Exactly this.Originally Posted by mykatdied
I think my build is in general set up well against Delver, probably better than many other green builds (and i really don't think blue builds are that much better against Delver, if at all). It's still about 50/50, just very swingy overall. In the beginning i didn't have a good plan for Delver and lost a lot, then after some changes i was winning almost every match against Delver, then i lost every match for some time, then i started winning again. I think my current list is favored against most Delver decks, but it will never be an easy matchup.
There isn't one strategy that works all the time. Tabernacle can do some work, but sometimes it's useless. Same goes for Maze of Ith. A fast win condition, like S&T for blue lists or Dark Depths for me, can win a lot of games, but sometimes they can stop it. Engineered Explosives main is great and usually buys me a lot of time, but it's not always enough either. Warping Wail can help a bit against most Delver decks.
I think my deck can answer everything Delver does, but i don't have all my different answers at the same time, and sometimes my answers just don't line up with their threats. Tabernacle is bad when they are flooded, Maze of Ith is bad when they are going wide, a Wasteland (or FoW for the Crop Rotation) at the wrong time can stop Dark Depths, Warping Wail does nothing against Goyf, sometimes they Stifle the Engineered Explosives, etc.
From my experience, Grixis Delver is the easiest Delver matchup. BUG Delver depends - lists without Stifle are maybe even easier to beat than Grixis, but most lists i played against had Stifle, and against these decks i don't think i'm favored. RUG Delver i didn't play much, but it's not that different from a BUG list with Stifle. UR Delver is probably the worst - sometimes you just can't win, and Blood Moon from the sideboard doesn't make it easier.
Ah forgot to check there. Thanks!
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Omniscience is bonkers.
3-1'd a small weekly with 2x mb.
being able to drop 2 titans, titan + ugin, or snt->omni into casting eldrazi when no access to titan were insane.
I feel it hurt the consistency a little but it raises the ceiling of certain draws to compete with the faster decks.
Ran a MB Intuition which was great.
I like my current Tracker/Knight list a lot, and it might finally be a version with a higher winrate than the earlier iterations, still too early to tell though. Stopped some experiments that didn't work out, kept some other changes, and it feels just very strong and a lot more consistant than before. The consistancy is still the biggest weakness (most of the games i lost came down to mulligans into bad hands), but Grapple helps with that. There have been some changes to the last list i posted, so i guess i'll just post an updated list:
Maindeck (61 cards):
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Grapple with the Past
2 Warping Wail
2 Crucible of Worlds
Sideboard:
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Warping Wail
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crop Rotation
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moment's Peace
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
So, the changes:
1. As i said before, going under 3 Mox Diamonds was a huge mistake, won't do that again.
2. Tireless Tracker is just great in multiples. I can't find the room for another one, but i want to keep those 3. I'm happy without the Gitrog Monster, haven't missed it at all - i think Tracker is just the overall better choice.
3. No Veteran Explorer. It's strong against Eldrazi, but with a white splash they have an answer with Displacer, and i've seen that a lot. Otherwise it's ok against some decks, but you can't rely on it - and against combo decks it's just very useless.
4. No third big payoff: I replaced Ugin with New Emrakul a while ago, and i think that's the best candidate for that slot. But overall Mindrakul wasn't that impressive for me, it was almost never the strictly better choice compared with the other 2 Eldrazi. So i tried a list with one less clunky card. Haven't really missed it so far, a cheaper card instead is better for consistancy.
5. One less GSZ. That cut was hard to make - but i wanted 3 Grapple, and after cutting 2 creatures so far, i wanted to cut a spell instead, because Grapple gets worse with more spells - and i think with 3x Grapple i can live with one less GSZ.
6. Grapple with the Past: I'm a little late with that card, but it's just great. All the arguments for it with other green lists work for this deck too, this helps a lot with the consistancy. On top of that, Crucible and Knight of the Reliquary both get additional benefits with more lands in the graveyard. I think 3 is the right number - i don't want 4, this card is relying on the graveyard, and so many parts of our deck use the graveyard that it's very reasonable for our opponents to bring in graveyard hate. Against something like Rest in Piece this card is just dead, i don't want that. (Considering graveyard hate, i want my opponents to bring in the hate, because while that might hurt a little bit, it doesn't stop the primary game plan. I just don't want to get to a point where the graveyard hate becomes a real problem.)
7. Thoughtseize in the Sideboard over Leyline: Still testing that, that will take a while and many more matches against combo decks. But i think i like it, it's just more flexible and works against more decks. The mana hasn't been an issue so far, whenever i had a Thoughtseize to cast i also had the black mana (and the 2nd Bayou helps with some other sideboard cards too).
Overall the sideboard looks like a mess with Ensnaring Bridge, Moment's Peace and Toxic Deluge as very different answers to aggressive decks. They are all at their best in different matchups: Bridge is good against certain combo decks too, and can be a permanent solution against Eldrazi, Moment's Peace is the best defense against Infect (and that's probably my worst matchup among the top decks), Toxic Deluge is generally good against every creature based deck and i could see playing more copies at some point.
Golgari Charm is my splitcard as another conditional sweeper against some decks, and an answer to problematic enchantments like Blood Moon against other decks. Imo not good enough for more than one slot, but i'm happy with the one copy.
One thing the change to Thoughtseize makes much more realistic is the possibility to shave one of these for another card against aggro decks, i really don't like that with Leylines. I might do that at some point, have to see what needs the help more.
As you know I'm a fan of the list, I've been playing it a lot. The learning curve is a bit steep, especially against some type of decks. How has grapple been treating you? My list is almost the same, but:
-1 bayou
-1 ghost quarter
-3 grapple
+1 mox (i love 4, it's my brainstorm: it fixes bad hands)
+ 1 zenith (i understand why you wouldnt wanna cut it, it's awesome)
+ 1 warping wail (swiss army knife, though 2 may be enough)
+ 1 wooded foothills (optimize that top)
+ 1 wasteland (i tried the ghost quarter idea, but decks that have basics which you could target, often have multiples of those. Wasteland is way more straight forward for me)
And I agree wholeheartedly that 2 eldrazi top-end spells is plenty. It's very rare I can't find one late game (Knight, titan and crop rotation all let you search for eye).
Currently, my biggest problem is eldrazi. Post-board I have some nice options (Bridge, among others), but T2 TKS is a beating. What's your strategy for Eldrazi?
I can confirm the delver matchup. A single piece of disruption will hardly stop them, but there's so many different angles on which you can attack the deck (their mana, their guys, going of the top) that the matchup becomes at least 50/50.
My current highlight with the deck is going against Sneak and Show (G3). I have an early bridge, game goes for a zillion turns where we have answers for each others moves. I kill his first blood moon with krosan grip, but the second one sticks. Turns out you can still attack with the (now mountain) dryad. I kick for a few turns and can finally drop my 15th land to hardcast Emrakul for the win.
The deck is just great and a blast to play.
I like playing 4 Mox, just can't find the room for another one. Same with 4 GSZ. Going with 3 Warping Wail main is an option too, opens up another sideboard slot. I think without Grapple my deck would go in the same direction. I still don't know if Wasteland or Ghost Quarter is better - i like Ghost Quarter because i find myself in situations where i want to target my own land a lot, but Wasteland is the safer choice and the difference should be very small.
Grapple has overperformed for me.
What it does:
- early it usually ensures a landdrop (and not making your 3rd or 4th landdrop can cost you with this deck, but you have to keep many hands with just 2 mana producing lands)
- it's another way to get important lands back, after they got discarded for a Mox or just after a Wasteland
- later in the game it can get your threats back, especially with 1-ofs it's nice to have a way to do that (i played Volrath's Stronghold for a while mostly for this purpose, this is so much better)
- if you have a Crucible in play, milling lands can be even better than drawing them
- it can make your Knights bigger, getting a 5/5 Knight out on Turn 2 is really nice
- it can reset your Top if you don't want the top 3 cards
In general this just helps a lot with the consistancy. Against graveyard hate like Rest in Piece you have to board out some copies, but that's ok.
Eldrazi: I think it's a good matchup overall, but sometimes their hands are just a little too fast. When they go T1 Mimic, T2 TKS it's getting ugly. Your best shot is to get a big blocker in the way, Knight usually does the job, Tracker can get there too but might be not fast enough. I had one game where i went T1 Mox, Grapple, T2 5/5 Knight. That's hard to stop for Eldrazi and can even beat their nutdraws.
If they play white for Displacer things get even more ugly, a big blocker doesn't work any more - i haven't played that much against white lists, but i think it's harder to beat than the colorless version - but on the other hand probably even less consistant.
If you can stabilize against that first wave you have enough tools to win almost every time. Sometimes hiding behind a Glacial Chasm works too, especially if they don't have Wastelands. (With Crucible, Glacial Chasm, Glimmerpost and at least one other post you can hide behind that for a very long time, that works against many decks. Play Chasm -> Sac Glimmerpost -> Pay 2 Life upkeep -> Replay Glimmerpost, gain 2 Life -> Sac Chasm -> Repeat.)
Overall Eldrazi is a good matchup mostly because they don't always start that way. If they have a hand with some prison pieces but not that much pressure, i win almost every time. Every time they don't start with T1 Mimic or T2 TKS, things are looking very good for us. That inconsistancy is the biggest weakness for Eldrazi.
Veteran Explorer would help against Eldrazi, it's always an option - that helped me beat some nutdraws in the past. But i just think it's overall not useful enough.
I also tried Omniscience in a weekly and liked it a whole lot more than I was expecting to. It led me to mulligan a bit more than I usually do, but it put in a lot of work and caught every opponent who saw it way off guard. Showing in Omniscience, playing Newlamog and then dropping Karakas is one of the most wonderful dirty feelings I've ever had with the deck.
So I keep getting positively CRUSHED at my LGS by combo decks. Last night I lost to Storm, Elves, and mono-blue Show and Tell / Hive Mind.
Mono green just does not cut it against these decks.
I looked at some UG lists, and the 15 most expensive cards (that I don't own) come to about $1,200. Ugh. My shop allows "playtest cards" and runs the events as "casual" ones. I could proxy up UG Post, but I'm afraid I'll love that version more and I can't commit to buying the cards right now.
Does anyone have any thoughts or advice? Should I just get used to losing o combo with mono-green? Maybe try to speed up mono green (add a third Candelabra)? Or just go for it and proxy up UG for this shop only?
Sphere effects - with Sphere of Resistance being optimal - and Thought-Knot Seer are your main tools for fighting back against combo decks.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
A combination of Leyline of sanctity, Surgical extraction, crop rotation and warping wail help me through these bad matchups, but they still remain bad.
I don't think most combo decks are that bad. Game 1 they are, but postboard it should get much better.
Warping Wail, Crop Rotation and Surgical alone can do a lot, Leyline or Sphere of Resistance can help too (and i'm trying out Thoughtseize). Depending on what you are facing, some other cards can be helpful too against some combo decks (Ensnaring Bridge for example against Sneak&Show and Reanimator, or Moment's Peace against Elves).
Most green 12post lists don't play Dark Depths, and i think that's a big mistake especially against combo. All that disruption only buys you time. If you don't kill them fast enough or have to tap out to set that up, the disruption won't be enough to actually win the game. You can probably get around that with cards like Thought-Knot for a combination of more disruption and a win-condition, but if you don't want to do that, Dark Depths is imo the best option.
My winrate against most combo decks is positive - the matchups aren't easy, but very winnable. I don't know how Hencules and others have been doing with my build against combo, but i really don't think it's that bad, especially against the most common combo decks.
My results on xmage against the most common combo decks: Storm 23-13, UB-Reanimator 17-8, Elves 18-6, Sneak&Show 11-8, Belcher 12-4, Manaless Dredge 15-1, BR-Reanimator 11-5, Omnitell 6-3, High Tide 2-7. Some of those wins might have been missplays from my opponents, but some of those losses were missplays on my part too.
If you toss down your list, I can tell you how to make it either econo-good vs combo, or give suggestions for keeping it mono green but having game vs combo.
As someone who enjoys both versions, but abhors losing to combo, I feel I can give you a relatively unbiased opinion.
Wow, it sounds as if your deck has overwhelmingly positive matchups across the board.
Are there any decks that pose a bad matchup for your list at all?
Among the most common decks, i think Infect is probably my worst matchup (7-11 so far). Otherwise some fringe decks are problematic - High Tide, Oops All Spells, Enchantress. My results against Blood Moon decks have actually been ok (even 4-4 against Mono-Red SneakAttack), but i don't know how long that will last. The next bad thing are going by my results Delver decks, but overall that's still 50/50 and might be even better.
If i want to argue against my deck, one problem might be the usually good 12post matchups against fair decks. I'm 21-11 against Miracles, that's good but i think it could be better with a different list. I'm 19-15 against Shardless, that's very close. I'm 8-9 against Aggro Loam. Personally i'm 27-8 against D&T, but other testers seem to have more problems with that matchup. I think all of those matchups are still favorable, but they get harder and probably a little bit worse. And you have to play really tight, there are a lot of decisions and making the slightly wrong decision can cost you the game. I build the deck, i played hundreds of games with it, and i still lose to my own mistakes sometimes. So if you start testing with it, you will probably make even more mistakes, even if you know your way around normal 12post lists, and that can turn slightly positive matchups into slightly negative matchups.
Here's what I'm currently running:
4 Primeval Titan
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Warping Wail
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SIDEBOARD:
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rest In Peace
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Nephalia Academy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
3 Leyline of Sanctity -- these could become a second Sphere of Resistance and two Thought-Knot Seer
1) Run 4x Warping Wail main, if you're not already. It's outstanding in all three of those matchups (and most matchups, frankly).
2) Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere work wonders against Storm and Elves.
3) I'm always in favor of adding more Candles.
4) I haven't seen Hive Mind in forever. But if it's a a real problem at your LGS and you want to go totally next level (at the cost of wasting SB slots), there's always Eon Hub!
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Personally I dislike the leyline strategy for G/w. If you are going for hate cards, bears are your best bet, with crop rotate/surgical/faerie macabre holding them off from combo'ing.teeg does work here, but you really want a 2nd bullet, ala thalia/ethersworn canonist. You can also run silence in this slot, or orim's chant.
Elves just comes down to stopping their turn 3 sorcery, then casting ugin the next turn. your answer could be as simple as running ancient stirrings and more ugin's.
Obviously, both of these matchups benefit hugely from Emrakul, the promised End, especially hive mind.
If you want a U/G list, this is my quick and dirty econo version:
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [ST] Island (1)
4 [GTC] Breeding Pool
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [EMN] Unsubstantiate
4 [OGW] Warping Wall
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FNM] Dismember
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
Yeah Candelabra of Tawnos is a very budget friendly card :p
I'm always confused as to how to use Surgical Extraction against storm. What exactly is my goal when casting this card vs. that archetype? Am I trying to extract their discard spells? Their rituals? Do I cast surgical before or after they combo?
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
My experiment of trying out an old-school rejected card was a success as an experiment, with the result that DRS is definitely not where the deck wants to be. All I did was turn on my opponent's StP spells in the early turns, giving up virtual card advantage. I doubt he's fast enough against unfair decks to make up for it, either.
Re: Surgical vs. Storm, there are so many different things that can be done with this card that it's hard to give rules that will be universally valid. The Storm player often has an equal number of lines available. Whether they know about the Surgical is important too. It also depends a lot on whether it's ANT vs. TES.
I think my own personal rule of thumb would be to try and extract Dark Ritual against ANT if they start going off quickly, on the theory that they are probably counting on either multiple Dark Rituals or a big boost from Cabal Ritual. If the Extraction is likely to put them off threshold, I'm likely to fire it. Alternatively you can wait on the Surgical if a Past In Flames line looks like their out, but it's pretty dangerous to try and hold something in hand for the last possible moment. It might walk into a discard spell.
The line I would most want to execute due to its sheer beauty would be extracting LEDs (that had been discarded to fuel an Infernal Tutor) with Ad Nauseaum on the stack.
Interesting, because that's the opposite of my own experience. I had Gaddock Teeg in my Sideboard for a while, just to turn my GSZ into something useful against combo.
My experience with Teeg was simple:
1. I need a perfect hand to cast it on Turn 1 (and other builds never have that option). On turn 2 it might already be too late, on turn 3 with GSZ it's almost certainly too late.
2. Almost every combo deck, certainly Storm, will board in Abrupt Decay and often just be happy to have a target for that. That did sometimes cost me a game, when i tapped out for Teeg.
Overall it didn't win me many games, usually it came down when i had enough interaction anyway later in the game and wasn't really needed. I cut it from the board and didn't replace it with other combo hate, and that worked fine for me.
Leyline has the big advantage they can't hit it with Abrupt Decay, and you don't need to tap mana to have it (unless you draw it later in the game, then it's usually really bad), so you can keep up your interaction. When every combo deck boards in Abrupt Decay, but you don't have any relevant targets for that (i do have a lot of targets, but no combo hate, unless you count Deathrite and Knight of the Reliquary) that's usually an advantage.
That's the same reason i don't want to go with Spheres and rather try out Thoughtseize with my black splash.
If i compare that list to my own, you actually play strictly more combo hate than me - so i don't really think that's the big problem. The problem is probably mostly what i wrote earlier: You don't run Dark Depths, just like most other mono-green lists don't. So you don't have a good way to close out the game fast and without having a setup turn where you tap out during your turn - that just doesn't work very often against combo.
My personal rule against almost every combo deck: If you have any interaction, keep up mana for it at every time. Tapping out without winning the same turn will lose you the game most of the time, so just don't do it. Against most combo decks you can tap out Turn 1 on the play, and against Elves there are times where you can tap out, but that's it. With that rule it can be hard for your deck to find a way to win before they can win even against all your disruption.
Be patient with Surgical. If they go off with Past in Flames, analyze what they have and what they need and poke a hole in it if you can. If they go off with Ad Nauseam, analyze what you could target and decide if it's better to go for it now or wait to see what they find (LED is pretty much the only thing i would extract in response to Ad Nauseam).
There are very few situations against Storm where i just use Surgical before they go off.
The StP argument is irrelevant for my deck, it's completely ok for me if they blow a StP on my Deathrite instead of my Knight or Tracker, so about the unfair decks: It wins games sometimes. Reanimator or Dredge have a real problem to beat a single active Deathrite, Storm has at least some problems with it. I like it more than Gaddock Teeg just as hate against those decks. But it can also be too late, the same arguments i gave against other hateful permanents apply here too - you want to have it on T1, or it's probably a mistake to tap out for it.
For me it is useful enough, if you want it in other lists is very questionable.
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