All B/R update speculation.

[Spam]

I mean with that logic artifact lands, stone forge and Jace the mind sculptor should be banned

If wizard wanted to ban miracles they could use the same reasoning behind the twin ban in modern.
SdT and CB is a compact 2 cards combo that stifles any other control strategies. With that said, I'm not advocating a miracles ban, just that the justification is already there.

[kirkusjones]

Does Wizards use the same criteria for banning in Legacy as they do in Modern? I may very well be wrong, but many of the ban/unban decisions for legacy seem more nebulous, usually citing oversaturation of a certain card across the metagame rather than neutering anything but the most offensive two-card combos (see Hulk Flash).

[Dice_Box]

Reason? No one knows. What they say these days when they take action is a pittance of a comment. Once you had large in depth articles whenever action was taken, no longer is tags true.

As for the Motervations, no, Modern was unique. Because Wizards banned and unbanned things in the format to "Rotate" it. Something that should not happen now it's no longer a pro tour format.

[Barook]

Tundra use per deck on MTGO

Miracles has a total share of 16.48% in the meta (no idea why one list seperate from the others). Tundra has a total metashare of 17.88%.

Which means a "healthy" 92.2% of all Legacy Tundra decks on MTGO are Miracles. The few poor saps left are Blade decks. I never thought it would be that extreme.

[Lemnear]

Tundra use per deck on MTGO

Miracles has a total share of 16.48% in the meta (no idea why one list seperate from the others). Tundra has a total metashare of 17.88%.

Which means a "healthy" 92.2% of all Legacy Tundra decks on MTGO are Miracles. The few poor saps left are Blade decks. I never thought it would be that extreme.

Its disturbing, but I am glad I asked in the first place.

Now its up for discussion, what actually happend to UWR Patriot, UW Stoneblade, Deathblade or to SFM+TNN in general, which could never recover their metagame position despite the TC/DTT ban

[Dice_Box]

no idea why one list seperate from the others

It's the Legends build. Likely set aside from the more mainstream Snap Snap/Mentor lists.

[PirateKing]

Its disturbing, but I am glad I asked in the first place.

Now its up for discussion, what actually happend to UWR Patriot, UW Stoneblade, Deathblade or to SFM+TNN in general, which could never recover their metagame position despite the TC/DTT ban

I think with the loss of weekly large SCG Legacy tournaments there was also the loss of the grinder crowd that would change decks monthly to chase the new hotness. Seems like the people I play now generally have 1 or 2 decks that they've played for years, and have the capitol to make on color adjustments, turn BUG Delver into Shardless BUG, but they're not going to show up next week with D&T. But it's all pet decks, some which are coincidentally good, but it's not the "built morning of the tournament with borrow cards from my carpool mates". It seemed like a lot of kids jumped onto the Viking Funeral boat when it premiered and then got stuck there after the ban. And now without high profile winners every week, people either left the format or just stuck with whatever they had last.

[Spam]

Its disturbing, but I am glad I asked in the first place.

Now its up for discussion, what actually happend to UWR Patriot, UW Stoneblade, Deathblade or to SFM+TNN in general, which could never recover their metagame position despite the TC/DTT ban

Decks have become more resilient to wasteland. I feel that almost every deck in legacy has developed a good way to mitigate land destruction, thus preventing those deck from coming back.

About stoneblade decks, I guess Cabal therapy has basically wiped away any card advanced that Stoneforge gave them.

[iatee]

Its disturbing, but I am glad I asked in the first place.

Now its up for discussion, what actually happend to UWR Patriot, UW Stoneblade, Deathblade or to SFM+TNN in general, which could never recover their metagame position despite the TC/DTT ban

Who cares if they'll never recover their metagame position? Same with Maverick or whatever other used-to-be-t1 deck. If part of the argument against Miracles is based on the idea that it's impossible to knock it out of being a t1 deck then it should be a positive thing that the meta has evolved in other ways and maybe yesteryear's decks might not come back.

Also, as far as control decks go, Stoneblade control decks are pretty boring to play. Cast Stoneforge, cast TNN, grind them out. Miracles is fun to play. You get to make a lot of decisions, you get rewarded when you play well, you feel like you can always improve by playing more. It's easy to forget that this is a game and people are here to have fun. Most people who want to play Tundras are going to find it more fun to win with tricky Miracles plays than they will with Jitte+TNN - this is totally independent of how well-positioned the decks actually are.

[Lemnear]

About stoneblade decks, I guess Cabal therapy has basically wiped away any card advanced that Stoneforge gave them.

As much as I love to to that against SFM.dec, i doubt CabalTherapy is played enough to be responsible for SFM dying out. Moreover, I doubt that most players running CT are relaxed enough to simply wait for their opponents to drop the [Squire], but CT for SFM directly

[CptHaddock]

Also, as far as control decks go, Stoneblade control decks are pretty boring to play. Cast Stoneforge, cast TNN, grind them out.

As opposed to counterbalance locking someone then trying to find 1 out of 6 win conditions?

[Spam]

As much as I love to to that against SFM.dec, i doubt CabalTherapy is played enough to be responsible for SFM dying out. Moreover, I doubt that most players running CT are relaxed enough to simply wait for their opponents to drop the [Squire], but CT for SFM directly

Maybe the simplest answer is the right one: they realized that miracles was the better deck and jumped on it.

[iatee]

As opposed to counterbalance locking someone then trying to find 1 out of 6 win conditions?

I think most Miracles players probably find counterbalance locking someone to be fun. It isn't always straightforward, sometimes you're even bluffing, you have to make lots of decisions about cards to keep, order, etc.

From a utilitarian POV I very much doubt the existence of countertop adds net fun to our format but for Miracles players yeah I think they're generally enjoying it.

[Barook]

Maybe the simplest answer is the right one: they realized that miracles was the better deck and jumped on it.

Probably. Miracles can't generate its steadily increasing metagame share out of thin air.

Out of interest, I checked the other duals. Plateau's sample size is basically non-existant. But no other dual land has such a lopsided deck distribution like Tundra.

[Lemnear]

Who cares if they'll never recover their metagame position? Same with Maverick or whatever other used-to-be-t1 deck. If part of the argument against Miracles is based on the idea that it's impossible to knock it out of being a t1 deck

Wait! Wait! Is this coming from the same corner of the forum who claimed "Miracles in it's current form has to stay as it's the only real control deck"?

It's hypocritical if people in this thread argue that "Legacy must have a real Control deck for strategic diversity" but at the same time tell me "Aggro is fine to completely die, because fuck strategic diversity"

Also, as far as control decks go, Stoneblade control decks are pretty boring to play. Cast Stoneforge, cast TNN, grind them out. Miracles is fun to play. You get to make a lot of decisions, you get rewarded when you play well, you feel like you can always improve by playing more

Oh, the "fun" argument! TheSource's variant of Godwin's law! May we hear some players how "boring" it is to be locked out of Chalice or Countertop from playing their decks!

Honestly, I had had hopes there are better arguments on the topic of potential bannings than "Fun"

It isn't always straightforward, sometimes you're even bluffing, you have to make lots of decisions about cards to keep, order, etc.

Is that an euphemism for [to run out the clock]?

[iatee]

Wait! Wait! Is this coming from the same corner of the forum who claimed "Miracles in it's current form has to stay as it's the only real control deck"?

It's hypocritical if people in this thread argue that "Legacy must have a real Control deck for strategic diversity" but at the same time tell me "Aggro is fine to completely die, because fuck strategic diversity"



Oh, the "fun" argument! TheSource's variant of Godwin's law! May we hear some players how "boring" it is to be locked out of Chalice or Countertop from playing their decks!

Honestly, I had had hopes there are better arguments on the topic of potential bannings than "Fun"

a. Sorry I don't personally care about whether Legacy has a draw-go style control deck for strategic diversity. I think Miracles is a very interesting and skill-testing deck, which is ultimately why I think it's good for the format even though I don't play it myself.

b. My 'fun' argument was explaining *why* people choose certain decks and play them, which is a large contributing factor to what decks constitute the metagame. It's completely independent to any argument over whether a card should get banned.

[Fox]

Tundra use per deck on MTGO

Miracles has a total share of 16.48% in the meta (no idea why one list seperate from the others). Tundra has a total metashare of 17.88%.

Which means a "healthy" 92.2% of all Legacy Tundra decks on MTGO are Miracles. The few poor saps left are Blade decks. I never thought it would be that extreme.

Why wouldn't it be that extreme, miracles is strictly better when it comes to overall win %. The same is true of Shardless BUG vs. jund and grixis Delver vs. RUG Delver. As far as miracles vs Blade decks, it's a lot harder to win a game when you have to use a counterspell from hand rather than tapping 1 land for each spell you want to stop (i.e. SDT/CB); this is an oversimplification, but it's generally accurate. You take that away (Counterbalance) and Blade control variants come back in a big way, and such decks are much more able to incorporate newly printed cards not confined to simply being direct upgrades.

[Blastoderm]

Lol if we apply the "fun" reasoning to Legacy, we will end up with a format similar to Modern where kiddies from standard don't like getting Grapeshot to the face for 50.

[Barook]

Why wouldn't it be that extreme, miracles is strictly better when it comes to overall win %. The same is true of Shardless BUG vs. jund and grixis Delver vs. RUG Delver.

Except Tropical Island, Volcanic Island, Underground Sea and Bayou see play in alot of different decks. If you play WU, it's basically Miracles or nothing because Blade is outclassed.

[Lemnear]

Except Tropical Island, Volcanic Island, Underground Sea and Bayou see play in alot of different decks. If you play WU, it's basically Miracles or nothing because Blade is outclassed.

It doesn't suit as an argument in this discussion, rather than an anecdote of how Miracles has streamlined control decks :)