[Primer] Elves!

[AznSeal]

I figured the main card wanted in the matchups being discussed is Gaddock Teeg. I realize GSZ -> Teeg is 1 mana cheaper. But in decks that run NO, you have the option of GSZ AND NO. I feel like in a vacuum, GSZ -> Teeg is better, but with NO? You can still do the former as well as NO -> Teeg or jut NO -> win.

[Lemnear]

I figured the main card wanted in the matchups being discussed is Gaddock Teeg. I realize GSZ -> Teeg is 1 mana cheaper. But in decks that run NO, you have the option of GSZ AND NO. I feel like in a vacuum, GSZ -> Teeg is better, but with NO? You can still do the former as well as NO -> Teeg or jut NO -> win.

Or you run more Teegs, save two mana AND a card compared to NO to search up a single Teeg in the 60.

[Lighning Bebbi]

The problems here were threefold. Overextending, no cardadvantage, bad boarding. Would have been good if the Armageddon/Decay would have besn creatures like R.Sage, which would have dealt with the Counterbalance AND Jace/Snapcaster, but yeah ... hivemind feat fancy bullshit like Armageddon.

- Overextending: I didn't. There was a reason why I played the Morph. He had a Jace coming down next turn. If I do not play the Morph I will never get a chance to handle his Jace. But yeah - he had the right answers to every plan I was on. I didn't expect a Terminus right after he countered my first Armageddon with CB/BS/Jace after Johannes "brainstormed" quite a long time. And snap-sworded my Wirewood Symbiote. So I decided not to bounce my Deathrite Shaman in response. He had no Top in play and 2 Brainstorms already played.

- no cardadvantage: sorry for my draws.

- bad boarding: sure!

Why would have been decaying this snapcaster a good play? I don't care Garruk's Ulti in this situation.

Btw:

1) Aluren 2:1
2) ANT 2:0
3) Infect 2:1
4) Miracle 1:2
5) 4c Delver 2:0
6) Lands 2:0
7) Ur Delver 1:1
8) Mud 2:1

1/4) Opposition 2:0
1/2) Miracle 0:2

[Noctalor]

Lets please not start a strawman discussion about a random setup tried for the slots free'd by cutting the NO package and pretend Shaman of the Pack is the best these slots can offer to fight Miracles, because we both know that Shaman/Ooze/Decay don't beat Terminus nor create the needed cardadvantage to made up for the inevitable Terminus.

You need to include cards which come with a clock AND create some form of cardadvantage, not the either/or nonsense we saw the video. Gaddock Teeg, R.Sage, Phyrexian Revoker and similar creatures fit the bill of creating actual or virtual Cardadvantage while also presenting a clock, so I think we should look at how these kind of cards perform against Miracles compared to NO rather than at some vanillas in this matchup like Shaman or nonsense like Armageddon. Even a jitte would have been worlds better

Agree, my concern is if those cards are good enough, playing a third color for a single teeg is not that appealing and switching 3/4 orders +1 craterhoof with 4/5 zenith targets is bad any time you draw the "wrong" target, topdecking a gaddock/shaman/ooze and stuff like that in the wrong mu is way less valuable than an order, and there are plenty of spots where having order get us to win in an otherwise unwinnable spot

Misses R.Sage, just like many of possible options we haven't even talked about. If Julian is so impressed about Jitte, I wonder why we don't also take a look at the Mirrodin swords like Fire&Ice, Light&Shadow and Body&Mind.

You mean like shredding the Chalice/Thorn/Jitte bullshit with multiple sages in the deck for cardadvantage and infinite chumpblock if paired with Symbiote?

Reclamation is a maindeck card in any list, is not related to playing order, also against eldrazi having reclamation + simbio is not the only step needed to win, they can thought knot post combat and remove it, they can cast an endbringer, they can play a jitte and equip a smasher, all is dust exist and stuff like that, is much better to have the gg button in that mu, there is not much to argue
Cards like jitte have good value but we can get much better agains miracles in my opinion.

Chain of Vapor is a card.

The list which won the last grand prix had none of those cards.
Also being forced to have the answer right away or to lose 12/18 hp is kinda good

Don't tell me what storm plays and boards. You need a perfect hand to drop NO into Ruric turn 2 as turn 3 can be too slow; Storm plays discard to foil that plan; they have plenty of time to find a CoV with the cantrips unless one opts to win with Ad Nauseam lol

Turn 2 zenith is not much more likely to happen than a turn 3 order, both will get removed from our hand anyway, this is why we are behind in that mu, but we get to interact post board so is not unreasonable to topdeck an order and snap win or having a zenith and 7 mana.
Of course maindeck gaddock is huge compared to having just the ruric thar in the board, but I dont think that facing storm + having zenith + having a dork + dodging discard is that valuable, is not likely to happen and you basicly splash a color for a single card, i value the second forest much more than the fetchable gaddock, and thats bound to order, in many games against our worst mu we cant generate a board so our best shot is to just build 5 lands + elf + order or to generate a decent land base and then going for a decent storm into an order in the same turn or the one right after.
That said both versions are unfavored against storm, against show and tell the order version is ahead and we share the same miserable mu against reanimator and fast combo

Funny that you meantion stuff like Ooze against Miracles, but opt to not mention the graveyard-hate when talking about Lands.dec. Without doing into details about whats possible (btw DRS beats Chasm), realize that cutting NO opens a shitload of slots in the 75 to include specific countermeasures too

Im playing 4 drs 4 zenith 2 surgicals 4 orders for progenitus in that mu, im missing the single ooze most likely, the card is good but again, is not worth a slot for lands that is an underplayed deck

Please .... Jund is currently 1,33% and Painter 0,93% of the metagame according to mtgTop8 and D&T just gets this:

Taxes is probably going to maindeck up to 4 new thalias, I guess im fine playing order into proggy tho.

And i wont go further talking about the games in the video, but if you think you can sit on a garruck and win you definitely miss what miracle tend to do, stuff like "uh now i play mentor i have 4 pieces out of nowhere" or "look is entreat see ya nerd!" happen a lot of times, playing a 1/1 more was usefull in that spot or he could have lost a fight over jace to a plow or snap, and thats more likely to the second terminus in a row for example.


My point is, i dont think that those 5/6 slot we get do more than what Order already does, being a bit better at someting is not relevent unless its able to turn the tides of a mu.

[Julian23]

BoM Strasbourg started out great for me with a quick 4-0. I then made a very slight mistake in game3 vs Jund that ended up costing me the match. From then on it went all downhill, losing to the Eldrazi nut draw, ANT winning with Ad Nauseam from 3 life and OmniShow turn2'ing me twice. But super happy to see 3 friends, including Basti with Elves, in the Top4! :-). For anyone interested, there's also feature match footage of my R3 match vs Grixis Delver and R4 vs BUG Opposition on Bazaar of Moxen's Twitch Channel.

On another note: here's my week#4 match of the Legacy Mediocre League against Lejay's Doomsday 2012. Check it out:

[Lemnear]

- Overextending: I didn't. There was a reason why I played the Morph. He had a Jace coming down next turn. If I do not play the Morph I will never get a chance to handle his Jace. But yeah - he had the right answers to every plan I was on. I didn't expect a Terminus right after he countered my first Armageddon with CB/BS/Jace after Johannes "brainstormed" quite a long time. And snap-sworded my Wirewood Symbiote. So I decided not to bounce my Deathrite Shaman in response. He had no Top in play and 2 Brainstorms already played.

Did not talk about the morph, but about stuff like the Armageddon against a deck with 22+ lands, Decaying the CB without the chance to profit from it, fetching the second Bayou instead of keeping the option for Dryad Arbor, the Symbiote, etc

- no cardadvantage: sorry for my draws.

Its not the draws. Its not maxing your options. I had no intent to sound like an ass, if I point to stuff, I consider questionable. Dare I ask what you removed for the Armageddon(s) and White Land(s)?

Why would have been decaying this snapcaster a good play? I don't care Garruk's Ulti in this situation.

Its not about the ultimate. Its about not losing your clock in the face of Jace's unsummon, Swords and Snapcaster beats

[Julian23]

Peter, you should really try Armageddon against Miracles. Of all the things, some crazier, some more sane, I've come up with over the years, Armageddon is probably the card that hits Miracles the hardest.

Also, not that their number of lands really matters, but Miracles is a 20/21 land kind of deck these days, that will only rarely have 22 lands.

[Lemnear]

Peter, you should really try Armageddon against Miracles. Of all the things, some crazier, some more sane, I've come up with over the years, Armageddon is probably the card that hits Miracles the hardest.

Also, not that their number of lands really matters, but Miracles is a 20/21 land kind of deck these days, that will only rarely have 22 lands.

Armageddon against three lands on the table and the opponent holding plenty of cards in hand doesn't sound amazing especially considering we tested Choke in the past (Yeah, I know about Wear/Tear being a factor). If we would want to control the opponents mana these days, I'd pick up Winter Orb as a faster, colorless option.

I however don't see that non-threats are the solution to the problem miracles duality of controling the stack & battlefield presents. We have to overburden their removal and control tools and can't attack just one aspect.

[dte]

I'm quite unsure that D&T would like to play four of the new Thalia: It still is a 3-drop that mainly fight fetches, and D&T tends to not play a lot of aven/arbiter lately.

Otherwise, on the raging NO-nonNO discussion: there is no perfect list, and playing it or not is for sure a meta choice.
NO is clearly good vs Eldrazi, and is good vs lands, nonU deck, most combos (ok vs storm, good vs elf, good vs burn, bad vs Sneak).
It is bad vs delver and miracle.

For the swords proposal: jitte is really good, but usually the first carrier dies. For the swords to activate, you need some sort of evasion. SoFI may be ok, being playable vs miracle and delver (thought gurmag and tarmo are a thing) but I do not think that's the best you can do with that slot.

Against which other MUs armagueddon is sided in? Almost every control MU and never against non control?

[Lemnear]

I'm quite unsure that D&T would like to play four of the new Thalia: It still is a 3-drop that mainly fight fetches, and D&T tends to not play a lot of aven/arbiter lately.

No. It fucks over Dredge, SneakAttack, Elves, any creature with haste, ANY KIND of nonbasic land, is a reliable kill-condition and much more. The new Thalia exposes fetches to wasteland, is a huge tempo swing in D&T's favor when dropping duals, is unsymmetric, does not die to Dread of Night, etc.

It has nothing in common with Mindscensor or Arbiter as her effect is not only more reliable, but she comes with a 3/2 firststriking body compared to Wingmare, Mindscensor or Leonin Arbiter. Its as big of a difference as comparing Steelshapers Gift to Stoneforge Mystic

[Echelon]

No. It fucks over Dredge, SneakAttack, Elves, any creature with haste, ANY KIND of nonbasic land, is a reliable kill-condition and much more. The new Thalia exposes fetches to wasteland, is a huge tempo swing in D&T's favor when dropping duals, is unsymmetric, does not die to Dread of Night, etc.

It has nothing in common with Mindscensor or Arbiter as her effect is not only more reliable, but she comes with a 3/2 firststriking body compared to Wingmare, Mindscensor or Leonin Arbiter. Its as big of a difference as comparing Steelshapers Gift to Stoneforge Mystic

It exposes fetchland to Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker, you silly goose. Why would you want to Waste a fetchland when you can just Waste the dual it gets (which enters the battlefield tapped all the same)..?

The only thing I'm concerned with for that card is how fast it can hit the field. Ideally you want to drop it T1, but that's just not going to happen consistently. Maybe combined with Sol lands, Moxes and CotV/tax effects you'll hit a certain consistency, I don't know. D&T will have to go through some enormous changes though.

[jjkbb2005]

In what way am I incorrect here? That seems perfectly plausible to me. Frankly this garbage attitude you perpetuate almost makes this thread unreadable at times.

[Echelon]

In what way am I incorrect here? That seems perfectly plausible to me. Frankly this garbage attitude you perpetuate almost makes this thread unreadable at times.

Well... Chain of Vapor also is a card. And then there's ANT/TES just being faster than Elves!.

So... You know...

[dte]

No. It fucks over Dredge, SneakAttack, Elves,

Well, the three MUs you cite are underrepresented and are hit much more by C priest.

any creature with haste, ANY KIND of nonbasic land, is a reliable kill-condition and much more. The new Thalia exposes fetches to wasteland, is a huge tempo swing in D&T's favor when dropping duals, is unsymmetric, does not die to Dread of Night, etc.

It has nothing in common with Mindscensor or Arbiter as her effect is not only more reliable, but she comes with a 3/2 firststriking body compared to Wingmare, Mindscensor or Leonin Arbiter. Its as big of a difference as comparing Steelshapers Gift to Stoneforge Mystic

Wingmare and mindcensor are unsymmetry as well, and have a body. 2 power Flying is relevant.
Dread of night is not played outside of some ANT, and it tends to disappear even there.

I'm not saying the card is not good. It is. I'm saying I really doubt it would be a 4-of in Death and taxes, as it is a legendary 3-drop. And 3 manas is not cheap.

[jjkbb2005]

Well... Chain of Vapor also is a card. And then there's ANT/TES just being faster than Elves!.

So... You know...

Uh okay your point is? Chain of Vapor has all but disappeared from most lists as it fails to interact with Chalice on 1. (* Excuse is not nearly as played to the same extent as it once was) The unfortunate thing is that Teeg is a bit of nonbo with NO but being able to land a Teeg on turn 2 with disruption in hand has been very good forcing ANT to fight on a different axis.

[MD.Ghost]

Lemnear is right about the new Thalia. This card is very good, yes it is not fast in a common DnT Shell (and they already try to battle us with slow plays like Stoneforge into Jitte ). Besides cc3 (which can be to slow, depends on which player are on the play/draw) this card is better than other hate bears (which will still see play, so you can expect to have a harder time), new Thalia will prevent Elves from Cradle into Cradle turns, even the first Cradle is exposed to Waste/Port, so hardcast Hoof is way harder, Glimpse Chains are harder if your dudes enter the Battlefield tapped etc. Sure you can still tap/untap/bounce some stuff, but you also face other hate bears, swords (or from WR Taxes: Sweepers), Revoker etc. and DnT only needs to buy time. The matchup (without the new set) is so good, because Elves are fast enough and the Hatebears can only kill one Combo Piece. If the play Canonist you can still trample over them with NO/Hoof or Rec.Sage Action, if the have Containment Priest you can still Glimpse for the Win or durdle around some turns with Visionary+Symbiote etc. Thalia 2.0 will make it harder for Elves, maybe not hard enough, but i feel "Auto Wins" vs DnT (one of our best matchups so far) are over with the new Set.

And we will see other brews (Soldier Stompy/Staxx/White Eldrazi) that will try to get Thalia online Turn 1, which can be really hard for a lot of decks^^

[Echelon]

Uh okay your point is? Chain of Vapor has all but disappeared from most lists as it fails to interact with Chalice on 1. (* Excuse is not nearly as played to the same extent as it once was) The unfortunate thing is that Teeg is a bit of nonbo with NO but being able to land a Teeg on turn 2 with disruption in hand has been very good forcing ANT to fight on a different axis.

The point was that you weren't as spot on as you thought you were. The point with Teeg is that if (and this is quite a big if) you manage to land him, he's likely to buy you some time but is in no way incredibly hard to deal with for a deck that runs about 10 cantrips (4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm and 2 Preordain) and 4/5 answers.

I can't help that the fact that needs to be explained to you causes experienced Storm pilots to facepalm.

[Lemnear]

In what way am I incorrect here? That seems perfectly plausible to me.

I explained it in the previous post, you seemingly did not bother to read, therefore Echelon repeats it:

Well... Chain of Vapor also is a card. And then there's ANT/TES just being faster than Elves!.

So... You know...

And...

this garbage attitude you perpetuate almost makes this thread unreadable at times.

...excuse me for not being interrested in repeating everything I have written before endlessly, because you opt to not read the previous posts about the topic

Edit:

Uh okay your point is? Chain of Vapor has all but disappeared from most lists as it fails to interact with Chalice on 1. (* Excuse is not nearly as played to the same extent as it once was) The unfortunate thing is that Teeg is a bit of nonbo with NO but being able to land a Teeg on turn 2 with disruption in hand has been very good forcing ANT to fight on a different axis.

See above. If one thinks he/she can reliable battle the discard & speed of combo with your average turn 3 NO into Ruric or GSZ into Teeg, let me tell you its a wacky plan. Some combo decks don't even have to board because of their speed or replace their anti-counter suit or stability against manadenial 1-to-1 with permanent removal like Decay/CoV/Disfigure/etc ergo not watering their deck down at all. You don't force anyone to fight on different axis if all storm needs to take care of are your permanents

[Lemnear]

Well, the three MUs you cite are underrepresented and are hit much more by C priest.

I'm not saying the card is not good. It is. I'm saying I really doubt it would be a 4-of in Death and taxes, as it is a legendary 3-drop. And 3 manas is not cheap.

C.Priest lacks the duality of hating lands & creatures while presenting itself a threat, ergo is no maindeck card unlike Thalia 2.0. Red&Taxes plays plenty of 3cc cards as a working concept and stuff like Mirran Crusader or Brimaz saw play in the past without bringing anything but beatz.

Thalia is a killcondition, hates Creatures and suppots the manadenial plan of the deck all at once. In a format full of nonbasics and Fetches, her impact is close to the original Thalia. I totally wanna see how Delver variants with their Fetch/Dual manabase and Dazes react to that card

[FradiBoscoCavo1]

I'm sorry to say something not entirely inherent with this latest part of the discussion, but I noticed that Sebastian's List on the Bazaar of Moxen's site is only 58 cards MD.
Does anyone know which are the missing ones, please?