All B/R update speculation.

[Zombie]

The assertion that this kind of deck can't exist isn't even true. It may not be the only deck with a two-digit percentage representative in the metagame but it can exist without Top, Terminus or Counterbalance.

I also think the assertion that Miracles doesn't present threats early in the game is untrue as well, or at least subjective. T1 Top, T2 CB might as well be a Progenitus against some decks.

No, no, you see, Countertop is not Prison, it is Control so it's fine that your deck is uncastable and a reactive move rather than a proactive one.

[Fox]

So...
Deathblade, Bant Midramge, are both not midrange decks, and Patriot Delver is not a Tempo deck?

Nether of which are hard control decks!

For healthy Diversity, we don't just need a lrge number of archetypes - we need these teir archetypes to be as distinct as possible. eg - a 15% meta-share for 4-Clolour Delver is probably fine if that's the only tempo deck in the format. But if Thresh, team America, and R/U Devler are 7-8%. it's too much tempo.

That's the argument. Trading our one and only true control deck will hurt diversity even if we get three or four good-stuff midrange decks back in exchange.

We had this discussion some pages back with along with @btm10 on page 718; solid points on all sides. To add new content, the Tempo plan of patriot Delver runs Bolt, Delver, and StP (I'm guessing here; closest thing I've played vs was UWR Stoneblade, maybe Delver doesn't run StP?) which doesn't really work together in the streamlined plan that is a Delver deck. Theoretically though if my turn 1 play is Tundra -> Delver, I have to imagine that the most important thing for me to do is find a not-white dual because the white portion of the deck is doing something fancy (equipment stuff?) rather than piling on the pressure. Maybe patriot Delver doesn't use any SFM/Batterskull (again not really familiar with the list), but if it does it will also have worse Brainstorm utilization [playing lands] as it will want to get to 5 mana quicker. Dealing damage quickly and prioritizing spells in hand over lands on board has never been white's strong suite. While patriot or bant Delver exist, they seem (again in the theoretical) to be the Delver decks most unable to realistically operate on one land for extended periods of time.

You can certainly call a deck midrange because Terminus x4, Entreat x1-2, SDTx3 (leave 1x in) became SFM x4, Bskull x1, Jitte x1, Trinket Mage x1 + toolbox slots x1-2 (EE and Pithing Needle being classic examples with the SDT left in)....but if your plan is T1 Ponder or somesuch -> T2 go for SFM -> T3 hold mana up to bring in Bskull -> T4 attack for 5, then you better have some absurdly controlling elements because that's a really grindy plan. That's what doesn't make sense about 'if you ban Miracles (i.e. CB) legacy will have no control deck' arguments; you know miracles goes straight to Blade variants and that their midrange [semantics] strategy absolutely requires them to be a control deck.

[maharis]

If Wizards is really concerned about hard control "disappearing" without Miracles, the best card to ban is Counterbalance. That would still allow a 4 Top 4 Terminus deck that wants to be creature-light. Top-Standstill-draw-go with Terminus as a release valve is still a pretty good deck. It just won't force everyone to play Abrupt Decay or lose.

[Mr Miagi]

There is no rule that says there must be one in the format.

or a tier one at least

[iatee]

If Wizards is really concerned about hard control "disappearing" without Miracles, the best card to ban is Counterbalance. That would still allow a 4 Top 4 Terminus deck that wants to be creature-light. Top-Standstill-draw-go with Terminus as a release valve is still a pretty good deck. It just won't force everyone to play Abrupt Decay or lose.

The 4 Top 4 Terminus deck seems pretty weak to combo. I like Miracles but Top is an obnoxious time sink for tournaments so if they're going to kill the deck, might as well solve that problem too.

[maharis]

The 4 Top 4 Terminus deck seems pretty weak to combo. I like Miracles but Top is an obnoxious time sink for tournaments so if they're going to kill the deck, might as well solve that problem too.

Top is only a time sink because of Counterbalance. It forces you to activate more and encourages you to tank more. Otherwise its not any worse than casting a cantrip or using a Sylvan Library every turn.

I played Top the other night and maxed out at about 5 seconds on an activation. Granted I was just digging for more Siege Rhinos but the card isn't really supposed to be used like it has been.

As for this deck being a dog to combo, there are other things it can do besides just swapping CB for Standstill. That was just an idea. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a blue deck.

[tescrin]

That's the argument. Trading our one and only true control deck will hurt diversity even if we get three or four good-stuff midrange decks back in exchange.

This pretends that there Terminus-Control wouldn't still be good, and that midrange decks that become more popular as a result won't help to stymie the Delver menace. While I'm a little out of the loop at the moment, Lands was a top tier deck (still is?) and does just fine as a true control deck. It's not counterspells, but it has been a definite force in legacy for the last couple of years, if not counting the days of Landstill, 43 lands, or what have you.

Fact is, Terminus is brutal. Countertop is brutal. I'd be fine with either one going. That's not to say I'm on another hiatus because of the meta (it's pure coincidence that I've just run out of time at the moment) but it is to say that it is the most obnoxious matchup for playing non-shardless anything. Spend one mana wrong and you lose. Now.. you can say the same about Sneak/Show and Reanimator; but at least you lose in a timely fashion. At least you aren't thinking "maybe if I top deck..." and playing to outs that rarely come true.

That's just IMO. Not saying it's truly OP. I'll let you guys argue about that. But I am saying that your last sentence is total bunk. You assume it will not only go out of existence because it will not be the current optimized version, but you're telling me that Lands and aggro-Loam aren't control. You're telling me that Jund, just because it plays like midrange, isn't a deck that is completely based on grinding out CA here and there.

To you that may not be control because you think control is Counterspells. But it's not. It's just not. Control is CA based, grindy long-form games. Those midrange decks that run Bob, Lily, and similar, are not playing those to win *now.* They're playing to win later. That's what a control deck is. Jund, IMO, is a quintissential non-blue Control deck. It runs removal for everything. Hand destruction. Generally has a slow clock at only 16 dudes, little to no searching, etc. It runs PFire for god's sake. If you're really telling me that Pfire-Liliana-Bob decks aren't control, I can't help you. Those are control cards; they just don't play like *blue* control.

This midrange distinction is made for Maverick (virtually no CA), Bant (little to no CA), etc.. Decks that are about beating Tempo by going big, but not truly controlling the game via CA. Midrange, f.e., beats Eldrazi by going bigger. Control will tend to beat them via CA.


I get that this will probably be in someone's sig and they'll be like "LOL this guy things jund is a control deck, what a loser" but I'm not stressed about it. You're worried about UW.obnoxious_dec being not a thing. You don't have to worry about that. Not only will there still be control decks, IMO. But there will be *obnoxious UW* control decks. Forever. Plow is one of the best cards in the game. Blue is the best color. That combination of "best removal" + "best color" isn't going to go away.

[iatee]

Eh, last event I went to had Nic Fit player going to time every round, a top was involved.

[Crimhead]

There is no rule that says there must be one in the format.

Obviously. But not having such a deck hurts diversity. We have combo, aggro (thank you Eldrazis) tempo, midrange, & prison decks; it would be a shame to lose our control deck. I don't mind if it gets weakened, but it would be a shame to lose it altogether.

It's not about guessing WotC's rules - it's about how much of a meta share is too much for one deck.

I don't really want the Legacy to devolve into a format where every non-combo deck is a midrange jerk off like in Modern...

This is exactly my feeling, although this is Legacy, so it's more a matter of every non-combo deck being a midrange or tempo jerk-off.

Other people I think would be fine with this as long as they can distinguish more aggressive Midrange (like Maverick) from more controlling midrange (like Blade or BUG).

While I'm a little out of the loop at the moment, Lands was a top tier deck (still is?) and does just fine as a true control deck. It's not counterspells, but it has been a definite force in legacy for the last couple of years...

...To you that may not be control because you think control is Counterspells. But it's not. It's just not.

1. RUG Lands is a control deck, but RGCL has enough potential for a fast 20/20 that it can only be called a combo/control deck, which is not the same as a more dedicated defensive deck.
2. The control elements in Lands are largely proactive, making it a control deck of the prison variety. Miracles is a reactive control deck. This distinction is as old as Stasis, and I have no idea why people here want to pretend it doesn't exist.

I get that this will probably be in someone's sig and they'll be like "LOL this guy things jund is a control deck, what a loser" but I'm not stressed about it.

The definition of 'control' is up for debate. On the extreme end Fox seems to think anything running Tundra is a priory a control deck!

I suppose if you are playing an aggressive deck, you'll always be the beatdown vs Miracles and Blade alike. Try playing a deck like RUG Lands, and suddenly those decks are night and day...

I also think the assertion that Miracles doesn't present threats early in the game is untrue as well, or at least subjective. T1 Top, T2 CB might as well be a Progenitus against some decks. An early Clique backed with enough permission can win the game out of nowhere...

Let me put it to you this way:

Playing Lands against Miracles (without Mentors) I will typically board out things like Mazes, Tabernacle, and Punishing Fires. This is the only non-combo deck where I can do this - which should speak volumes about the relatively passive nature of Miracles. Every other deck just peppers me with threats (unless, of course, I cut their mana off first).

Vs a Blade deck, those cards are all-stars and stay in. Playing against Blade feels more like playing against Delver than it does like playing against Miracles. If you don't believe me, try sleeving up a truly grindy deck with very few threats (like Enchantress or Lands), and then tell me (Mentorless) Miracles is subjectively as threatening as aggro-control like BUG, D&T, Blade, etc.

[Jain_Mor]

...

What about..

Miracles...

..with

..mentor?

Do those increasingly popular builds ruin your fantasy of the blue hard control deck you think this format needs? :P

[Crimhead]

...

What about..

Miracles...

..with

..mentor?

Do those increasingly popular builds ruin your fantasy of the blue hard control deck you think this format needs? :P

No.

The thing is that Mentorless lists still exist and are still tier one, and is still the "blue hard control deck" that I think this format benefits from Who ever said "needs"? Kindly stuff that straw man up your straw-butt.

The fact that other lists run Mentor has no bearing on this, but a ban that hits Mentor Miracles will also hit Mentorless buids.

Obviously there is no exact division between hard control and aggro-control - this is gradable. But even Mentor lists tend to run fewer threats than Blade or Shardless.

[Jain_Mor]

I mean my tongue was placed firmly out of cheek :P so you can take that straw out of my butt and feed it to a horse or something.

Obviously the mentor main, mentor sideboard and mentorless builds all benifet from each other existing because it makes opponents hedge their sideboard/answers/play style, so it's unlikely they would homogenise.

But if, hypothetically speaking, mentor lists became the vast majority of the builds, you would be a sad panda because the hard blue control deck you think this format benifets from would be gone?

I find that very interesting. Mentor has been the tipping point for me regarding my opinion of miracles in the format, as it's advent has pushed the deck to become oppressive over an even wider variety decks than it previously was.

So my point is that you can't ignore the mentor builds when you talk about the deck, they feed off of each other. Or rather, if something needs to be done because the mentor builds are bit too rediculous for the format, then tough straw for the mentorless builds, they are part of the problem too.

[Crimhead]

I mean my tongue was placed firmly out of cheek :P so you can take that straw out of my butt and feed it to a horse or something.

Okay, sorry. It's been a frustrating topic when I make an effort to discuss differences between hard control vs aggro-control, or prison control vs reactive control, and get sarcastic oversimplified garbage in return.

I find that very interesting. Mentor has been the tipping point for me regarding my opinion of miracles in the format, as it's advent has pushed the deck to become oppressive over an even wider variety decks than it previously was.

So my point is that you can't ignore the mentor builds when you talk about the deck, they feed off of each other. Or rather, if something needs to be done because the mentor builds are bit too rediculous for the format, then tough straw for the mentorless builds, they are part of the problem too.

Yes.

I mean, if Miracles gets too ridiculous something needs to give wether Mentor is in the picture or not. What I'm saying is:

1. The more Miracles list are not running these (and the more agressive the formats other most defensive decks can be), the bigger a meta share Miracles can have.
2. If Miracles gets a ban, it is better to weaken the deck than to kill it; and better to minimise splash damage to other established decks. Assuming of course that the such a ban will still effectively rebalance the meta.

Basically, if a deck is only just powerful enough that something probably should be banned, but that deck is the formats only aggro/combo/control/whatever deck, WotC should be less inclined to ban at all, and be careful that any ban they do make preserves a weaker version of essentially the same deck if possible.

But if, hypothetically speaking, mentor lists became the vast majority of the builds, you would be a sad panda because the hard blue control deck you think this format benifets from would be gone?

Yes.

Mentor lists seem to run about six threats, and they can still be Les aggressive than BUG or Blade (especially lists with only two Mentors). But Mentor already makes me sad because it's already taken a bite out of hard control.

WotC loves creatures, and they can't support any archetype these days by any means other than creatures it seems. They support spell based decks by printing things like Pyromancy, Mentor, Thing In the Ice. They support Enchantment decks with... enchantments which turn sideways. It does make me sad.

Edit - not sad in the sense that it prevents me from being happy! Only when I think about the direction design has taken (and the impact it has and will have on Legacy) it makes me less happy than I would be if I thought design were going in a better direction. :)

[Sidneyious]

Okay, sorry. It's been a frustrating topic when I make an effort to discuss differences between hard control vs aggro-control, or prison control vs reactive control, and get sarcastic oversimplified garbage in return.

Yes.

I mean, if Miracles gets too ridiculous something needs to give wether Mentor is in the picture or not. What I'm saying is:

1. The more Miracles list are not running these (and the more agressive the formats other most defensive decks can be), the bigger a meta share Miracles can have.
2. If Miracles gets a ban, it is better to weaken the deck than to kill it; and better to minimise splash damage to other established decks. Assuming of course that the such a ban will still effectively rebalance the meta.

Basically, if a deck is only just powerful enough that something probably should be banned, but that deck is the formats only aggro/combo/control/whatever deck, WotC should be less inclined to ban at all, and be careful that any ban they do make preserves a weaker version of essentially the same deck if possible.

Yes.

Mentor lists seem to run about six threats, and they can still be Les aggressive than BUG or Blade (especially lists with only two Mentors). But Mentor already makes me sad because it's already taken a bite out of hard control.

WotC loves creatures, and they can't support any archetype these days by any means other than creatures it seems. They support spell based decks by printing things like Pyromancy, Mentor, Thing In the Ice. They support Enchantment decks with... enchantments which turn sideways. It does make me sad.

Edit - not sad in the sense that it prevents me from being happy! Only when I think about the direction design has taken (and the impact it has and will have on Legacy) it makes me less happy than I would be if I thought design were going in a better direction. :)

I'd like to point to the creatures comment.

If you look at all the mtg cards that are good that see play you will see very few.

Take A/B for example, some of the best non creature spells ever printed are in them sets and o er the years we get a few new good spells and more creatures that see play.

Will we ever see a creature black lotus? No but the effect is near as good which makes it playable.

Wotc hates combo decks the most.
http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=ST

Standard as it has been the last few years has been slowly eliminating combo from existing.

Just look at the bans from pauper to modern for combo, all but gone. Creature combos are the thing much like in ygo now and I feel wotc is pushing for that because they didn't make a creature as good as the p9 in the original sets.

[Lemnear]

Will we ever see a creature black lotus? No but the effect is near as good which makes it playable.

The Black Lotus for creature decks was printed a decade ago and makes creatures uncounterable while giving them Flash in addition

[Sidneyious]

I said a creature black lotus, not a black lotus for creature decks.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Lemnear]

I said a creature black lotus, not a black lotus for creature decks.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

like this?

[Hopo]

like this?

There's also a certain lhurgoyf around.

[wcm8]

like this?

m

Eh, I'd argue that Birds of Paradise (and to some extent, Deathrite Shaman) are closer to being Lotus-esque in terms of providing mana.

But then there's also Aether Vial, that is functionally similar to a repeatable Black Lotus with a sort of 'Suspend' on ROI.

But anyways this is getting away from the point being made, basically that in A/B/U, there's really not many creatures that are still competitive by today's Standards. The only ones that come to mind are the aforementioned Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves (in a niche deck), Lord of Atlantis, Goblin King *occasionally* sees fringe play in some Gobbo lists.. And then? Nothing comes to mind.

[Kagehisa]

Lemnear is right.

Turn 1 land + mana dork #1
Turn 2 Lotus Cobra + fetchland (landfall x1, don't sac) + mana dork #2
Turn 3 fetchland (landfall x1), sacrifice both fetchlands (landfall x2)
Tap 3 lands and the 2 mana dorks + the 3 landfall triggers = 8 mana on turn 3.

Lotus Cobra gives you 3 mana turn 3. It's not even Xmas land...