Thanks for the suggestions! I ended up making a few edits to the list and it's running a little smoother now, I'll hopefully get to put it to the test this weekOriginally Posted by Lormador
-1 Expedition Map
-1 Show and Tell
-1 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Seat of the Synod
-1 World Breaker to SB
+2 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Repeal
+1 Forest (don't currently have a 3rd Tropical Island)
+1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion from SB
I don't have a Tabernacle, it's on the short list of cards I'd like to acquire, but unfortunately that short list is still a couple thousand dollars
I've found most people aren't interested in trading their Tabernacles if Power isn't involved and I sold the pieces of power I had a few years ago when I graduated college and needed to relocate for work... it was a good idea at the time
Yeah, I think the Tabernacle problem is that most players who have one also already have everything else in Legacy, such that even a playset of NM Revised Underground Seas offered in trade wouldn't tempt them at all. I despaired of ever acquiring one myself, but after making a spreadsheet of all the Modern chaff and scruffy castoff chunks of unplayed decks in my collection, I found that the value added up really quickly and I did manage to trade a binder of stuff (including the binder itself, lol) to a shop for a Tabernacle. A store would be thrilled to make a deal like that, but no player would dream of touching it.
Careful you don't get choked on green mana. I run one basic Forest for 3 basics total, and I think about cutting it all the time due to the mana problems it occasionally causes, which may be worse than the Wasteland problems that it solves. Folks so rarely aim their land hate at my colored sources anyway, and they often get punished for it when they do because I very often sandbag a colored source. Even when I'd love to play out that colored source, playing colorless Cloudposts, Vesuvas, and Glimmerposts is so important that I rarely have a land drop to spend on a luxurious second colored source. Running colorless mana is really taxing, even moreso than running a 3 color deck because there is no overlap. I might even run 4 Tropical Island and 1 Breeding Pool in the deck, as I think the Pool might actually not be that bad here.
The question to my mind is whether we still want old Emrakul once the new one comes out. If it's true that games are universally, or near-universally, won when she is cast... a much cheaper, reliable win condition would speed our deck up considerably and be pretty big game, I think.
Warping Wail is a meta call card. Mostly for dealing with Grixis, Elves, and sneaky show. If you never see those three archetypes, then no reason to feel bad for cutting warping wail.
Best cards to beat Lands are needle and show and tell, as you well know. But also timing on when to bog them is clutch. If you run repeal as well, the matchup should be verging on a bye.
Nothing wrong with 4 basics. I've run upto 5 in the past in U/G builds. I would suggest running a 4th crop rotation, since with so many basics, mana fixing can get odd.
Especially with Trinket mage, 1 candelabra is plenty. You could also run Artificer's Intuition if you really want it more often and drop the trinket mages for more artifacts in general. Artificer's Intuition also facilitates Emrakul 2.
For lands and Miracles here's my play advice:
Lands - Just focus on getting basics and timing an appropriate bog to sweep their leg. Even if they save their loam with a thicket, you have near-infinite time against them if you play save with mana. Remember vesuva'd basics aren't waste-able. You can undo rishadan port's with candelabra, and they have near-no answer to repeal on their 20/20.
Miracles - This matchup is not as simple as many people (myself included in the past) imply. The huge focus is on landing an expedition map or Top before counterbalance hits, then get a titan and cavern it into play. Cavern is everything in this matchup unless you are simply drawing a ton of mana and have eldrazis. Also key to remember is that there are two different versions of Miracles Legendary Miracles, which runs low Mentors main/sb with venser/clique and low snapcasters, which can deal with cavern via venser, but is a slower build. And the Mentor build, which has 4 mentors in the 75, many main, relies on snapcasters, and is the more dangerous build of the two.
What is the new graveyard mechanic?
I conflated emrakuls graveyard cast reduction with emergence inadvertently.
ah. well to answer the question. I think courser will go up in price, even if only slightly. I think Grapple with the Past is a huge card now, for both U/g and mono green. Grapple + Trinket Mage is essentially an on-sligh grind deck.
I tested probe out for added sorceries, and it was tragically weak. I'm still seeking out other sorceries that aren't show and tell, but are low enough mana to merit running. Stirrings was always "ok" at this, but it still falters in getting titan/show combo.
I tested Probe too, in fact I believe that deck of yours was my starting point Rock. I don't think they were too terrible given that the blue count was raised high enough to support Force of Will out of the sideboard. I did cut them eventually, and I cut those Forces for more powerful counterspells that cost mana, partly because my meta doesn't need me to run such general cards. I can predict it accurately enough to use more focused cards, there just aren't that many players in Beijing. Those that are here often are on 1-2 decks all the time.
I think running really any sorceries that cost colored mana comes at a pretty high cost, that being the necessity to play out a second colored source if I want to keep Crop Rotation mana open at all times (or if I want to just use Crop Rotation so as to cast an Eldrazi on my next turn). Generally my plan with this deck is to use one Tropical Island for my reactive stuff, using the colorless mana to Top or crack Maps until I have enough juice to start laying the I Win cards.
I'm sure Rock and friends have like 80 different ways to win that can involve all sorts of land configurations, but for my simple and noobish stylings this basic plan works pretty well.
i'm testing with ponder.
Mindrakul cannot replace emrakul (uncounterable time walk with anihilator 6)... and i've run into situations where she wasn't too helpful. When you cannot influence the opponent's overwhelming board state and you lose in their next turn. happened to me against goblins for example.
I tested New Emrakul in my build too, just in exchange for Ugin, without any other canges to make it cheaper.
I'm far less enthusiastic: I didn't lose a game where i cast New Emrakul either, but that's not the way to look at it. While testing it, i cast it just ~5 times, i cast Ulamog and Old Emrakul a lot more often - and just one time i cast it, i actually needed this effect to win, all the other times it didn't matter which Eldrazi i would cast. And these usually win the game too (in this timeframe i lost just once after casting Ulamog, and in that situation it was still the better play than new Emrakul).
I never searched up New Emrakul as my first option, that was always one of the other two, sometimes it didn't really matter, but sometimes a different Eldrazi was clearly the better option. There are a lot of situations where New Emrakul just wouldn't do enough.
The card is powerful because it attacks on a different angle than the other payoffs and could win in situations where nothing else can, but situations where it doesn't win while another Eldrazi does are more common. So i'm pretty sure the question won't be if New Emrakul can replace Ulamog or Old Emrakul, both cards are more important. The question will be if you should run it alongside these two, and maybe replace Ugin or Kozilek or whatever else you are running as additional payoffs.
I haven't tried Song of the Dryads yet but I have to admit it sounds pretty good to have decent removal in U/G. Has anybody given any thought to the new Imprisoned in the Moon card from Eldritch moon as a replacement for it since it is blue to pitch to force of will? I suppose there are a few enchantment and artifacts it doesn't help us deal with but we do have krosan grip out of the sideboard, counterspells, and repeal for that.
With the new emrakul has anybody tried playing Lignify as a creature removal spell? It costs one less than Song of the Dryads and Imprisoned in the Moon, which could be quite relevant. Being able to cast it on turn 3 with mana up to pay for daze would be huge against delver or infect decks. RUG delver, infect and moggcatcher are the toughest matchups for me in my meta, so having a removal spell they can't interact with easily would do wonders. Repeal only goes so far since they can just recast their threat. Since Lignify is tribal that would also reduce the cost of the new emrakul by 2 if it gets countered or destroyed. However, on the flipside it makes tarmogoyf bigger (likely by 2 power). I have been using relic of progenitus against goyf though and it's been pretty effective.
I started to tackle with a monoG "lands" build (maybe GW for knight and SB options or splash another color?? - don’t know yet): tracker + exploration + loam + grapple + mindrakul. Loam powers up mindrakul very quickly. Grapple makes loam feasible because we can consistently fetch our creatures from the graveyard without including complicated mechanics. World breaker is also very nice as he can just fetch himself out of the graveyard. And of course tracker is a huge HUGE card advantage engine. Combined with exploration + loam he's online very fast!
Any thoughts?
I think this deck struggles worse against combo than any other variant, but it likely fine in the fair match up. Would it make sense to also run splendid reclamation and perhaps courser of Kruphix to get even more value out of land drops and help you decide on whether or not to dredge a loam pending your top deck? Maybe the ladder point is less relevant since you're likely running top
That looks in some ways similar to my build, with even more focus on the graveyard. What i learned while building my deck:
1. You need a way to beat combo. Warping Wail and Crop Rotation can stop them for a while, but not always long enough for your engine to really start running, especially when you can't really tap out during your turn. That's why i play Dark Depths and use that as my main win condition against combo. That should work for you too, it needs early acceleration to be really good, Exploration should do the job. Especially if you include Knight, i would always play Depths, but probably even without it. (In some way i compare Dark Depths in the Gx lists to Show&Tell in the UG lists, both have the similar purpose to be a faster win condition when you really need one.)
2. You also need a way to stabilize fast enough against Delver or similar decks, the engine alone isn't fast enough usually. With Loam and without any splash i think Moment's Peace might be the best choice for you.
Other thoughts on splashs:
Red could probably work as a splash with Loam. Punishing Fire is an option, and Kozileks Return too. That should stop most aggressive decks.
I think koz return is too slow and the pfire engine convolutes the waters of our deck too much. I think speed is key. I have been looking into GR Post with 3 sneak mb and 3-4 pyroblast sb and it feels very strong. Amulet of vigor is something I would like to give a shot here soon but in the meantime, with all the chalice decks on mtgo (where I play this deck) I want a mb answer other than ulamog so I may go towards adding a World breaker or find room for rec sage mb.
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
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I never tried PFire, and wasn't happy with a red splash for Kozileks Return in my deck, so maybe you are right. But it might work better in a Loam engine.
Rec Sage maindeck (if you play GSZ) could become necessary if more Miracles decks play Blood Moon or Back to Basics in the maindeck, i don't think i want it just against Chalice. World Breaker is imo too slow as an answer - from my limited testing with that card it seemed like i always had the mana to go for Ulamog when i had the mana for World Breaker. It might be good in a deck with Grapple and/or Loam, just because it can return itself from the graveyard, but i don't think it's really good enough otherwise.
With my deck i'm very happy with Engineered Explosives in the maindeck, but i'm playing 3 colors and have Mox Diamonds. Still, for me that card is the best answer to many different problems, and if it wasn't bad against some common sideboard hate (Needle, Null Rod) i would probably play even more in the board.
@ mykatdied Good point. That’s why I was thinking of dedicating the entire board to the combo match-ups or just splash blue for counter magic? Actually this is the first time I’m considering cutting top completely and rely solely on the tracker / loam engine to get the cards I need. Kruphix may not be a bad idea since it can be fetched with grapple and does give a nice bonus. I’ve tried Splendid but I think it isn’t worth the slot here because loam and grapple fetch lands from the GY. Maybe it would be nice to run reclamation sage main and free up additional space in the board for combo hate or just go crazy with world breaker?
@ Leshrac82 I know, I saw the potential of tracker when you beat the living sh** out of me on xmageAgreed on MP since it works well with loam and is probably needed against the eldrazizs. I thought about depths combo maybe it should be in there?
I wanted to build around loam for some time now. Maybe grapple makes it possible for us to actually run it?
Here’s a very VERY rough draft:
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Maze of Ith
7 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Vesuva
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
3 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam
4 Grapple with the Past
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Primeval Titan
1 World Breaker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Warping Wail
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
P.s. I just wasted a delver (with good draws).
I've been contemplating brewing a GB version of the deck. Honestly grisly salvage + grapple + splendid reclaimation/loam.
Next I'll want to play Das Gitrog Monster! Maybe I'm just trapped in magical Christmasland.
Honestly though, black gives you access to thoughtseize / duress / therapy; which is another angle to attack combo decks, sans reanimator.
Hey, Gitrog Monster isn't that bad - it's the reason my deck exists!
But honestly, it's probably the worst card in the deck - it's amazing when i play it and has won some games, but maybe a different card would do more in the many games where i just didn't use it. I'm trying a version without it, to see if i miss it at any point, even if it hurts to cut the card from the deck that was the reason to build it in the first place.
The discard is tricky. My black splash is too light to play it, but even with a bigger splash that could be problematic. You want to be able to play these cards consistently on turn 1, and that might be difficult to do.
Tracker has a lot of potential, and imo it could work in many different 12post builds (and it already works in other decks - Maverick, NicFit and Lands all play it, and they usually dont even have that much mana to crack clues).@ Leshrac82 I know, I saw the potential of tracker when you beat the living sh** out of me on xmage
I don't really know why other mono-green 12post builds don't want the depths combo any more. UG doesn't need it, Show&Tell does the same job. In RG you could maybe play SneakAttack, but everything else doesn't have an "i win"-button against decks that just usually beat us before we can ramp into Eldrazi.
After seeing your list i'm sure you want Depths, you even play Mox Diamonds too - that can speed up the combo, and is otherwise a good way to get rid of Depths when you don't want it. With the right draw you could kill on Turn 3, and you will have draws that can kill on Turn 4 relatively often. That's just great against decks that can't interact with that. Just use it carefully against decks that can answer it.
Last edited by Leshrac82; 07-19-2016 at 07:24 PM.
Leshrac82, I tried the list you sent me at my local weekly Legacy tournament last week, and didn't do so hot. I think it was a mixture of bad matchups and it being my first time piloting the deck.
Round 1 - Lost 0-2 to Esper Deathblade. True-Name + equipment proved to be an issue, as was Jace. He must've Brainstormed like 15 times in game 1.
Round 2 - Lost 0-2 to Enchantress. We don't have many ways to interact with them - or at least that's how it seemed. He basically drew his entire deck game 1 and found the Helm/RiP combo kill the turn before I was going to land Ugin to wipe his board.
Round 3 - Lost 0-2 to D&T. Like you said in our PMs back and forth, this can be a tough matchup when they draw the nuts, which he did. Twice.
Gitrog Monster seems bad when we're struggling to keep lands in play against decks like D&T. Veteran Explorer also didn't seem to do much.
Sad to hear that.
Esper Blade should be an ok matchup (i'm 4-2 against them, so not that much data). It's hard to defend against TNN (Glacial Chasm or Ugin are the only things that really work preboard), but usually they shouldn't be that fast.
Enchantress i played just twice (1-1), it seemed to be a very bad matchup and i got lucky to win it once, but i can't say much about it.
D&T i gave you my advice via PM. It's not as good as i thought at first, when i was 12-0 after 12 matches, but it should still be a good matchup overall (23-7 for me on xmage now, and 4 of those losses with a very bad sideboard strategy).
Gitrog Monster is not good against D&T for many reasons, just Karakas alone makes it bad. It only really shines in very grindy games, that's why i think about cutting it (another Tracker should work much more often and has a similar role).
For Veteran Explorer that were not the right matchups. Both D&T and Esper Blade have StP to get rid of it, that makes it not very effective. Against Enchantress it's completely useless. It's great against Eldrazi, it's good against Delver and generally against any deck that attacks on the ground and doesn't play white.
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