarding with the standard Moreno list:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12773&d=274072&f=LE
I've always liked maintaining the dredge engine and I like how the SB complements the plan. Petals can speed up the deck, Decay/Grudge can hit hate cards, and a Dread Return package can be added as needed
What's the board plan against a couple of fair decks?
Are there a couple of low impact cards like Careful Study and Street Wraith that are frequently cut, or does the board plan depend on the speed of the matchup? When is it correct to side out LED/breakthrough?
Also, when Abrupt Decay comes in, does Lotus Petal also come in to help cast it?
Many thanks!
-Dan
Hi Dan, Joe here
Like you I also like maintaining the dredge engine to as near as close to the main deck as possible so as to not dilute the inherent strength of the deck. I believe you hit the nail on the head with your assumptions; Petals are for combo matchups + Speed, but also helpful for casting Abrupt and playing around taxing counters like Daze and Spell Pierce. Decay and Grudge for hate pieces and other troublesome permanents and the DR package with bullets for specific matchups. etc..
I usually do board out the low impact cards like you mentioned notably Street Wraith in post board games, but for the most part I'm normally shaving cards to try and keep the main deck intact. At this point in time I'm not a fan of completely cutting out all LED or Breakthrough in post board games, because those are some of our most powerful cards. There are arguments for both keeping and cutting them, but whether its correct to do one or the other is subjective imo. They'll obviously be bad when your opponent drops RIP or Cage, but they'll be amazing when they don't.
Here is my general boarding strategy against most fair decks:
RUG:
-3 Street Wraith
+3 Lotus Petal
(If they have Surgical Extraction then also: -1 LED/Breakthrough/Golgari Thug/Careful Study, +1 Memory's Journey)
Its also important to note that by them seeing the Street Wraith game 1 it at least puts it in their mind that you might still have it G2. I only mention this because one would be quick to make the assumption that the Wraiths are just there to blank Surgical which is only a small part of it.
If they also have Graffdigger's Cage you can board just the same essentially:
-3 Street Wraith
-1 LED
-1 Breakthrough
-1 Careful Study
+3 Lotus Petal
+3 Abrupt Decay
BUG:
Again if they don't have Cage:
-3 Street Wraith
+3 Lotus Petal
The Petals enable broken starts and finishes alongside breakthough and LED and normally DRS can't keep up unless they have a bevy of countermagic to supplement it. And again if they have Cage then:
-3 Street Wraith
-1 LED
-1 Breakthrough
-1 Careful Study
+3 Lotus Petal
+3 Abrupt Decay
I don't want Decay if I know I only have to fight against DRS, but if they have Cage too I want to actually be able to get out from under it. If you're not comfortable fighting DRS without the Decay's then just follow the abrupt plan.
Blade Variants:
-3 Street Wraith
-1 LED
-1 Breakthough
-1 Careful Study
+3 Lotus Petal
+2/3 Abrupt Decay
+1/0 Ancient Grudge
I'm going to assume they have something like RIP, Relic of Progenitus, alongside troublesome equipment like Jitte which hurts more than B.Skull.
So you'll notice a trend. When its all said and done your main deck will be pretty much the same since the cards we took out like LED, breakthough, Careful study never impacted the graveyard anyway so bringing in answers like Abrupt Decay wont hurt your consistency with a lateral swap. Street Wraith provides us with extra black creatures, but thats why you're not seeing me cut any dredgers or Ichorid from my post board games so we can still reliably hit those cards.
Against Combo or any deck you want to bring in the DR pacakge its fairly straight forward:
-2 Ichorid
-3 Street Wraith
+3 Lotus Petal
+1 Dread Return
+1 Specific Target (Iona for Elves, Burn, Storm, Omni: Blazing Archon for S&T, Eldrazi: Ashen Rider for Omni, Lands (tabernacle, maze of ith, glacial chasm, Marit Lage), Painter (Ensnaring Bridge, Painter/Grindstone), Moats, elephant grass, Sneak Show everything and anything! lol.
Hope I was able to give some help on the matter. But let me know if something sounds confusing or if you need further explanation as to my choices. The sb is always going to be freestyle so you can't be too rigid when it comes to boarding; you don't strictly have to follow mine or any other guide, but at least I can provide you with my reasoning.
Hi Joe, thanks for the detailed response!
Against surgical extraction, do you like having access to Street Wraith for instant speed dredging?
Or is the effect minor enough that you prefer to leave the maindeck intact?
Against Surgical I would board in the Memory's Journey, but if you also want to keep the Street Wraiths for extra coverage then you could cut the other three cards I mentioned (LED, Breakthrough, Careful Study) and keep the Wraiths main.
Like you mentioned I believe the effect to be minor enough. In my experience one surgical extraction will not be enough to beat you because the opponent cares too much about all our cards whether they be Dredgers, Ichorids, Bridges, Narcos, or Cabal Therapy/Dread Return and they can't hit everything. You can also force them into a precarious situation if you're able to Cabal Therapy them without having committed anything to the graveyard for them to surgical.
At the end of the day I'm still going to be way more worried about Cage, RIP, and even Nihil Spellbomb is more annoying since you're forced to play into it so they crack it and then you have to rebuild.
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