I think he is playing same list GP Columbus.Originally Posted by Animal
as a disclaimer; I don't beat miracles that often. I beat the "scrubby" miracles players about 90% of the time but anyone who has any real reps with the deck and is just a good/smart player---my winrate is closer to 25% vs them.
the way I've been siding is:
+4 decay
+1 needle
+1 shaman of the pack
+1 thoughtseize (this is a flex spot, but I still like having access to it sometimes)
-2 NO
-2 glimpse
-2 heritage
-1 1cmc duder (depends on the build..if they look like a blood moon version I'll stay with 4 quirion for example)
I wasn't siding out all my NOs only because I like to apply pressure to their resources and NO is hard for them to counter with CB/top... but like I said in a previous post I am going to start experimenting with other sb plans because ~25% isn't good enough to be competitive in this meta of mostly miracles.
I would really advise to remove some cradle against miracle, the card is pretty bad.
And if you only remove 3 creatures, keep glimpses.
Depending on my 75 (or more :) ), I usually try to bring seize OTP but not OTD, SDT being almost the only card you really want to discard.
Also, you remove 2 NOs but no NO targets?
I tend to win a lot of games with cavern on beast vs them.. and NO for rec sage is a play that happens more often than not ;)
but yea, I cut cradle sometimes too--as many as two. I sb by feel mostly tbh, what I posted is just a loose strategy. Some opponents seem weaker to different things. For example if I notice in game 1 they never really play around a NO off the top--I will likely keep more NO in. If they seem like a newer miracles player and don't understand the logistics of grinding a game out--I will sometimes sb most of my spells except gsz and just go for the anemic beatdowns plan.
I'd be interested to see how others who have more success vs miracles do things--because like I said, mine is not exactly a winning strategy vs them. I'll go so far as to say if they somehow ban top, my tournament win percentage will likely double in the next few months.
What I do against miracle is to board out both Orders and Glimpses, Order is almost never good and glimpse is likely just not gonna work.
I don't board in any discard spell, the game will go into late game most likely and discard could be bad in the later stage.
I side in 4 Decays, 2 Chokes and 2 Surgicals, the Decays are a must both for Counterbalance and for board control, the plan is to hit with a bunch of dudes, you often need to remove a snapcaster/vendilion/mentor, also you could get to break a top.
Surgical is in my experience really good in this MU, we can deal with a Terminus most likely and we can force the miracle player to commit into a second terminus and remove it with the miracle trigger on stack, snapcaster on plowshares is also a thing we want to avoid.
Choke is not actually that good, but it has the potential to lock the game, also is pretty good to put additional pressure while not overextending into Terminus.
I can see Needles, planeswalkers and in general value cards being good in this MU, but at the moment im fine with what I've got.
During the game our plan is to have a decent race while committing as little as possible, I would try to have 2/3/4 damage on board and 1/2/3 pieces, and at least a piece able to save another, is really important to squeeze the most value from all our cards, we have to try our best to fetch Dryad Arbors as many times as possible, leaving fetches on board is very important as a tool to reassemble a quick race after we get terminused, if possible we have to try to get a deathrite up to keep in check snapcesters, and our goal ideally would be to generate advantage with wirewoods and visionary.
Wirewood is by far the MVP here, always try to have one up if possible, nettle holds a lot of value just because is a 2/2 that can generate good pressure just being paired with a quirion/wirewood.
So my gameplan is to just grind slowly, you tend to lose if they get 3/4 terminus and/or 3/4 plowshares, you also have to go all in as soon as a mentor comes into play, mentor + terminus is game most likely because we must overcommit.
and well, the mu is not that bad if you play correctly, you have to force the control player to play your game, is of course way easier with trashy players (and most miracle ones are) but it does make the mu something like a 40/60, nothing impressive but is decent at least.
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
some of my friends locally were having a discussion about Winter Orb and I got to thinkin about its application for us vs. miracles. Has this one been discussed before?? Seems like us getting to untap cradle still with the ability to use our forests/arbors thx to quirion is a huge mana advantage-- especially if they're ever forced to tap out at all.
on surgical extraction: it's been my observation that it's sometimes not good just because it's a 1cmc card... I can see the application vs snapcaster and terminus but it could also be a liability if countertop is online.
(altho...the idea of surgical'ing all the termini or swords seems pretty nice!)
Just qualified for the Legacy Festival with a 5-0 with NO Elves. If you're looking for a super solid, allrounder built, this is what I recommend. Whether you opt for Mindbreak Trap or Surgical Extraction is more of a personal choice, depending which matchup you wanna hedge against:
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
As classic and clean a build as it gets. But 1 Cavern, 3 Decays in a Miracles-y/Chalice-y meta?
A good question.
What is your sideboard plan against miracles? Or were you just hoping to dodge the matchup?
With this list I'd go with something like:
+4 Thoughtseize
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
-2 Gaea's Cradle
-4 Natural Order
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Heritage Druid
Maybe even bringing in the 2 Cabal Therapy over another Nettle Sentinel and a Qurion Ranger, even though I've never been a fan. Would love to have Surgical Extraction though, it makes things easier.
With a list like this, it's still a bad matchup, even worse if they have actual sideboard cards agaisnt us. Your best bet asside from getting a good start that allows you to even outgrind Terminus, is to go for the old end-of-turn-Decay-Top line.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
How about SB against delver decks? I've been struggling against those lately
Your options would be discard=>NO=>Prog or grindstation mode and boarding in Ooze and Decay.
Delver decks tend to run out of counterspells quickly (they have no way to reliably refuel from their tempo plays). Jamming threat after threat generally works. Also, there are some permanents they are very hard-pressed to even answer...such as WRP, non-lethal hoofs (5/5 is just that good), and scoozes. If you can blow up their delvers, they lose a realistic clock and can't beat your deck with over a dozen must-answer threats.
depending on the flavor of delver, sb is much more straightforward for them-- +4 decay, +1scooze, -1NO, -1gsz, -2 heritage, -1 rec sage (unless you suspect a cage). An argument can be made for progenitus too, but if you bring him in then cutting the NO is silly...I usually don't bother with him vs delver decks tho.
as I tell all my delver-playing friends: the only way delver beats elves is with disruption PLUS a clock... hands where they don't flip delver by turn 2/3 there is no clock...and hands where they have multiple flipped delvers early sometimes lack enough interaction to matter. Unless they have both, they can't win--so if you decay the delvers...;) ez win.
thoughts on the elves opposition list that was featured on SCG today?
seems like it plays out like chaos elves but packs more disruption
I feel like the garruks are unnecessary, and would love for those to be NOs and maybe a progenitus as well
Additionally brainstorm seems like it would fit nicely and works really well with coiling oracle and shardless agent
8 visionaries seems like overkill, and I would definitely want more symbiotes to go with them, maybe even a single dwynen's elite to synergize with the opposition/cabal therapy plan
18 lands seems like too few especially since 4 of them don't add mana on turn 1.
I don't think the noble hierarchs are necessary and would rather have 1 more death rite and 3 brainstorms, or go more of a nic fit approach and play veteran explorers
I like the idea of main decking reclamation sage if there is room
You are aware that you are crossing a certain line here if you promote "running blue in addition to BG, use mainboard discard, Brainstorm, Shardless Agent, less creatures overall and more"? The deck already exists.
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I am aware of shardless BUG, but the list posted on SCG is closer to elves than anything else. My question is whether it should be more like elves with opposition and discard, or more like shardless with elves.
Or is it just a flash in the pan and we will never see the likes of it again.
It's definitely very Shardless-like. The Garruks are probably additional hedges against Miracles, and are also a brilliant win-con due to the easy ult and lot of creatures. I've seen him do work in my modern enchantress deck, letting Arbolf Elf and friends win very suddenly. I do agree about additional Wirewood copies.
I think there are some...half-elf?...areas that have yet to be fully explored and optimized. Stuff like this, or Cloudvine (Cloud of Faeries/Fauna Shaman/Vengevine) sort of decks that use pieces of the Elf engine but use it to go a different direction or break out other tricks. The real difficulty is balancing the lack of full engine components with better individual cards. Baleful Strix vs Elvish Visionary for instance.
It's much closer to a deck like Shardless or Food Chain than it is to Elves. The deck contains what, 5 strikingly Elves cards? The rest is cantrips with a body and a basic disruption package. There's no Nettle mana engines, no plethora of untap effects, no Glimpse...
Should we care? There is no real existing other thread in which to discuss it, so...
Opposition seems to be a strong gamebreaker vs Sneak and Show, and quite good vs any aggro deck. The 8 visio + 3 shardless + 3 decay + 3 garruck MD seems more than very strong vs miracle.
I wonder about a couple of things in this list:
- why noble #4 above DRS #4?
- why only one symbiote?
- the 3 garruck seems a bit of overdoing to me.
- hoof without NO, heritage and nettle does not seem that easy to GSZ for.
- why bother with 3 winter orb if the miracle MU is already good? it is golden with oppo but isn't it a bit overkill?
- why no one-off quirion to tutor for, especially with 3 winter orb SB, 3 oppo and 2 dryad MD?
- why playing blue, but not a single BS, counter (bad with shardless, but is that enough? is sharless that good without ancestrall, BS, Lib and when you already have 8 visio?), neither Edric?
I would like to get some of your thoughts on these issues :)
There are cards which are good vs Sneak/Show like Karakas which don't cost you double blue to cast with your manabase of Caverns, Bayou, Forest and Cradle or still fold to instand speed Terminus.
1) you expect a solid reasoning for Noble from us here? I suspect its simply because he had no 4th DRS
2) because the list isn't geared to the untap/bounce synergy of Elves, but to cardadvantage-with-a-body which you can use to attack or for Opposition
3) of course its too much as a silverbullet or as a token-engine for Opposition. I would have used Bitterblossom here if the goal is spamming the field.
4) he still runs cradle, or did I miss something?
5) why the hell do you think the miracles matchup is good??? Opposition is unable to stop Terminus and without creatures the whole Opposition nonsense is dead.
6) see 2)
7) for the same reason Meerfolk does not: The deck is pure redundancy already, full with cardadvantage-with-a-body cards, just like Meerfolk is stuffed with lords and doesn't need BS to find them.
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