I might be wrong about this, but I think this is incorrect. If your opponent is the active player (it is their turn), then they will have priority and can respond at instant speed to any triggers. So if they cast Show and Tell and put in a Sneak Attack while you put in something with a triggered ability, they can still activate the Sneak Attack before your triggers resolve and before you can cast Grip. But if they make the mistake of passing priority, then you can punish them and Grip their Sneak Attack in response to your triggersOriginally Posted by Zotmaster
Congrats on the finish! I like the focused structure of your list; lots of four-ofs plus duplicates of the variable non-creature, non-land inclusions (Ugin, EE, Candles). Like someone before me said, your deck seems all about business.
One thing that I overlooked when I first read your list was the absence of any Expedition Maps. Did you ever miss them at all? I have a love/hate relationship with Map. It always feels clunky and frequently appears to be the weakest card in the deck. But other times, it can guarantee powerful plays without the sacrifice risk of Crop Rotation: either grabbing Cavern and forcing Titan through, or getting Eye to close out the game. You didn't need them to be successful, so maybe I will venture a build without them.
Also, I support your decision to swap Swan Songs with more Flusterstorms, as I've always thought Fluster was the better of the one-mana counters. Song hits a wider variety of threats, but Fluster has a more unique effect and is more effective at its role as a counter. It's difficulty to be countered makes it special, plus it is a trump card against Storm win conditions.
First off, decent list!
Second, 6 fetches with 5 targets. Really need that much shuffling? Does it seem to help you more than take away from a useable land slot?
I think you guys are forgetting the reason why you use Krosan Grip. It has Split Second so Sneak Attack activation and Omniscience ability doesn't work as long as Krosan Grip is in the stack. This is the other reason I like using Trickbind against Sneak Attack, locks out that activation ability for that turn. All of this would be correct if you were using something like Stifle or Disenchant. The priority would be passed to them and they can respond.I might be wrong about this, but I think this is incorrect. If your opponent is the active player (it is their turn), then they will have priority and can respond at instant speed to any triggers. So if they cast Show and Tell and put in a Sneak Attack while you put in something with a triggered ability, they can still activate the Sneak Attack before your triggers resolve and before you can cast Grip. But if they make the mistake of passing priority, then you can punish them and Grip their Sneak Attack in response to your triggers
Actually I think the original poster was correct in this case. We're talking specifically about the line Show and Tell --> Sneak Attack, activate (against K-grip).
In this situation the caster of Show and Tell is indeed the active player and is free to put abilities and spells on to the stack. It's similar to Dredge flipping Narcomeba and Cabal Therapy off of a Careful Study, and despite my having Swords to Plowshares in hand there's no chance to get rid of the Narco before it gets sacrificed to the Therapy if my opponent does the priority thing correctly.
The one trick I picked up from reading this mammoth thread was putting in a Glimmerpost (or Titan, or even Bojuka Bog) off of the SnT. This puts a trigger on the stack right off, and if I say "Glimmerpost Trigger" and opponent responds "OK" I get to answer "Krosan Grip on your Sneak Attack." This won't get the best players, but it might help in the Swiss.
It's absolutely effective against Omniscience + Emrakul/Enter the Infinite, giving us a chance to cast K-grip without the opponent getting priority with an empty stack during a main phase.
Went undefeated at my weekly legacy event with a variant of the 9th place Classic list from last week using this list:
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [ST] Island (1)
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [EMN] Nephalia Academy
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End
1 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [DDN] Repeal
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [MMA] Faerie Macabre
I miss having 4 show and tell, and the return to it feels extremely strong. I maindecked the neph academy since I loath rng hymns and the top-synergy is paramount. Neph academy means counters are worth holding onto again instead of hiding and then only having one answer or getting blown out by random split second cards. All in all, the deck felt extremely solid with this build. Much harder to play since needle and map are huge crutches and with good reason, but can be played around with optimal play, which this build requires.
Negative, my friend. You do get priority. The nonactive player gets priority whenever they have a spell or ability on the stack - including these ETB triggers I'm talking about - when the active player attempts to change the step, or when the opponent passes priority. This is why triggers are so vitally important against Show and Tell decks: especially against Omni, where otherwise they could just Cunning Wish for something like Trickbind. This way you don't have to worry about your opponent making a mistake: you can just pre-emptively take care of the problematic card.I might be wrong about this, but I think this is incorrect. If your opponent is the active player (it is their turn), then they will have priority and can respond at instant speed to any triggers. So if they cast Show and Tell and put in a Sneak Attack while you put in something with a triggered ability, they can still activate the Sneak Attack before your triggers resolve and before you can cast Grip. But if they make the mistake of passing priority, then you can punish them and Grip their Sneak Attack in response to your triggers
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Well, I never knew that your own triggers would give you priority. For some reason I thought that the player whose turn it is always got priority. I feel dumb for the noobish understanding, but am much happier that the rules work out in our favor. Thanks for the clarification!
I believe the active player gets priority before you even if you put a trigger on the stack.
116.2a Triggered abilities can trigger at any time, including while a spell is being cast, an ability is being activated, or a spell or ability is resolving. (See rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”) However, nothing actually happens at the time an ability triggers. Each time a player would receive priority, each ability that has triggered but hasn’t yet been put on the stack is put on the stack. See rule 116.5.
This basically says that triggered abilities do not affect who receives priority. Rather, triggered abilities go onto the stack based on APNAP the next a player would receive priority.
Since the active player just finished casting the show and tell, he would receive priority based on:
116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
Basically, this means that if the active player casts show and tell, puts in a sneak attack and you put in a glimmerpost (or other etb permanent), they get priority. In the process of getting priority, your glimmerpost trigger goes onto the stack. If they let you resolve the glimmerpost trigger, they implicitly pass priority and you have a chance to get them; otherwise, they can put a sneak trigger on the stack then pass priority.
This is what a both an OmniTell player and a judge explained to me in a match against that deck.
a.k.a. Eddy Viscosity
I'm always surprised how bad legacy players are sometimes at understanding the rules, especially trigers and priorities, If an oponent casts show and tell and you put glimmerpost on the battlefield and they put a permanent they retain the piority and it's their choice if they will pass the priority and let you resolve your trigger or they will continue casting spells, activating abilities at instant speed ofcourse (sorcery spead would mean they would need to pass the priority) untill they finally pass the priority. So they could drop sneak attack off show and tell, you drop glimmerpost, your trigger goes on stack but you don't get priority and they Will have to eaither let your triger resolve by passing the priority (thereby endagering potnetially getting gripped) or they could chose to add (not resolve!) to the stack variety of instants/activated abilites (or trigered abilities inbetwen if they manage it somehow). Resolving these spells, activated/triggered abilites would then requiere passing priorities between each party. Once both parties pass priority without additional action inbetween the spell/ability will resolve.
Hello again everyone
I wanted to share my super test-stage GR list along with some of my notes that I've been playing around with. This has mostly been just a thought project between my buddy and I to force a bunch of mechanics into 12post and abuse new Emrakul... it needs a lot of tweaking but we're getting together tomorrow to play around with it
As a disclaimer, neither of us are super great at brewing competitively
Lands (26):
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Taiga
2 Grove of the Burnwillows (if these both come out, Glacial Chasm/4th Foothills or 2 Maze of Ith)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Forest
1 Mountain
Creatures (11):
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
4 Primeval Titan
3 Thought-Knot Seer (might drop all 3)
Spells (19):
4 Crop Rotation
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Ancient Stirring (4 if Oath is dropped)
2 Oath of Nissa
3 Stranglehold (these become 3 Ugin's Nexus if Oath is dropped)
2 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Punishing Fire (drop w/Grove for 2 GSZ)
Artifacts (5):
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Notes:
So as it stands right now, the deck is 63 cards.
I really want to run TKS, but wanting to do something and having it actually be a good decision aren't always the same thing, that immediately gets the deck to 60
The biggest change that I think can be made right off the bat is dropping the Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing Fire combo. I honestly don't know how powerful this combo is in Legacy; I haven't seen it much myself but I know it exists and since the colors are GR, I wanted to try it out. If those 6 cards come out, I would add a 4th Fetch and Chasm along with 2 GSZ leaving space for 2 more cards in the deck
The second major-ish switcheroo could be dropping 2 Oath of Nissa and turning them into 2 Ancient Stirrings, then dropping Stranglehold for Ugin's Nexus.
A few things with this: I like Oath of Nissa as an easy dump into making Emmy smaller (currently running 6 card types + Eye of Ugin), it also fetches up creatures, lands and Ugin
However: It doesn't grab the vital combo piece needed to make Emrakul more fun, Stranglehold. Ancient Stirrings on the other hand, can grab Ugin's Nexus which effectively does the same thing, but is now semi-tutorable thanks to being colorless.
Bonfire of the Damned isn't a totally necessary card, but at times it could potentially just be game with Candelabra in play
I realize I'm trying to do a lot with the deck, so I would appreciate your guys' input on trimming some fat. Maybe this won't be Top 8ing any major tournaments, but in my opinion it has potential to be a lot of fun, and I know GR is something this group has been kicking around for a few months.
No need for a paragraph. Just reference 601.2h "Once the steps described in 601.2a–g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell’s controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority."I'm always surprised how bad legacy players are sometimes at understanding the rules, especially trigers and priorities, If an oponent casts show and tell and you put glimmerpost on the battlefield and they put a permanent they retain the piority and it's their choice if they will pass the priority and let you resolve your trigger or they will continue casting spells, activating abilities at instant speed ofcourse (sorcery spead would mean they would need to pass the priority) untill they finally pass the priority. So they could drop sneak attack off show and tell, you drop glimmerpost, your trigger goes on stack but you don't get priority and they Will have to eaither let your triger resolve by passing the priority (thereby endagering potnetially getting gripped) or they could chose to add (not resolve!) to the stack variety of instants/activated abilites (or trigered abilities inbetwen if they manage it somehow). Resolving these spells, activated/triggered abilites would then requiere passing priorities between each party. Once both parties pass priority without additional action inbetween the spell/ability will resolve.
Further explained, in 116.3c "If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward."
Mr Miagi, I think you are missing the point, which is that if you cast a spell or activate an ability and you are not the active player, you have priority before your opponent (the active player). It is this opportunity which people were trying to use triggers to maintain priority for Krosan grip with a glimmerpost/titan after a show and tell'd omniscience. This sadly does not work, except to prevent sorcery affects, which was already mentioned multiple times. Running in here insulting people and then being oblivious of the argument only exhibits your ignorance.
I apologize for the bad information. I asked two different judges in my LGS, both of whom told me that you could Grip first. I then posted about it. After seeing replies here, I then went to magicjudges.org, who have confirmed it does not, in fact, work the way I thought. Again, sorry about that.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
As of right now, I have 1 board slot in my lastest development build of Gw.
Someone suggested I try 1 splendid reclaimation to hedge again Wastelands. I'm really on the fence about it. I could contemplate trying it, but I'm not even sure if it's worth it even with 4 fetches/crop rotations. Has anyone tried using this new card yet?
I'd have to see the build to give an informed decision.
I like Splendid Reclamation for non-blue variants though, but with some form of above outside of "land destruction counter" ala zuran orb/claws of gix/harrow type affects
I want to thank you. At least now we know what the f*** is going on
Last night my fiance ran the gw post list just with a few edits. Still missing new emrakul, but we added grapple with the past over explore and it was an amazing addition. Also added 2 Splendid Reclamation to the board. She used it against esper deathblade and it was amazing for her between wastelands firing off, liliana ticking up she was able to get a ton of value from it. She was 6-0 in games until infect, which is a tough match up anyway and he had close to perfect draws and disruption. Grapple and splendid reclamation are definitely amazing, we can't wait to test new emrakul though!
I was contemplating with Grapples this week. How many were you playing? I think I could easily support two. My two flex slots currently have 1 Courser of Kruphix* and 1 Candelbra.
*I'm still not 100% sure how easily I can support "GG" with the manabase.
Running two could make for an easy swap in/out my two sideboard rest in peace.
Never missed the maps. Haven't tested them for over 3-4 months now, it was my 1st card I dropped from the core list. They are so darn slow and clunky imo for U/G build play style. Mono green or colorless they are a must imo since a more aggro style deck. If running 25-26 lands, I would use them most likely and this is usually with trinket type builds. And abrupt decay is a thing...Outside of candle and EE. Nothing in my deck list to decay which I loved. Map was always a target in tourneys before and really never got much benefit from it anyway. Now for decks with MB decay its 4 dead cards in their deck for them...and most won't SB out since think so many targets for it. Usually candles out SB too for me, so 4 cards for 2 EE that I play and blow instant with priority. So 4 dead cards...I might be wrong about this, but I think this is incorrect. If your opponent is the active player (it is their turn), then they will have priority and can respond at instant speed to any triggers. So if they cast Show and Tell and put in a Sneak Attack while you put in something with a triggered ability, they can still activate the Sneak Attack before your triggers resolve and before you can cast Grip. But if they make the mistake of passing priority, then you can punish them and Grip their Sneak Attack in response to your triggers
One thing that I overlooked when I first read your list was the absence of any Expedition Maps. Did you ever miss them at all? I have a love/hate relationship with Map. It always feels clunky and frequently appears to be the weakest card in the deck. But other times, it can guarantee powerful plays without the sacrifice risk of Crop Rotation: either grabbing Cavern and forcing Titan through, or getting Eye to close out the game. You didn't need them to be successful, so maybe I will venture a build without them.
The needles are good...but main reason in was for wastelands. With 27-28 lands MB and 4 crop rotations...I actually hope they play it. Crop in response best play, but laying another land next turn while they slowed themselves a turn I'm always fine with. With that said, you need to protect your posts much more as Rock stated a bit, you have to play the deck little different. EoT or during their turn, I felt I almost always had a play. Cropped for tabby, nephelia, CoS, bog like 3 times, and once for chasm or be dead. Map for 3 total, and then land to go to our hand and still need to play it, just too slow I feel for legacy. Also, your opponent sees it. They know another post or CoS or whatever could be cmon. Good legacy players know deck your playing almost as well as you...Why I love crop rotation...if they don't know my hand, element of surprise and easier to set them into a play they shouldn't of made. Getting lands was never an issue minus my one game where I couldn't buy a land to start in my hand...and when did drew the 2 vesuva (i cut down from 3 to avoid this lol). That is just bad variance, and can't get around that. Just make better with more consistency...Grapple with the past seems decent as replacement. Increase consistency...get lands back from wastelands or just get fetch back to keep spinning top. Curious anyones thoughts on it that has played it. I haven't tested it at all.
Needles I put in SB, card is a house for so many decks to slow them the few turns we need. It was SB due to the fact if I played it, it never was for wasteland as 1st target (Opposite of them MB from other builds)...just inkmoths, thespian stage, walkers, etc. Vials were always a nice needle name...but the gold star card for me "repeal" just crushes decks with it. Ports without vials just aren't that great, and you can get above their land count and take over with ease usually. So needle didn't hurt there either. Wasteland decks with graveyard recursion...have the needles, but I bring in surg extractions as well and just eliminate it. Considered removing them completely from SB with deck like Rock just didn't recently. 4 flusters and maybe 3 grips for omni and miracles seems quite good...
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