Agreed, and those are great decisions to discuss.Originally Posted by AnziD
I agree with the 58:34 StP being a timing mistake that likely changed the outcome of the game, but I wasn't watching the other games in that match, so I'll have to go back and do that.
re 58:34 - Taking a step back, what are people's thoughts on Reid's play to expose his Deathrite Shaman to STP? It increases his clock by one turn at the cost of making him weak to STP.
G3: Are there any merits to throwing away that Snapcaster to the FoW when Reid went to Decay your Mentor to have a second blocker in order to have more blockers to eat more creatures?
Also, why did you use Top for your one Mentor trigger rather than drawing the Brainstorm post-draw step with Top to try and find a Terminus? It could have also gotten rid of the dead Wear//Tear (depending on what you drew).
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
32:55 and 35:16: I understand better now your play with your fear of discard spells. However, once he played Birchlore Ranger rendering Jace way worse, it might have been better to look for better cards (Terminus, Mentor, SCM + Stp) but maybe not as you mentionned.
36:35: I'm not sure i understand what you mean. You could have played mentor, drawn a card with Top, played brainstorm, put your 2 worse cards on top, cracked the fetch and played top and had a second important token.
You argument is to save your fetch for which Brainstorm ? The one you just played or the one you might draw ? If it's the one you just played, i think shuffling your 2 worse cards away and having an additional token is a pretty good use of your fetch. Moreover, you played Brainstorm on your turn so you would not have been able to cast a potential Terminus and you had only one mana left with your fetch so it was not possible to "fetch, top, find terminus and play it" so i don't understand the Terminus argument.
45:30: If you were convinced that Reid sideboarded out NO then it's allright. I played against some elves players in the past who kept it, that's why i was concerned. Keeping 6 manas for 2 SCM + value in case of Abrupt Decay is a good argument.
58:34: Yeah it's a pretty corner case scenario. I'm not sure i would have seen it either in live but i would have been more active to try to find it (like read again Wirewood Symbiote). I'm saying that because i really thought that you were very passive during this turn, like if you were waiting for it to end before doing anything. Making mistakes is the best way to make progresses but it's always frustrating to make a small mistake that might have cost you a match.
Haxorz: I think Reid played like that to be able to use Shaman on his turn and being able to save both elves in case of a sweeper during Das' turn or he might have thought that Das didn't have StP. Moreover, he needs to send back an Elf in hand to untap Shaman so in order to use twice Symbiote during Das' turn, he would have needed to send back 2 Elves in hand which was impossible as he had only one Elf (and Shaman). So basically, he couldn't used Shaman and saved it but he could have attacked with Shaman and kept both Symbiotes to save both his elves at all time. It's hard to say which play is better but the last i mentioned might be better.
CutthroatCasual, i agree with you :). Drawing Brainstorm with Top, play Mentor, then Brainstorm is better because 1) you put back Wear/Tear and more importantly if the third card is a fetch (or a land), you can play top and have a second token (and possibly shuffle right now bad cards away).
Greetings.
I watched most of anziD's match against Reid after you guys started talking about it. What struck me the most was the mechanical error on the Brainstorm at 32:25, and nobody has mentioned it yet. For anyone who hasn't seen it, or doesn't want to watch it again, the situation is the end of Reid's turn after an attack. Two Wirewood Symbiotes are on the board and both have been used. Anuraag fetches and then casts Brainstorm to set up a potential Terminus for the next turn. There has been debate already about which cards should have gone where.
I want to focus on the mechanics of the play. Anuraag can correct me if I am wrong, but I watched it six or seven times. He didn't look at the first card! That is unforgivably sloppy. If the first card happened to be a Terminus then everything gets pushed to the bottom and Reid has one card. Anuraag can untap and play Jace. The game ends.
In my mind, that is a bigger play error than any decision regarding what card to put back or when to cast Swords to Plowshares. It's something that cannot happen with MTGO, so I can understand the mistake. But that doesn't make it okay.
Good observation. His hand looks like it was two Brainstorms, a Snap, a Tarn, and a Counterspell, while he drew into (in order) Jace, Mentor, Terminus. If he had just activated top, he would have found the terminus and could have activated to kill them on eot instead of his upkeep, then untap and stick mentor + top (or jace) vs an empty board. Btw, congratulations on top 8 Joe!
Echinoderm is the common name given to any member of the Phylum Echinodermata.
Consider making powerful additions to your legacy deck by including the following cards.
http://images.magicmadhouse.co.uk/im...3-69441300.jpg
http://images.magicmadhouse.co.uk/im...0-27931100.jpg
Minniehaji I would be interested to see the list you used.
To add, I think AnziD was fetching too much when it's not apparent what he's looking for. With an active Top, fetches should be used sparingly. Aggressively fetching only leads to locking yourself into bad draws and wasting mana on theactivation. In early turns I'm okay blind drawing even with a Top in play if my opponent hasn't put out anything too impactful, especially if I know what they're on.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
You misunderstood. I'm not saying he should have topped first. I am saying that when you cast Brainstorm on your opponent's turn, you MUST look at the first card alone, to see if it is a miracle, before drawing the other two.
Thats...
a) a great point
b) extremely embarrasing
c) absolutely correct, as there is only upside.
No real justification for that mistake, was trying to play as quickly as possible and underestimated/didnt consider that line.
36:35 - Actually yeah, that sequence you mentioned would allow me to keep the fetch for Brainstorm. To clarify what I mean by the Terminus argument - after drawing Jace and fetching with Tarn there were 3 fresh cards on top of my deck. One of those could have been a Terminus. If one of those was a Terminus, I wanted to be able to cast it on Reid's turn to manage the worst case scenario. I would have to trade my Top, Mentor and Monk to cast the Terminus, but since I had Jace in hand its a trade I was willing to make. When you factor in that I can see 3 additional cards a turn sooner and that the Mentor/Monks don't really matter (questionable assumption based on using context clues to read the Decay in Reid's hand + my end goal was to find a Terminus (actually does Reid having Decay make the Mentor more important? Is two tokens + Jace enough to put me off the Terminus plan?)), I prefer not making the second Monk.
Do you have a timestamp? I'm not finding the scenario you're describing. Also, the merit of FOW'ing the AD is that I'd have an extra monk, but I don't think the impact of the 2nd or 3rd monk is worth it since I'm priced into blocking whatever he attacks with and simply attacking with the Nettle Sentinel would wreck my board. Basically I'd end up trading FOW + Snap for a Nettle Sentinel, which... there are probably better options than.
Mini-report:
SCGWOR Day 1 Side event (1PM)
Despite being a local, I wasn't able to play in the main event because of scheduling commitments. However, I was able to play (for 3 of the 4 rounds) of the 1PM side event. My list has the same Main as my earlier one here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post956384 but with SB Changes: 3 Flusterstorm; 2 Pyroblast; 2 Wear//Tear; 2 Surgical Extraction; 2 Price of Progress; 2 Vendilion Clique; 1 Predict; 1 Snapcaster
Round 1 - Grixis Delver
Game 1 - Play
After seeing a Deathrite Shaman, a Delver, and a Volcanic Island, I put him on Grixis. I have Grixis Delver and have played against it a handful of times to know the matchup; in this match, I was able to dodge hand destruction and was able to Terminus then CounterTop lock him.
IN: 3 Flusterstorm, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Wear//Tear, 1 Snapcaster
OUT: 4 Force of Will, 1 Counterspell, 1 EE
Notes: While I expected Abrupt Decay, I kept the Counterbalances as a means of pseudo-overloading it. In my testing, the most important offensive-defensive means to win is a protected Monastery Mentor.
Game 2 - Draw
I keep a hand with three Brainstorm on a Mulligan to 6, but (I believe) with a Snapcaster. I keep with the logic: if I get Therapied, then it's not necessarily likely that my opponent names Brainstorm (more likely naming Top); if I get Probed-then-Therapied, then the Snapcaster will help me get value from one of the Brainstorms; and if I get Probed-Therapied-and then they spend a threat card on the Therapy flashback, I will have earned enough tempo (about 2 or 3 turns) to get back in this game, because of how midrangey and single-threat Grixis is.
My opponent doesn't get a blind Therapy, and I am able to Predict-Snap-Predict into a Monastery Mentor, and protect it. At one point I get Duressed with a 2x CB in hand and a Brainstorm; I Brainstorm to put back one of the CBs and a Mentor in the top 2. My opponents leaves me with the CB in-hand (I think he took a Counterspell), and I reasoned he had a Decay. He spends a Decay on the first Counterbalance, and I'm able to then resolve the second with the Mentor to follow.
Round 2 - Goblins
I've only played against Goblins a handful of times, and I've always been out-grinded if I don't get a Mentor online and protect it. (The other means I'd conceived was flashing in a blocker on the Goblin Ringleader and then Surgicaling the *Ringleader. Very cheeky, and mostly incorrect).
Game 1 - Play
I get extremely lucky and find 2 Swords and 3 of my 4 Terminus (always play with new sleeves for maximum shuffle). With the stall I'm able to get, I have enough resources to resolve a Mentor and then protect it with instant-speed effects to defend against the Gempalm cycle.
IN: 2 Wear//Tear, 2 Price of Progress, 2 Vendilion Clique, 1 Predict, 1 Snapcaster
OUT: 3 Counterbalance, 2 Force of Will, 2 Jace, 1 Counterspell
Notes: I'm somewhat at a loss of what, exactly to bring in; part of my feeling was that I have a lot that could be justifiably cut. Jace gets cut because it just gets run over, but I keep in the Forces because of a T1 Aether Vial. I see he has Bolts game 1, so I leave in some countermagic.
Game 2 - Draw
This games goes longer and grindier than the first one. He's able to get a T1 Cavern, but I'm able to find ALL FOUR of my Terminus (somehow). Even with 2 and 3-for-1s, I am still unable to exhaust my opponent's resources; I am, however, able to stay at card parity with the Predicts. (Predict u da real MVP). At one point I land a Mentor, but am unable to protect it long enough.
The finish of the game was, of all things, a Price of Progress. From fetching and indicental Snap damage, he goes down to 13, and has 3 total nonbasics--but no Wasteland. My hand is a PoP, Counterspell, Force Clique, and Snap, and I'm at 2 life. He taps out for a Siege Gang Commander, and passes the turn with a lethal board. I cast Clique at the end step and he reveals: 1 Bolt, 2 Pyrokinesis, and a bunch of Red cards. I haste a decision and, like an idiot, take the Bolt (even though he's tapped out).
My goal was to Clique, PoP, go to my turn and Snap-PoP and then attack with the Clique. Had I taken one of the Pyrokinesis, I could have countered the remaining one and had my Clique live. After the Clique resolves, I PoP him for 6 damage. On my Turn, I Snap-PoP for another six, and then I swing for lethal with Clique. My opponent missed the double Pyrokinesis. I got very lucky this game. Afterward, my opponent told me he was too hung up on the idea of using Pyrokinesis on a Mentor that he missed the double-play on the Clique.
Round 3 - Enchantress
So now I know why they call this deck Solitaire.
Game 1 - Play
I'd seen he was on Enchantress, but I wasn't sure how to approach the matchup. He starts off resolving some of theland enchantments, and an Argothian Enchantress, and most importantly: an Elephant Grass. I get a Mentor onboard that can't attack, and he then quickly spirals from there. I struggle along and get an EE for 3 to remove the Solitary Confinement and the E. Presences. I considered EEing for 1 to remove some of the landchantments, but that wouldn't deal with the Confinement. Once he lands the Moat, I know that I can't find a Jace AND uptick him before he draws and casts an Emrakul.
IN: 2 Wear//Tear, 2 PoP, 1 Snap, 1 Predict
OUT: 4 Swords, 2 Terminus
Notes: I have no idea here. This felt like 12-post in the sense it's so hard to interact with and seems so inevitable.
Game 2 - Play
I have to mulligan and find a hand with a Top, Brainstorm, and Counterspell. I believe my best plan is to stall and find a Mentor and then attempt to race. I lead with an Island, Top. He leads with a Carpet of Flowers. I get a second Island, and pass. He casts an Elephant Grass, which I tap out to counter. With me tapped out, he lands a Choke. I have a fetch in hand and try to find a Wear//Tear, but it wouldn't have mattered.
Round 4 - Drop
It was getting on 4:30, and I had places to be!
###
I kinda like PoP, and I tried it out at the side event because I wanted to test its strength outside of my local (rather inbred) metagame. It seems pretty good, and there are some matchups that go long that I imagine it can just... win. Being Snap-able is really valuable; something that Blood Moon doesn't have (and From the Ashes practically doesn't have).
I'm still on the fence about it, though: is having a third red-blast effect and/or a third Wear//Tear that much stronger against the field?
###
This lesson can be learned the hard way when one dexterity Brainstorms and picks up three cards only to find the top was a Terminus. Joe is right--it's a situational awareness test: when you need it, you need to know to be careful with the first card.
For the predict lists with Engineered Explosives, has anyone considered/tested a 1 of academy ruins? Maybe it is too cute, but it seems powerful with the lock and the added bonus of resurrecting Tops.
Why actually yes! I tested it quite a bit as the 20th land over a Preordain. Ultimately I wanted greater consistency and felt like it was fun but not particularly needed.
Yea that makes sense. I like the EEs in theory. I always want answers to non creature permanents, but Council's Judgement feels so clunky.
I've continued to run EE in my Predict main for this reason. (I run a basic mountain which helps facilitate the 3rd color of mana). The biggest upside EE has is that it can hit multiple permanents.
This pseudo-Terminus effect is somewhat balanced by how it requires more mana to be online (for X = 0, it's less expensive; 1, it's at parity; 2 and 3 it's more costly). It is faster once resolved because it can work at instant speed.
The best use for it is the strategic effect that it can have to the opponent. Against, say, Death & Taxes with a Thalia and a Stoneforge Mystic that just tutored for a Jitte, a EE with 2 counters can deter the Jitte from ever coming down, or a Revoker/Serra Avenger from ever getting deployed.
Would love to hear about your testing results. Can't wait to test this guy myself.
Timestamp 59:08. You drew with Top (Mentor) in upkeep, then drew Top for draw. I think you should have drawn Mentor for draw, then drew Brainstorm for M1. You knew you had garbage in hand, so why not take a chance seeing an extra card deep with Brainstorm (since you're going to get 1 token either way).
That then leads into my suggestion of FoWing the AD. If you drew the Brainstorm and Brainstormed to trigger Mentor, you would have found a second blue card to pitch to FoW (at least another Snapcaster that you knew about, which would have been redundant and worth little because you'd only have 1 spell worth flashing back in STP). The Brainstorm would have actually gotten you, in this order: Top, Snap, and another FoW (so you pitch that to the FoW on AD), and put back a Wear//Tear and probably the second Snapcaster (keep that one on top).
Mentor is on blocking duty so you'd want as many blockers as possible while you try to dig for a Terminus. Plus, by FoWing the AD, you even get a 2/2 monk which can actually EAT something which is much better than just trading.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
Nop, don't care about what people in Europe are doing with Miracles. They'll eventually get crushed by Storm pilots in Europe anyway.
The first problem with EE is that it cannot serve to get rid of opponent's Jace, or any other ridiculous high CMC planeswalkers. The second problem with EE is its inability to get rid of Null Rod. However, people seem to favor Winter Orb over Null Rod right now.
Ah yes, the "only what I think is good and close to me can be good" standard of deck analysis. Seems to be the actual worst way to make Miracles better.
At this point, it's best to just ignore him.
Many people have asked me to the post the list I won the IQ with (hasn't shown up SCG's website yet for some reason)... Here it is:
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Plains
4 Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Counterspell
1 Preordain
2 Predict
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Counterspell
I was still rather unhappy with how my combo matchups felt, even with this iteration of the deck, so I decided to move forward by cutting the Blood Moons from my deck, and adding in a ton more combo hate. I went back to Cliques because, while Cliques on their own aren't really good enough anymore in most scenarios, a high saturation of Cliques can come in and you can take mentor out to provide both pressure and a clock in many scenarios, allowing your deck to remain flexible in a lot of scenarios. That being said, here's how I chose to move forward with the no Jace 4 Mentor builds that Wilson and Phillip pioneered:
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
2 Predict
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
It feels really good to board in 15 cards vs Omnitell =P.
Obviously, this isn't as well tested as other decks and results you've seen, but I would consider it to be an evolution of Wilson's deck that helps shore up what I believe are the poor matchups for that deck: Smart Pilots, Fast Combo, and savvy Mirror pilots.
I took the above list to a 5 round Win A Dual event that I 5-0'd with, beating Grixis Delver, Omnitell (the weird new hybrid build, lost preboard, demolished post board even in the face of Boseiju), Turbo Depths, UR landstill, and Reanimator.
Being flexible was a very important factor. The biggest issue I've had with the 4 mentor build is that it was rather one-dimensional and had some issues fading into the late game vs grindy decks as well as surviving the early turns via combo. I believe that with this high saturation of Cliques, maintaining the post board 4 snapcaster+powerful spells configuration will give it a fighting chance in continuing to evolve the deck. I don't have as much testing and evidence with this 3 SB Clique list beyond the Win-a-Dual event, but I intend to take it to every event I can. I believe it seriously has legs and is far more robust than the previous mentor decks that people have tried.
I think a lot of people are too attached to their Jaces to even contemplate cutting them; I've received plenty of criticism from my own testing group for doing this =P but if you have an open mind, I'd definitely suggest giving a list like this a try! If you really really want to keep the nonbasic land hate, you can probably cut down to 3 blasts and 2 cliques in order to accommodate them, but I believe that eldrazi etc can be fought with the core of the deck already: the 4 Mentor 2 EE plan and the cliques help supplement that matchup as well.
I'd be happy to field questions and constructive criticism.
There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)
Reply With Quote