Thoughts on the new set? I am looking forward to testing Unsubstantiate and Nephalia Academy.
Don't think there's anything in this set that's gonna have any effect on legacy as a format, honestly. I don't see what I would cut from any infect list for those two cards and believe I'd be upgrading my deck.Originally Posted by Cartesian
Agreed, Infect is extremely short on colored mana sources as is, and I don't think a boomerang/remand split card would be good enough, let alone one that doesn't cantrip or bounce lands.
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I don't see anything playable in infect, I think there's a couple cards that will have an impact on other decks for sure though. Thalia will go in death and taxes and I wouldn't be surprised if the red draw three have a giant beater for RR sees some play. This feels like one of the more powerful sets in a long time.
Yea i forgot about nouveau thalia, she looks playable. That might be it. I think nic fit is experimenting with eldritch evolution but i don't see how it's better than birthing pod which is repeatable.
As far as power level goes, this block is nowhere near as powerful as original Innistrad. That set was so much fun, so much fun to draft, too.
Hey, svyelunite, would like to hear about your worcester experiences when you get the chance. Noticed you switched to straight u/g, wondering how you felt about it.
Tournament went pretty well. I'll do a recap later when I can dig out my notes. As for the U/G list, I playtested it a fair amount leading up to the event and I liked the streamlined feel, especially vs. Combo decks and Eldrazi. I would kind of like to still have the GSZ in there, but there just isn't room currently. Here's the list I played for reference.
Creatures (12)
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
Lands (19)
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Pendelhaven
Spells (29)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Become Immense
2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
2 Spell Pierce
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Crop Rotation
2 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Stonewood Invocation
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Teferi's Response
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
I was also testing out Stonewood Invocation, and while the card is powerful (and really awesome vs. Miracles) it's pretty tough to pull off against most decks. I wouldn't recommend it going forward unless you're going to play 50% Miracles probably. Probably could have used a second Pithing Needle or a Nature's Claim instead. I'm also not convinced the Blue Elemental Blast is necessary. This is another spot where a more flexible card like Sylvan Safekeeper, Spellskite, Grafdigger's Cage or Dismember might be preferable.
The MD was pretty spot on. I usually run a Flusterstorm over a Spell Pierce main, but 2 things made me switch. 1. I was worried I'd run into more Eldrazi because Opens tend to get a bigger turnout of players that don't do Legacy often (and thus have to build a deck quickly) and 2. I just got my Dazes and Spell Pierces altered and wanted to show them offThe Sylvan Library was awesome, as always, and I'm pretty sure its still the card we want (over JVP). You can debate main or side, but have 1 in your 75 for sure. The only other card I'd consider swapping for something else is the 3rd Vines. I've seen a lot of folks go down to 2 and I realize that outside of Shardless and Lands, they aren't as useful, but I still really like the card as a 3-of so you can reliably draw one even without a BS/Ponder. Your result may vary.
Obviously finishing 14th, I had a pretty good run. I think there were only 2 matchups where I would have preferred to be on the White splash version. Lands, and Punishing Maverick. Every other time, I think the current configuration was equal or preferable. As I always advocate however, do what you're comfortable with, and practice it a bunch, because nothing beats experience and familiarity with your deck in Legacy. Major edges aren't gained with "tech".
Tournament report probably will be posted tomorrow. LMK if y'all have any questions.
Thanks for the reply, your list looks like mine, except for the 4th Force instead of Corrupter. Regarding the 3rd vines slot, i am currently running Might of old Krosa; it's been nice, enabling speedier kills and letting me rely on inkmoth more, as before it was very difficult to get GGG for kicked vines+berserk. I ran it by Clay Spicklemire on reddit; he felt like a 2nd Become immense was superior in that spot, and Todd Stevens has gone that route. But i like Might, as it+ BI is a kill, whereas BI+BI is probably a no-go. Anyways, I'm running it this weekend, we'll see how it goes.Tournament went pretty well. I'll do a recap later when I can dig out my notes. As for the U/G list, I playtested it a fair amount leading up to the event and I liked the streamlined feel, especially vs. Combo decks and Eldrazi. I would kind of like to still have the GSZ in there, but there just isn't room currently. Here's the list I played for reference.
Creatures (12)
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
Lands (19)
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Pendelhaven
Spells (29)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Become Immense
2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
2 Spell Pierce
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Crop Rotation
2 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Stonewood Invocation
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Teferi's Response
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
I was also testing out Stonewood Invocation, and while the card is powerful (and really awesome vs. Miracles) it's pretty tough to pull off against most decks. I wouldn't recommend it going forward unless you're going to play 50% Miracles probably. Probably could have used a second Pithing Needle or a Nature's Claim instead. I'm also not convinced the Blue Elemental Blast is necessary. This is another spot where a more flexible card like Sylvan Safekeeper, Spellskite, Grafdigger's Cage or Dismember might be preferable.
The MD was pretty spot on. I usually run a Flusterstorm over a Spell Pierce main, but 2 things made me switch. 1. I was worried I'd run into more Eldrazi because Opens tend to get a bigger turnout of players that don't do Legacy often (and thus have to build a deck quickly) and 2. I just got my Dazes and Spell Pierces altered and wanted to show them off
Obviously finishing 14th, I had a pretty good run. I think there were only 2 matchups where I would have preferred to be on the White splash version. Lands, and Punishing Maverick. Every other time, I think the current configuration was equal or preferable. As I always advocate however, do what you're comfortable with, and practice it a bunch, because nothing beats experience and familiarity with your deck in Legacy. Major edges aren't gained with "tech".
Tournament report probably will be posted tomorrow. LMK if y'all have any questions.
Fans of white splash, I'd like to get some opinions on the inclusion of Swords to Plowshares in two postboard scenarios.
1) Mid range decks, which can be divided into
1a) Grindy midrange decks (Shardless, Jund)
Or
1b) Decks that just go bigger than us like Maverick or DNT (DNT is definitely more prison than midrange, but their games are usually won between a combination of mana denial and their larger creatures.)
2) Chalice decks with impactful creatures, think Eldrazi, MUD, or 4cLoam. The temptation to use Plow on a Knight or Metalworker is very real, but there's also a pretty good chance that the Swords just gets stranded in hand along with the Brainstorm you would typically use to shuffle it away.
Bonus question: R/G Lands matchup? To swords or not to swords?
As someone who, while personally isn't a fan of the white splash, but uses it because they need to borrow a deck, I would believe that swords is more relevant in 1b than 1a, although I haven't brought it in myself, opting to bring in rest in peace instead. For 2, I would not bring it in, instead hoping to protect a blighted agent and either chip them or go for the kill in one go. I've noticed I only really bring in my swords in against decks where they either try to go to town with one creature, or the creature is threatening to win the game on the spot. However, I don't have any fancy titles under my name, so take my word with a grain of salt if you wish :p
I play the white splash and you could make an argument for bringing it in against all of those decks. It's better than most people think against DnT (assuming there's no mom on the board). Sometimes it will just clear the way t2 for your t2 elf. It buys you time vs delver decks that are usually just trying to ride a single delver to victory.
I think I've tried it against Eldrazi, with muddy results. I've decided not to side it in, as I don't want mess with the redundancy of the deck too much as I'm already siding in k grips (and seal of primordium) and the 4th force. They also have TKS and usually will bring in thorns, on top of the chalice. I will bring it in against 4c loam though, as I've tested with it and sometimes it really play differently if it doesn't have KOTR on board and active. It hits so much stuff againt 4c loam, too, they will usually bring in Thalia's. Can't play scared, like I don't worry if they have land/land/cotv/mox diamond turn 1. If they have it, they have it. Just like sometimes we get nut draws, it's legacy, it's going to happen.
Lands? I think I may have tried it in the past, but I play Absolute Lawx2 along with Rest in Peacex2 in my board so, again, I don't want to over side. Lands isn't usually trying to set up the depths combo asap (though it happened to me at GP columbus, still kind of salty about that), they're usually trying to set up some kind of lock on the board. I don't really know what they're gameplan is against us, if I knew it was to get a quick Marit Lage then I might be more open to siding it in.
I don't bring in Swords to Plowshares for Shardless or Jund. I bring in Rest in Peace for both matchups. Yes to bringing in Swords vs. Maverick due to Ethersworn Canonist. I bring in Swords vs. DNT primarily to clear out Canonist. Decks with Chalice require me to bring in artifact destruction from the sideboard, and I also have Rest in Peace, so I bring in two RIP vs. 4C Loam but no copies of Swords. I played against MUD at the last 1K I played in and I brought in Swords there to have a fast answer for a T1 Metalworker on the draw and have more outs to something like Platinum Angel. I think the key is knowing which matchups have a creature that can lock you out. I lost a match to Miracles once because he found a Peacekeeper in Game 3 and I had no removal, so it's always important to board to counter your opponent's strategy. I don't have a lot of games against Eldrazi, but I would bring it in there unless I knew there was no Eldrazi Displacer or Endbringer in the list. Against Lands I always bring in Swords. Most Lands players I play against just try to make it a combo race, and so I like having an easy out to Marit Lage. Swords is a pretty high-value card, so I'm never unhappy to have it in the board.
Amen. Even when I get my 4th trop, I don't think I'm going to drop the white splash and lose access to swords and some other sb cards that are high impact. But it's also good against delver decks, that aren't going to lock you out, but it removes the pressure they're applying.
I think you should test out swords against 4c loam. I don't know why you bring it in against lands, but not loam, which also has the stage/depths combo and more critters to hit. And I haven't played against MUD too much, though i used to play it and i would definitely bring in the swords. Really and deck that drops a creature that you have to answer.
Because Lands plays Exploration and Manabond and lots of copies of Stage and Depths and has the Crop Rotations and Gambles to find them, making a Turn 2 or Turn 3 Marit Lage with reliable frequency. 4C Loam players are unlikely to piece together Knight, followed by Stage, followed by Depths, before they are dead. It's not even a close comparison. I don't really care about the other creatures out of 4C Loam. It's not about number of "critters to hit"; it's about getting raced. Having Swords to Plowshares is vital against a Turn 2 flying 20/20.
I agree that bringing in swords against lands if probably pretty viable. I've played against lands a decent amount online and a few times in paper, and I rarely see a t2 or t3 marit lage. Lands is not this scary fast boogeyman deck a la storm that consistently wins t2-t3, at least not in my experiences against the deck. The only issue I've had with bringing in swords against lands is when they go the slower prison/lockout style (which is pretty normal for them), and you have stp sitting there in hand and they are just taking their time setting up marit lage, in which case stp bought you one turn.
So I'm a converting Modern Infect player, and I was wondering how much different the playstyle is in Legacy. I notice that there aren't any Spellskite, so I assume that removal is harder to come by.
Deck I'm working towards: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-05-16-miracles/
The removal is absolutely there, but I'd also say that the sweepers are more prevalent (Golgari Charm, Terminus, Night of Souls' Betrayal) which makes Spellskite worse. The deck also runs between 8-10 counterspells, so you can often use those to protect creatures in lieu of pump spells. None of that is to say Spellskite isn't good in legacy infect, it's just a lot more narrow in use than it is in Modern.
Only my own personal experience to go on, but the playstyle of Legacy Infect is better than the playstyle of Modern Infect in almost every way. The deck is stronger and more consistent with Brainstorms and permission spells, but the overall format is a lot more punishing of misplays and suboptimal lines. As a result, it's also a lot less linear than its modern counterpart, you often just play a tempo game. For what it's worth, I don't think I've ever met anyone who prefers the modern version over the legacy version, so I'm pretty certain that your friend will like the legacy build if he enjoys U/G infect in Modern.
Edited some autocorrects
Is the wasteland super important, or can I just use another forest? Out of all the games I've seen, the single wasteland hasn't done a lot and if we ever get Blood Mooned, I feel like being able to fetch the 2 Forests early game makes the long game much less horrid. It's not that I think this is a great idea, I just don't want to buy Wasteland. But I figured I'd ask anyway.
Deck I'm working towards: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-05-16-miracles/
In my opinion and my usual meta, the Wasteland is not that important. I play 2 Pendelhaven, and never really felt that was too many.
Blood Moon hits us hard if it sticks, and even if you have a basic Forest out already you are probably still losing the game.
Wasteland is the only out to Glacial Chasm. If you don't play against that card regularly, then you could skip it. I find Wasteland to be much stronger than a basic Forest. I also find the second Pendlehaven to be stronger than the basic Forest.
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