Colorless mana.Originally Posted by aicnelavo
Event results
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:20
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
Spells:17
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands:23
2 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:15
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Duress
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
I went 3/1 again with the above list in a recent event. That was my own misplay as I'll explain, rather than a fault with the deck.
Elves
G1 Landed an early jitte and ate his field.
G2 Another early jitte but it wasn't enough as he chained reclamation sage and glimpse into 4 more elves including sentinels and heritage druid, and craterhoof
G3 Was interesting. I played turn 1 vet into turn 2 land pass. His turn 2 ended with a DRS, heritage druid and nettle sentinel in play. I sensed the embrace of death coming next turn so out of despiration, end of his turn 2 I pathed my vet, allowing me to turn 3 drop deed and still have 1 mana. That slowed him right down. I got down good pressure shortly but he ended up dropping a dude and using natural order. I was getting ready to scoop as I discovered he didn't have a progenitus in his 75 and a craterhoof at that point wasn't enough.
2-1. If he had progenitus I would have lost. Elves is still a really, really rough matchup and I would love some advise on how to handle it.
Lands
G1 Veteran explorer>tower>zenith for scooze. Therapy his fires and eat them both. Closed out there with a scooze and a tracker.
G2 Turn 3 leige-game
G3 Turn 3 leige. I path it, and with depths, stage and loam in grave, I surgical his loam. He's got one card in hand then draws stage, then draws gamble for depths, gets through the 50/50 and I can't stop the second leige. Lessons learned in blood I suppose. Should have taken a combo peice. Asked around, got a pretty even spread on post fact advise on which was the correct surgical target at that point. I'm fairly sure now it's one of the two land, but still not sure which one. Advise welcome
1-2
A grixis bloodghast/prized amalgam, and greater gargadon. Interesting deck. He beat miracles round 1 and lost to something round 2.
G1 Scooze
G2 Scooze + surgical
Was rough for him as I specifically packed my 75 full of grave hate for combo decks.
2-0
Sneak attack
G1 he didn't see sneak attack or breach. Had a turn 2 moon though, but didn't slow me down for long enough.
G2 he went all in on a chalice for 1 with mountain>guide. Had a petal and 2 sneak attacks in hand, a breach plus some big stuff. Just needed a sol land, or any land... he never saw another mana source. Turn 4 GSZ into rec-sage, then stripped his hand with therapies. Rough. Shut me down well though. 2 surgical, 2 therapy and a veteran rotting away. My first play was turn 4. Real rough luck on his part.
2-0
Upon further reflection, I need more answers for elves. They're somewhat prominent in the meta, and are really resiliant. Progenitus is a massive problem, even if, with difficulty, I can stop the craterhoof plan.
Not sold on sorin. He's really there for miracles, but I brought him in against land. Didn't see him, didn't care. That 6 drop sideboard slot needs an answer. Contenders atm are sorin, grave titan, dromoka and sigarda. Tossing up the idea of ruric thar, because if miracles don't counter him he at a minimum deals 6. Also against combo. The kind that you can slow down a bit by ripping apart their hand, but they can still topdeck glory. Don't really think he's good enough to make the cut, but that slot is open for now.
I don't think DRS is comming back. Never missed him.
Not sold on two trackers. One is often really good, and I'm running two so that I can drop him in that mid game without having to zenith for it. Found myself siding one out a lot. Needs more testing.
Jit was main mostly for miracles, and was supposed to provide flexiblity vs a few different things. It's performance vs elves is keeping it right where it is.
Nissa is a incredible. I would encourage people to give her a run. Happy to have a discussion about her and her uses :)
In regards to the recent Meren discussion, she's been amazing in my particular build. But then I run things like driad arbor, recurring nightmare, and qasali pridemage. She's really good just past the mid game, when you've both used up your resources and it's now time to get back into the game. Basically if I need to get back non creature (usually deeds), I go looking for witness. If I need creatures and pressure, I get meren then stat recurring rhinos, or often nissa, who came down, got a forrest then died. Comes back this time for a flip that same turn
In regards to the recent canopy dicussion, I love mine. Sometimes you get it early, take a bit of damage, nothing a rhino or tusk won't fix. I found if this deck loses, it's by a landslide, and not by 2-5 health. Whereas late it's a bit of extra gas, works great with titania/titan. Basically the downside has been negligeble, and the upside can get you over that late game hump.
Colorless mana hasn't been an issue for me, however I run a non conventional land base.
Has there been any thoughts on eerie interlude?
It dodges deed, terminus, and retriggers etbs.
Might be better than displacer.
Unconventional or not, adding what is essentially a 4th color comes with some costs. Displacer has the same problem that Slaughter Games had, which a lot of people tried to run by splashing a Taiga. If you want Displacer to work you're going to need a minimum of 14 colorless sources, not including Veteran Explorer fetching up Wastes. It's not possible to do that without skimping on other colors.
Veteran Explorer is a dies trigger which means to move from the battlefield to the graveyard. Path exiles so that it never dies. This wasn't a legal play.
Run more removal. If you prevent their CA engines they're really slow to set up and you can keep their board under control as you force blocks.If he had progenitus I would have lost. Elves is still a really, really rough matchup and I would love some advise on how to handle it.
I think he meant he path'd his veteran explorer to hit the 3rd land drop from the land that path gives, not the vet trigger.
I did mean the land I get from the path, yes.
What removal stops them dropping any dude/fetching into arbor, holding priority and casting one of their natural orders into progenitos?
Are you suggesting I run some form of edict or councils judgement? Or toxic deluge for 10?
Ahh right, didn't think about the land. That would work.
If you keep their board clear Craterhoof doesn't win the game. Craterhoof with two guys is 13. They need 3 guys after the NO to really threaten you. More interaction goes a long way to keeping them off of 3 guys. Elves relies on it's CA to get to and stay at 3 creatures. A mix of discard, Teeg, Jitte, spot removal, Surgical (best used as a discard spell), and DRS (mainly to counter their own DRS) can usually get you there. That's how I handle the matchup.
DRS helps a lot, one of the reasons you're likely not seeing as much value though is that you're already at 28 mana sources because you're running 2 more lands than the typical list.
Oh, I totally get what you're saying about the crater hoof line. It's the natural order into progenitus I struggle with. What do you do there?
Teeg alone isn't enough
If you're in a meta where edicts are good and it sounds like you might be with Marit Lage and Progenitus to worry about, have you considered the new card Blessed Alliance? I know from experience that Celestial Flare is super powerful, no one ever expects the edict out of white but where Flare is too tough for this deck to cast, Alliance isn't. And it has additional upside since it can function as a mana sink.
You go for the "well this card has never been that bad for me, so I'll just hear what I want to hear" line and make me out to be the badguy for pointing out that playing bad cards to make other bad cards less bad isn't the way you want to go? Lol, whatever floats your boat man.
No, no, 1 AD as spot removal suite is fine. You don't need cheap board sweepers in your SB either.
Elves! is a deck that typically runs only 14 lands that make mana when there are no creature on the field. Without enough creatures they have a lot of trouble getting 4 mana. Also, if Toxic Deluge for 10 is what keeps you from dying then yes, by all means do so. Losing 10 life doesn't equal losing the game. Edict effects also don't necessarily get you there. As soon as they drop another creature it's useless. And they can also keep up a fetch to turn it into an Arbor in response to Edict effects. Elves! usually doesn't run Progenitus though. If it's making a resurgence it might be worth it to run Council's Judgment. Also does some splash damage vs. Miracles and Sneak & Show, so it isn't the worst card to have in a SB.
I've not considered blessed alliance. I was actually largely sarcastic about edicts. Merit comes in end of turn and killing progenitus just buys you some turns. I'm also largely concerned about the wisdom of saying kill all of elves dorks forever to keep them off 4 mana..
What do you think about something like a crop rotation effect for the karakas? Could also get the other land in a pinch. I originally ran knight of reliquary for that purpose but that's too slow. But that won't help vs progenitus.
Maybe blessed is the way to go. Judgement is good but doesn't hit leige. Other ideas anyone?
Is NO -> Progenitus really that much of a problem in your meta? Also, I'm not saying you can keep them off 4 mana forever, but you can at least put some more effort into it so you can get into a position where a Rhino and a Sigarda (or something along those lines) gets you there. Scavenging Ooze is also pretty good vs. Elves. Grows big quickly and gains you life while doing so. Don't get me wrong, Elves!'ll always be a tricky MU. I run 4 PtE, 3 Pernicious Deed and have 2 Golgari Charm in the SB and it's still somewhat of a coin toss.
I don't know if Crop Rotation is where we want to be. You should look on vs. which MUs you'd want to use it and weigh the opportunity cost of what you'd normally run in its place. If you mean to use it vs. Merit Lage, that deck also runs Wasteland + Life from the Loam. Pithing Needle on Thespian's Stage might be better.
Yes, progenitus elves is a thing here.
Karakas also helps vs reanimator / sneak decks. Worst case, get wasteland or tower, or even volraths.
Alrighty COMMUNITY CHALLENGE:
Taking into account that merit lage comes in end of turn and one shots you;
What is a card that deals both with him and progenitus? Let's see what options we have.
Terminus and Peacekeeper come to mind.
Not much else though.
Peacekeeper you say..
I like that.. Stops repeat offenders. Punishing fire is a problem, but you can't have it all..
Good, good. Other thoughts? Let's crowd source this!
Humility
Edict effects (personally I like To The Slaughter for also killing Jace)
Faster clock of our own (ie. Scapeshift or other combo plan)
Elephant Grass / Blazing Archon / Peacekeeper
Humility might be too slow @4 mana. And how (and when) do you plan to drop Blazing Archon (and have it happening fast and consistently enough)..?
Could always play our own copies of NO and run Elderscale Wurm. Lands and Elves don't have an answer (unless Elves runs Shaman of the Pack).
I don't think it's something to worry about that much. We have spot removal for Marit Lage, and Progenitus is not exactly common even in Elves at the moment.
A sub-playset of paths is all we really have for leige and progenitus is common for me at least. It really gives elves resilience.
Plus whatever we come up with here would also help with reanimator and sneak. Yay fringe benefits.
Not proud of this one, but just spitballing here:
Ensnaring bridge?
Preaching to the choir, sister.
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