Miracle Control

[hoernchen]

After playing around with Miracles (I am still looking for a Legacy Deck I am feeling comfortable with) and then I tried the Dementor list form The Brainstorm Show.
Did anyone of you ever try this list? How would you compare it with Miracles?
http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/pod...tor-deck-tech/

I am also quite happy that I found this Miracles Forum. You have a very nice community here :)

[Minniehajj]

After playing around with Miracles (I am still looking for a Legacy Deck I am feeling comfortable with) and then I tried the Dementor list form The Brainstorm Show.
Did anyone of you ever try this list? How would you compare it with Miracles?
http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/pod...tor-deck-tech/

I am also quite happy that I found this Miracles Forum. You have a very nice community here :)

There are some larger issues with the DeMentor deck, it is extremely light on removal so that it's delver and elves matchups tend to be a bit worse.

The reason that this deck just doesn't see much play is because Terminus exists, mainly. Terminus and Miracles as a whole is trying to do what DeMentor is trying to do, but almost strictly better. They have an overall more proactive plan than Miracles does, but that's because they cannot really afford to be as reactive.
I've played with the list a little bit, it's okay, and quite fun, but my one true love will always be miracles, heh.

[ozimek]

There are some larger issues with the DeMentor deck, it is extremely light on removal so that it's delver and elves matchups tend to be a bit worse.

The reason that this deck just doesn't see much play is because Terminus exists, mainly. Terminus and Miracles as a whole is trying to do what DeMentor is trying to do, but almost strictly better. They have an overall more proactive plan than Miracles does, but that's because they cannot really afford to be as reactive.
I've played with the list a little bit, it's okay, and quite fun, but my one true love will always be miracles, heh.

I only tried the DeMentor deck once or twice at smaller local events. It was a blast to play, but the mana was just so much worse, and the addition of Deathrite Shaman does not make up for it.

If I were to play it today, I would probably try to reduce the number of spells that require UU, and add main deck Abrupt Decays, and possibly Painful truths.

[Minniehajj]

I only tried the DeMentor deck once or twice at smaller local events. It was a blast to play, but the mana was just so much worse, and the addition of Deathrite Shaman does not make up for it.

If I were to play it today, I would probably try to reduce the number of spells that require UU, and add main deck Abrupt Decays, and possibly Painful truths.

Right, that was a lot of the part of issues I had with the deck.

We are detracting away from this thread's focal point so any further discussion that people would like to have over this DeMentor deck and Esper Mentor shells in general can be referred here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...1-Esper-Mentor

[hoernchen]

Right, that was a lot of the part of issues I had with the deck.

We are detracting away from this thread's focal point so any further discussion that people would like to have over this DeMentor deck and Esper Mentor shells in general can be referred here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...1-Esper-Mentor

I was already trying to get some information at this threat, but seems like noone is really active there. I was also looking for the opinion of Miracle players, since I really appreciate this deck and also these kind of players. Having the same idea of how a game of magic should be helps a lot. Thank you anyway!

[mike1987]

With many delver decks running winter orb these days, how do you guys circumvent this?

As we would usually board out FOW, counterspells against such decks. A timely winter orb with a counter in hand will make life very difficult for us. That is of course if we manage to land counterbalance first.

[Claw_Outcast]

So, has anyone considered Thalia, Heretic Cathar, possibly in Clique or Mentor slot (Or even sideboard)? She is brutal in conjunction with Back to Basics, which is often played anyway. Might even be worthwhile to include Karakas in order to protect her until BtB hits.

[twndomn]

With many delver decks running winter orb these days, how do you guys circumvent this?

As we would usually board out FOW, counterspells against such decks. A timely winter orb with a counter in hand will make life very difficult for us. That is of course if we manage to land counterbalance first.

I'm not sure about SB-out FoW against a deck that's certain to have Winter Orb. Clique is a great proactive way to go after Winter Orb. Your opponent doesn't always have brainstorm to hide the Orb. If it's popular in your meta, Wipe Away can be a consideration, and the card is also an out against Omni in play, Cunning wish on stack.

[ozimek]

With many delver decks running winter orb these days, how do you guys circumvent this?

As we would usually board out FOW, counterspells against such decks. A timely winter orb with a counter in hand will make life very difficult for us. That is of course if we manage to land counterbalance first.

I assume we are talking about Winter Orbs from their sideboard.

I think most people are routinely boarding in one or two Wear//Tear in most matchups anyway to deal with various hate cards like:
* Pithing Needle
* Null Rod
* Choke
* Sylvan Library
* Sulfuric Vortex
* Winter Orb, can now be added to the list.

Of course Winter Orb is a bit different, as you can get caught with your lands tapped, but OTOH the same goes for Choke. The presence of Winter Orb in the meta might call for being slightly more conservative with sorcery speed plays, if you fear the opponent might sneak in a WO. It also makes Basic Mountain more necessary, as you will need to be able to produce R more often (as in more times during a match) against Delver Decks.

Some people are already running 3 W//T which I suspect was mostly due to Chalice of the Void, but WO would also be another reason to increase to three copies.

Killing Winter Orb with EE could be difficult.

[KingOfThePanda]

So every time I have gone to my locals, I've gone 1-1-1 with the Entreat version of Miracles, and the draws could almost always be averted if I was more proactive. So I was wondering what the opinions were on the 4 Mentor 0 Entreat build was. Is the Entreat version better for some reason? Or am I just playing the deck wrong?

[KingOfThePanda]

Also, in a pure UW build, is it okay to play only 2 Tundra?

[Minniehajj]

So every time I have gone to my locals, I've gone 1-1-1 with the Entreat version of Miracles, and the draws could almost always be averted if I was more proactive. So I was wondering what the opinions were on the 4 Mentor 0 Entreat build was. Is the Entreat version better for some reason? Or am I just playing the deck wrong?

The mentor version is more proactive and punishes people that prepare for Miracles to be a slow grueling control deck when, instead, they can just "mentor you" and be a proactive deck overall. It's not necessarily better, it's almost always a matter of personal preference and style. Entreat is better at blanking removal in most decks, but you can usually find a place to land a mentor that a single removal spell won't matter. Like I said before, depends heavily on how you play.

Also, in a pure UW build, is it okay to play only 2 Tundra?

Should be fine, but depends heavily on what your manabase looks like overall. If you are heavy on basics, and have a plan like B2B or Blood Moon, 2 tundra should be just fine.

[KingOfThePanda]

The mentor version is more proactive and punishes people that prepare for Miracles to be a slow grueling control deck when, instead, they can just "mentor you" and be a proactive deck overall. It's not necessarily better, it's almost always a matter of personal preference and style. Entreat is better at blanking removal in most decks, but you can usually find a place to land a mentor that a single removal spell won't matter. Like I said before, depends heavily on how you play.



Should be fine, but depends heavily on what your manabase looks like overall. If you are heavy on basics, and have a plan like B2B or Blood Moon, 2 tundra should be just fine.

Awesome, thanks for the response. Would that B2B plan need to be in the main? Because I have 2 in the sideboard. I'm just concerned about the mana in the main deck.

[Minniehajj]

Awesome, thanks for the response. Would that B2B plan need to be in the main? Because I have 2 in the sideboard. I'm just concerned about the mana in the main deck.

It doesn't NEED to be main deck, but I'm sure you'll get plenty of "free wins" from main deck B2B.

I think it's a good idea to focus on attempting to get access to the red splash when you get a chance. I understand that the budget can be a concern, but the red splash just really evens things out for you. A straight UW variant has a ton of approaches that it can go, B2B, or things like wasteland/manlands as well. I'm not an expert on any of these approaches, however, so I can only advise based on my limited experience in that regard.

[CutthroatCasual]

So every time I have gone to my locals, I've gone 1-1-1 with the Entreat version of Miracles, and the draws could almost always be averted if I was more proactive. So I was wondering what the opinions were on the 4 Mentor 0 Entreat build was. Is the Entreat version better for some reason? Or am I just playing the deck wrong?

It's more likely an issue with your play than an issue with the deck. I run the ETA version and I rarely go to time, much less draw rounds. Yes, often I'll find myself one of the last tables still playing their match, but even then there's always at least 5 minutes left of the clock.

[Minniehajj]

It's more likely an issue with your play than an issue with the deck. I run the ETA version and I rarely go to time, much less draw rounds. Yes, often I'll find myself one of the last tables still playing their match, but even then there's always at least 5 minutes left of the clock.

Yes, this is a big point as well. When you start playing miracles, you'll likely be going to time and just generally playing slowly. You alleviate this with practice and good dexterity/mechanics when spinning your top 3, etc. Check out this video to see some great top spinning mechanics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnk-Igsmw_A

And this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h9qnmvQhAo'

Tl;Dr: Practice more and you'll see yourself progressively getting faster. It's not something that's naturally easy, but comes heavily with practice.

[KingOfThePanda]

Yes, this is a big point as well. When you start playing miracles, you'll likely be going to time and just generally playing slowly. You alleviate this with practice and good dexterity/mechanics when spinning your top 3, etc. Check out this video to see some great top spinning mechanics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnk-Igsmw_A

And this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h9qnmvQhAo'

Tl;Dr: Practice more and you'll see yourself progressively getting faster. It's not something that's naturally easy, but comes heavily with practice.

Awesome, those videos are great. There was a video I watched a long time ago with who I believe was Joe Losset Vs someone where he sat there for 5 MInutes getting maximum value out of his Brainstorms and Predicts with Top and it was that video that made me want to play Miracles. The intricacies of the deck are awesome.

[Lormador]

@King of the Panda:

I agree, those videos are nice. I particularly enjoy seeing Philipp Schonegger play the deck in the first video. I've literally never seen anyone play Magic with such speed and dexterity. It's a crying shame that there's such a small amount of coverage of him playing on Youtube, if you ask me. If you haven't read his articles, they are required for anyone coming to the deck.

I took a look at the decklist in your link and I will offer unsolicited advice on it. Take it with a grain of salt, because I'm certainly not a player of his caliber and there are some much better players than myself perusing this thread. I also may be considered something of an old timer, less than dedicated, or simply foolish because I also play other decks (particularly those that have a good Miracles matchup, like 12Post). May reason, rather than authority, be my guide. It ought to guide all of us, since we do play UW after all.

Land (22)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
1x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Predict
4x Swords to Plowshares
Enchantment (4)
4x Counterbalance
Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sorcery (9)
2x Entreat the Angels
3x Ponder
4x Terminus
Creature (3)
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

These are the things I think are unusual and worthy of an explanation.

• Two Karakas support only 1 Vendilion Clique. How is that worth it? Joe Lossett has 5 legends (usually) with that same land configuration.
• Mystic Gate plays around Choke, but does it really do so effectively?
• All of these nonbasic lands (2 Mystic Gate 2 Karakas) lock you out of Back to Basics, Blood Moon, or any other nonbasic land hate (even Tsabo's Web)
• 3 Ponder 2 Predict, shouldn't the 4th Ponder be played before the 1st Predict?

The fetchlands are a little weird too, with 3 Misty Rainforest before the Scalding Tarn numbers are filled out.

I think one has to go a little outside of the usual method of researching successful lists when going straight UW these days. Folks have been playing UWr for so long (and UWr has a significant advantage in the mirror) that the successful lists of the past were operating in metagames pretty far removed from today's. This is the lesson I learned from RIP/Helm Miracles: the last "successful" list goes back quite a long time, and it's clunky nonsense by today's standards, not even incorporating 4 Ponder. So, you'll need to think for yourself to make this work.

IMHO, there are two potential (mutually exclusive) strengths of straight UW. You can either load up on nonbasic lands and do something a little insane like Humility + Mishra's Factory, or you can play a monolithic basic land base and watch what happens when you put Back to Basics on the stack. The list in your sig leans toward getting value from nonbasic lands, but most of the value it's going to get is just Karakas and Mystic Gate. Mystic Gate has value only in getting to resolve Jaces through Chokes, and Karakas won't be doing much with only 1 Vendilion. I also don't think Snapcaster Mage is going to produce the value he's supposed to produce when he cannot flash back Pyroblasts.

Believe me, I tried Mystic Gate. I paid actual money to buy the card, sleeved it up, played sanctioned events with it, and managed to play through Choke once. I cackled like a boss when my opponent played Choke and I had a board of Plains, Mountain, Karakas, Mystic Gate. I cut the card the next day and eventually traded it away because it doesn't do enough. The enchantment/artifact hate people bring against Miracles is prodigious and varied, so it's not like you get to cut down on Wear/Tear, Council's Judgment, and Disenchant because you're playing Mystic Gate. It's better to just blow it up like the rest of the hate cards, playing to the deck's strengths of hyper-efficient library manipulation. It's really important to be able to kill Winter Orb and Null Rod right now, and Mystic Gate does nothing against those.

I haven't actually tried either Back to Basics or Humility and Mishra's Factory, but I suspect both of those strategies are powerful enough to win some serious games of Magic. My own meta is infested with DnT so I don't think I can get away with either of them, but I have played with Humility even just by itself in the past. When it resolves, opponents generally go in the tank for awhile and either concede or start drawing and passing, looking for their 1 or 2 outs to the card. Certainly, lacking red mana and blasts, you'll need this sort of edge in a mirror match. Under a Humility (which can't be blasted or Flustered), Mishra's Factory kicks Monastery Mentor's butt.

...of course, I'm kind of a weirdo, and I'll post the list I play momentarily. I tried Monastery Mentor, and I understand he's the bee's knees to some people. I really want to like him. I tried this whole Predict thing, and I don't really know what's wrong: I just keep losing with the strategy. Maybe it's because my meta is full, I mean chock full, of DnT. There is seriously more DnT here than Miracles, even! And those streamlined 19-20 lands, 2-4 Predict, 4 Mentor builds appear to function as little more than food for THC-equipped DnT decks.

The way I see the deck is simply this.

20 Lands: 9 fetches (Tarn, Strand, 1 Mesa) 5 duals (3 Tundra 2 Volcanic) 6 basics (4 Island 2 Plains)
28 Spells: 4 StP 4 Terminus 4 Top 4 Counterbalance 4 Force 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder

...the 12 remaining cards will determine how your particular deck works, how it wins etc. Currently I play:
2 JTMS
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest In Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Spell Pierce
1 Helm of Obedience

My favorite sideboard card has to be Llawan, Cephalid Empress. I know my local meta well enough to be aware of the local expert Food Chain player, and that ridiculous cephalid is the stone cold nuts against Food Chain.

[KingOfThePanda]

@King of the Panda:

I agree, those videos are nice. I particularly enjoy seeing Philipp Schonegger play the deck in the first video. I've literally never seen anyone play Magic with such speed and dexterity. It's a crying shame that there's such a small amount of coverage of him playing on Youtube, if you ask me. If you haven't read his articles, they are required for anyone coming to the deck.

I took a look at the decklist in your link and I will offer unsolicited advice on it. Take it with a grain of salt, because I'm certainly not a player of his caliber and there are some much better players than myself perusing this thread. I also may be considered something of an old timer, less than dedicated, or simply foolish because I also play other decks (particularly those that have a good Miracles matchup, like 12Post). May reason, rather than authority, be my guide. It ought to guide all of us, since we do play UW after all.

Land (22)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
1x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Predict
4x Swords to Plowshares
Enchantment (4)
4x Counterbalance
Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sorcery (9)
2x Entreat the Angels
3x Ponder
4x Terminus
Creature (3)
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

These are the things I think are unusual and worthy of an explanation.

• Two Karakas support only 1 Vendilion Clique. How is that worth it? Joe Lossett has 5 legends (usually) with that same land configuration.
• Mystic Gate plays around Choke, but does it really do so effectively?
• All of these nonbasic lands (2 Mystic Gate 2 Karakas) lock you out of Back to Basics, Blood Moon, or any other nonbasic land hate (even Tsabo's Web)
• 3 Ponder 2 Predict, shouldn't the 4th Ponder be played before the 1st Predict?

The fetchlands are a little weird too, with 3 Misty Rainforest before the Scalding Tarn numbers are filled out.

I think one has to go a little outside of the usual method of researching successful lists when going straight UW these days. Folks have been playing UWr for so long (and UWr has a significant advantage in the mirror) that the successful lists of the past were operating in metagames pretty far removed from today's. This is the lesson I learned from RIP/Helm Miracles: the last "successful" list goes back quite a long time, and it's clunky nonsense by today's standards, not even incorporating 4 Ponder. So, you'll need to think for yourself to make this work.

IMHO, there are two potential (mutually exclusive) strengths of straight UW. You can either load up on nonbasic lands and do something a little insane like Humility + Mishra's Factory, or you can play a monolithic basic land base and watch what happens when you put Back to Basics on the stack. The list in your sig leans toward getting value from nonbasic lands, but most of the value it's going to get is just Karakas and Mystic Gate. Mystic Gate has value only in getting to resolve Jaces through Chokes, and Karakas won't be doing much with only 1 Vendilion. I also don't think Snapcaster Mage is going to produce the value he's supposed to produce when he cannot flash back Pyroblasts.

Believe me, I tried Mystic Gate. I paid actual money to buy the card, sleeved it up, played sanctioned events with it, and managed to play through Choke once. I cackled like a boss when my opponent played Choke and I had a board of Plains, Mountain, Karakas, Mystic Gate. I cut the card the next day and eventually traded it away because it doesn't do enough. The enchantment/artifact hate people bring against Miracles is prodigious and varied, so it's not like you get to cut down on Wear/Tear, Council's Judgment, and Disenchant because you're playing Mystic Gate. It's better to just blow it up like the rest of the hate cards, playing to the deck's strengths of hyper-efficient library manipulation. It's really important to be able to kill Winter Orb and Null Rod right now, and Mystic Gate does nothing against those.

I haven't actually tried either Back to Basics or Humility and Mishra's Factory, but I suspect both of those strategies are powerful enough to win some serious games of Magic. My own meta is infested with DnT so I don't think I can get away with either of them, but I have played with Humility even just by itself in the past. When it resolves, opponents generally go in the tank for awhile and either concede or start drawing and passing, looking for their 1 or 2 outs to the card. Certainly, lacking red mana and blasts, you'll need this sort of edge in a mirror match. Under a Humility (which can't be blasted or Flustered), Mishra's Factory kicks Monastery Mentor's butt.

...of course, I'm kind of a weirdo, and I'll post the list I play momentarily. I tried Monastery Mentor, and I understand he's the bee's knees to some people. I really want to like him. I tried this whole Predict thing, and I don't really know what's wrong: I just keep losing with the strategy. Maybe it's because my meta is full, I mean chock full, of DnT. There is seriously more DnT here than Miracles, even! And those streamlined 19-20 lands, 2-4 Predict, 4 Mentor builds appear to function as little more than food for THC-equipped DnT decks.

The way I see the deck is simply this.

20 Lands: 9 fetches (Tarn, Strand, 1 Mesa) 5 duals (3 Tundra 2 Volcanic) 6 basics (4 Island 2 Plains)
28 Spells: 4 StP 4 Terminus 4 Top 4 Counterbalance 4 Force 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder

...the 12 remaining cards will determine how your particular deck works, how it wins etc. Currently I play:
2 JTMS
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest In Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Spell Pierce
1 Helm of Obedience

My favorite sideboard card has to be Llawan, Cephalid Empress. I know my local meta well enough to be aware of the local expert Food Chain player, and that ridiculous cephalid is the stone cold nuts against Food Chain.

Hey, thanks for the reply. It's totally my fault for not updating my profile, but that list is actually one of the first I made, so it's bad. This is what I'm currently trying, and will be taking to my locals on sunday:

4x Mentor
2x Snapcaster
2x Jace

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Top
3x Counterbalance
2x Predict
4x Swords
2x Counterspell
4x Terminus
4x Force of Will

4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Marsh Flats
2x Tundra
6x Island
3x Plains

That's what I'm currently on. It has yet to be tested in an actual game, but I'm pretty sure this is alright. Main deck Back to Basics seems really sweet, but my meta has a lot of Death and Taxes players and I don't think it will be good against them. However, as soon as I get my hands on them, I'll be testing them in the main, regardless of what's at my locals.

[KingOfThePanda]

Forgot to ask, what are the thought on keeping the Entreat plan in the sideboard? In theory, the main deck Mentors means the opponent is inclined to keep in all their swords and creature hate. So it seems like the sudden Entreat plan blanks a lot of cards in game 2.

Also, would the addition of Gitaxian Probe in the Mentor build be a good idea? Having almost perfect information, free draw, and free Mentor triggers seems good to me. It also seems like some shenanigans can go on with Top. Activate Probe, respond with Top to rearrange stuff, then use Top to draw what you want after the first affect resolves, then see your opponent's hand and have a Top back in hand.