All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

Just because I'm comfortable with Miracles'power level doesn't mean I want it to be even stronger. FFS dude!

Its because you deny any numerical evidence of Miracles overperforming based on "I don't have a issue due to my personal deckchoice, so everyone should STFU with their pet.dec!".

Again, I'm not complaining about this - my only complaint is having to spell it out to you over and over again. I guess it must be boring pretending that you're incapable of understanding so ething so straight forward. But it's either that or admit that you're full of shit I guess, so whatever bro.

I totally get your "Miracles is a good matchup for my Lands.dec so I am fine if Miracles fucks the remaining format" point of arguing. I just don't have any respect for such selfish positions.

The real sad thing is that most of this community appatently to wants to give you a pass becuase they are also so frustrated by Miracles they no longer care if the bitching is based in fact or not. The mood seems to be to just let you vent because you have good reason to be upset.

...says the dood ignoring every numerical evidence in every thread. Just keep going arguing that Miracles only having weaknesses to fringe angles of attack is good for the format and that 50% of a T16 isn't an indicator that something is wrong

[Fox]

Wait, you think I'm complaining?

Just because I'm comfortable with Miracles'power level doesn't mean I want it to be even stronger. FFS dude!

Incidentally I'm glad that Terminus requires set up (that STP does not). If I'm trying to assemble Marit Lage I have outs to Terminus that I don't have to an actual 1cc instant. I might kill the Top before I make the token, for instance. If their plan was Plow I'm SOL; but if their plan was Terminus they are SOL (unless they meet the condition of holding a Brainstorm - a condition that doesn't apply to STP because it's unconditional).

Terminus is also not easy to flashback with Snappy, because you have to go by the actual cost and not the conditional cost.

Again, I'm not complaining about this - my only complaint is having to spell it out to you over and over again. I guess it must be boring pretending that you're incapable of understanding so ething so straight forward. But it's either that or admit that you're full of shit I guess, so whatever bro.

The real sad thing is that most of this community appatently to wants to give you a pass becuase they are also so frustrated by Miracles they no longer care if the bitching is based in fact or not. The mood seems to be to just let you vent because you have good reason to be upset.

To be fair, your posts concerning miracles in this thread and others are fairly blind to how every other deck that isn't R/G Lands operates and sees miracles. It's great content from your one vantage point, but it's still just one point of reference.

Let's create a metaphor for how busted Counterbalance is and what your posts look like there:
Stasis no longer has an upkeep clause, instead it has a fake qualifier like "on your previous turn you must have drawn >1 card." In this alternate universe you play Elves and have 12 cards (Quirion, Nettle, Wirewood) that basically invalidate what would undoubtedly be a format-warping deck due the sheer effortlessness of resolving a wildly overpowered 2-drop Blue enchantment that fundamentally attacks the symmetry of game rules. It is not necessary to also reword Stasis to say "only opponents skip their untap step," but you certainly could to give it more of the Counterbalance'y flavour.
Just because you have a deck chock full of untap rulebreakers, you can't really go around saying that such a Stasis is ok...and if they have New Thalia/Kismet-type cards, it's also not okay because you can maindeck say, a copy of Amulet of Vigor.

Just so you're aware, a lot of what you say about miracles (especially stuff like 'just maindeck Boseju') is often going to draw flak because it's so tunnel-visioned.

[Crimhead]

Guys, we are talking about Terminus being a conditional card or not.

Lands is not the only deck that can deal with a Top,e specially post board. And Miracles itself doesn't find Top on time 100%. Even without split second, you can force the Miracles player to cast Terminus "now or never". Or later, if they live that long. Lands is one example. I prefer to use real life examples from the deck I'm most familiar with to not invite a red herring should I make a trivial mistake.

I don't ignore numbers. I get that Miracles pushing a 20% meta share - I still feel the format is diverse, and that the format can "answer" Miracles well enough that there is a limit on how much more successful, if any, Miracles could become.

Just so you're aware, a lot of what you say about miracles (especially stuff like 'just maindeck Boseju') is often going to draw flak because it's so tunnel-visioned.

Show me where I said that please!

All I said about main-decking Bosieju is (paraphrasing):

-The opportunity cost of doing this in Lands is extremely low.
- It is against the norm to main-deck Bosieju in Lands and by no means established to be superior to keeping it in the side.

And I only even mentioned Boseiju because other posters who don't seem to get Lands posted to the contrary.

Why is it acceptable that my words and positions be twisted? How can I even bother reading your replies when you pull that shit? Is your intention to frustrate me til I just stfu?

Just keep going arguing that...
that 50% of a T16 isn't an indicator that something is wrong

One event? Nice.

I can show you multiple major events where Miracles got zero top-8s. How isn't that an that something isn't wrong?

[Lemnear]

One event? Nice.

I can show you multiple major events where Miracles got zero top-8s. How isn't that an that something isn't wrong?

What about taking the last 12 month of tournament data and compare metagame share and T8 presence to see that Miracles constantly overperforms?

[Fox]

Show me where I said that please!
All I said about main-decking Bosieju is (paraphrasing):
-The opportunity cost of doing this in Lands is extremely low.
- It is against the norm to main-deck Bosieju in Lands and by no means established to be superior to keeping it in the side.
And I only even mentioned Boseiju because other posters who don't seem to get Lands posted to the contrary.

I'm talking about the overall impression you make across multiple miracles discussion threads, not just here in the B/R. iirc the Boseju talk mostly occured in the now-closed "How to beat miracles pt.1." Don't focus on Boseju alone, that is more for the specific Amulet of Vigor reference in the Stasis metaphor. The point there is that the idea of maindeck Amulet should give you a sense of how anyone not on SnT or Lands perceives a suggestion like maindeck Boseju. It's the "how can you be serious about that" aspect your posts (because they're so R/G Lands-focused) that I'm attempting to highlight. Your posts often read in such a way as to ignore that other decks' viewpoints as being irrelevant because it is not your experience as an R/G Lands pilot.

If we're looking at recent pages here in the B/R, you'll get a look at what I think about a mechanic like discard. Now if I only care about my skewed view of legacy, I would love a rules update that said: "if you cast an instant/sorcery that allows you to see the contents of your opponent's hand, you lose in say, 5 turns." Seriously pushing that viewpoint would never lead to productive discourse between myself and a Jund pilot, for instance. In the same way, you can't keep pushing the R/G Lands perspective as a justification point for pieces of miracles being okay. How Lands interprets and interacts with a card isn't grounds for format-wide B/R discussions. Sure @Lemnear is taking the bait, but you're kind of stoking the fires here.

[Crimhead]

What about taking the last 12 month of tournament data and compare metagame share and T8 presence to see that Miracles constantly overperforms?

In the post you just quoted I actually acknowledged those numbers! You are an artist at the Red Herring, ignoring parts of a very small post, and changing the subject when you are being called out.

As I said, having a deck with a higher meta-gaming share and top8 presence does not preclude (imo) a diverse meta. I see no point in going through this again (other than it allows you to change the subject about the conditionality of Terminus), but if you like I will again outline what I think needs to happen for the format to be considered warped beyond diversity. Then you can disagree and completely ignore my perspective and reiterate you tournament numbers I guess.

I'm talking about the overall impression you make across multiple miracles discussion threads, not just here in the B/R. iirc the Boseju talk mostly occured in the now-closed "How to beat miracles pt.1." Don't focus on Boseju alone, that is more for the specific Amulet of Vigor reference in the Stasis metaphor. The point there is that the idea of maindeck Amulet should give you a sense of how anyone not on SnT or Lands perceives a suggestion like maindeck Boseju.

But I didn't suggest anybody on anything but Lands runs Bosieju (and I never once suggested main-decking it, even in Lands). The overall impression I make does not give you leave to put words in my mouth, which is what you did. I have never said anything resembling that!

People who don't run Lands might perceive a main deck Boseiju as extreme, but only if they also don't understand Lands. Having eight one-mana tutors means a singleton land card will have high impact in the desired matches well having very low impact in every other match. Should you happen to draw it when you don't want it, this is Lands.dec! Pitch it to a Mox, pitch it to a Vortex, feed it to a Crop Rotation or imbue it with a Riftstone Portal. In a pinch you can even use the mana and eat a couple life - might even force a spell through for you!

This is why your Amulet analogy is way of base. Amulet will be clunkier in every single deck than Boseiju will ever be in Lands. That's why anybody freaking out over an unusual choice to main deck Boseiju (in Lands) is out of line.

Also, I straight up call BS. You don't get to invalidate everything I say about Miracles by the assertion that I come from bias. You have to critique stuff I actually wrote and call them out on being specifically biased and inaccurate. Not just slam my posts in general.

Your posts often read in such a way as to ignore that other decks' viewpoints as being irrelevant because it is not your experience as an R/G Lands pilot.

Let's see here:

Also, if you blow up Top, drop a Chalice, or just go too fast for them to set up (ala Infect), suddenly that condition isn't so trivial.

Looks like I've covered every deck that runs Chalice (Eldrazis, Loam, Merfolk, MUD), decks that can deal with Top (Shardless, Elves, Jund, Delver), and any deck that can win before Miracles sets up. I'll remind you again I'm mentioning these decks as being able to disrupt setting up conditions for Terminus. I'm not saying anything else about the nature of these matches (and hate that I have to type that).

I'm not ignoring the perspective of other decks - you are ignorng the fact that I'm including those perspectives.

Maybe you interpret the above passage as Lands can blow up Top, or Lands can drop a CotV, or Lands can just go too fast. But that's you who is fixating on Lands and ignoring the (obvious) facts that other decks can also do these things; and more reliably that Lands can!

In the same way, you can't keep pushing the R/G Lands perspective as a justification point for pieces of miracles being okay. How Lands interprets and interacts with a card isn't grounds for format-wide B/R discussions.

To be fair, your posts concerning miracles in this thread and others are fairly blind to how every other deck that isn't R/G Lands operates and sees miracles.

That's not being fair at all (see above)

I don't thing I'm the one approaching Miracles from a narrow view point. Folks here talk of Miracles as outclassing the other decks on every measurable front. I don't think that's how Shardless interprets Miracles. Or Eldrazi Shops. Or Infect or D&T or Loam or various other fringe decks. Not every deck is a dog to Miracles.

Also, I wasn't talking about anything in Miracles being "okay". That conversation goes nowhere (see my response to Lemnear). I was calling Lemnear out on talking out of his ass as usual, in this case about wether or not an alternate casting cost is conditional.

Sure @Lemnear is taking the bait, but you're kind of stoking the fires here.

Bait? I didn't prompt him into denying that Terminus is only conditionally a one-mana instant speed sweeper. He owns that.

I'm not the only person in recent (Miracles related) threads who's called him out for spouting the first piece of tripe that pops into his head (as long as it implicates Miracles). I think three other posters have done this in recent threads (and you gotta love how he never backs down no matter how ridiculous his assertions are).

Remember that first (now locked) Miracles article thread? Lemnear insistrd Lands was a Chalice deck that could/should be main-decking Chalice. Both Dice and I disagreed. At this point he's obviously talking out his ass about a deck he doesn't understand, and being corrected by two posters who have been playing that deck for years. What does he do? He keeps arguing! That's how this guy rolls.

(You are feeding into one another, Crim, you're a dog at a bone with this topic and that is causing some issues. You do not know when to walk away either and at some point you should. You do not always need the last word, sometimes it is fine to say your piece and then leave the topic alone.)
Dice.

You come to stick up for him because you have issues with your "overall impression" of me or because he's on the same side as you regarding Miracles. Nice.

[Stan]

This thread reminds me of drunks or football hooligans who come close to bashing eachother's skull in over a disagreement about their team's composition. Participants in either 'debate' have about the same influence on the decisions of the coach/DCI. Relax, regardless of who shouts loudest, it won't influence WotC's policy of ignoring Legacy anyway.

[Spam]

This thread reminds me of drunks or football hooligans who come close to bashing eachother's skull in over a disagreement about their team's composition. Participants in either 'debate' have about the same influence on the decisions of the coach/DCI. Relax, regardless of who shouts loudest, it won't influence WotC's policy of ignoring Legacy anyway.

You're right, and it's awesome. So much free entertainment.

[Lemnear]

Bait? I didn't prompt him into denying that Terminus is only conditionally a one-mana instant speed sweeper. He owns that.

I'm not the only person in recent (Miracles related) threads who's called him out for spouting the first piece of tripe that pops into his head (as long as it implicates Miracles). I think three other posters have done this in recent threads (and you gotta love how he never backs down no matter how ridiculous his assertions are).

Remember that first (now locked) Miracles article thread? Lemnear insistrd Lands was a Chalice deck that could/should be main-decking Chalice. Both Dice and I disagreed. At this point he's obviously talking out his ass about a deck he doesn't understand, and being corrected by two posters who have been playing that deck for years. What does he do? He keeps arguing! That's how this guy rolls.

You come to stick up for him because you have issues with your "overall impression" of me or because he's on the same side as you regarding Miracles. Nice.

We had that talk about conditionality when I pointed you to stuff like Treasure Cruise. You didn't seem to be interrested in differentiating the levels of "conditionality" at all, when we had the topic. For your arguments setting up the Cephalid Illusionist in Cephalid Breakfast doesn't differ from setting up Treasure Cruise in Delver or Terminus alongside SDT, Ponder, Jace and Brainstorm, because you just jump around yelling "its conditional! So its fair!".

Snip removed. Read the whole thread and you see that I questioned why Chalice doesn't move from SB to Mainboard and you dumbass just pointed to the 1cc spells in maindeck and call me names. It took another poster to pick up the ball outlining that the MB configuration has its advantages in game 1's with examples, which I agreed with. Sorry, that I give a rats all about people arguing based on "I want to run this setup and you are dumb" rather than bothering to give a reasoning metagame related.

[Dice_Box]

Cool it. I am locking this until I can get home, clean this up and hand out warnings. Do not attack one another, attack the arguments. This is not up for debate. Do not go around calling one another fucker, do not go along antagonising others. Know when you should walk away.

Open again. Keep it civil and if you don't think you can, go catch Pokemon or something and cool off.

[Megadeus]

I think brainstorm should be banned

[Norm]

I think Thoughtseize should be banned.

EDIT: And Top, hate that one :P

[Lemnear]

I think Necropotence should be unbanned, because it's totally conditional (deckbuilding & lifepoints) and ergo fair /s

@Megadeus
Good we are back on track ^~^

[Sidneyious]

I think frantic search should be unbanned.
You need 3 lands and you have to discard 2 cards.
You will never be able to just pitch 2 lands all the time.

[jrsthethird]

I think Storm Crow should be banned.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Ban brainstorm and make the blue players pay for our entry fees.

[the Thin White Duke]

I think frantic search should be unbanned.
You need 3 lands and you have to discard 2 cards.
You will never be able to just pitch 2 lands all the time.

+1
This is a card I've been hoping would get some attention for a while.
(even though it is totally broken ...)

[Begle1]

I think frantic search should be unbanned.
You need 3 lands and you have to discard 2 cards.
You will never be able to just pitch 2 lands all the time.

Doesn't it have more to do with Storm builds?

Would ANT or TES run it? Would it allow Solidarity to make a come-back?

Reanimator might like it too.

I've always thought it was just too bonkers of a card to be considered.

[Fox]

But I didn't suggest anybody on anything but Lands runs Bosieju (and I never once suggested main-decking it, even in Lands). The overall impression I make does not give you leave to put words in my mouth, which is what you did. I have never said anything resembling that!

People who don't run Lands might perceive a main deck Boseiju as extreme, but only if they also don't understand Lands. Having eight one-mana tutors means a singleton land card will have high impact in the desired matches well having very low impact in every other match. Should you happen to draw it when you don't want it, this is Lands.dec! Pitch it to a Mox, pitch it to a Vortex, feed it to a Crop Rotation or imbue it with a Riftstone Portal. In a pinch you can even use the mana and eat a couple life - might even force a spell through for you!

This is why your Amulet analogy is way of base. Amulet will be clunkier in every single deck than Boseiju will ever be in Lands. That's why anybody freaking out over an unusual choice to main deck Boseiju (in Lands) is out of line.

Also, I straight up call BS. You don't get to invalidate everything I say about Miracles by the assertion that I come from bias. You have to critique stuff I actually wrote and call them out on being specifically biased and inaccurate. Not just slam my posts in general.

You come to stick up for him because you have issues with your "overall impression" of me or because he's on the same side as you regarding Miracles. Nice.

So from the closed "How to beat miracles pt.1" in the latter half we're both talking about hate cards in miracles, mostly maindeck Boseju. When reading your posts you're conveying opinions that are very R/G Lands-centric, which is fine...but it's not a holistic view. The direct quote, which doesn't matter as much as the continuous tone there is:
"How is it insane that a deck powered entirely by utility lands plus enablers would use... :gasp: a utility land hoser [Boseju] to help win a tight match-up. How is this even noteworthy? Is it equally insane that Fish & Eldrazi use CoS to beat counter-magic? I'm not getting this at all."

The point of the Stasis on steroids metaphor is that it doesn't really mean anything if an Elves pilot, who already plays on a very different axis than most Legacy decks (12x untap rulebreakers), says Amulet of Vigor is reasonable tech to beat Stasis + new Kismet-type effect. I'm sure on some level it is fine for their deck very specifically, but using that to say such a Stasis effect is fine for the format is kind of like trolling...so when people go on about Boseju maindeck in Lands being reasonable, it actually is a glaring indictment of Counterbalance as being about the most banworthy card in the format.

Now again, the content of your posts are solid from a singular point of view, but you never really jump from an expert level Lands assessment to "and while R/G Lands can do such and such/answer a problem in this way, other decks cannot...so maybe there is a power level problem." It's fine that you can make a case for Boseju in Lands since you obviously know the deck, just realize that "everything is fine b/c my deck is fine in this meta" can be toxic from the outside.

You can find examples of anyone talking about decks they don't play often/at all, your posts have an R/G Lands-slant to them and that's fine (normal even). I don't think I'm being unfair when I generally characterize the sum of your posts as (again generally) having a set point of reference. Just re-read your entire post (from here in the B/R which I partially quoted), you've gone defensive to the point of angry especially with @Lemnear. I generally look forward to reading your posts, and I'm willing to deconstruct them because the underlying logic is solid; which is why I don't understand why you're not above escalating (mechanics pun!) a flame war.

[Lava Snacks]

I think poor personal hygiene at events should be banned.