I'm curious why you want more revokers? Most of us aren't in love with that card.Originally Posted by phoenix4
Yeah, I have to agree that magus of the Moat seems bad. I get why you would want a card like that as it would be searchable with recruiter, but at double white and so susceptible to dismember, jitte and warping wail (not to mention other MUs with cards like lightning bolt) it just seems sub-optimal.
As far as playing multiple revokers I assume it's for redundancy. It's easy to deal with one revoker but more difficult to deal with two or three a set to the same thing. I considered actually playing a pithing needle in its place but a) it's not searchable with recruiter and b) it doesn't shut off LED.
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I think improving the Miracles match up is a good idea. Jack might be onto something with the four copies of Lightning Bolt and two planeswalkers out of the sideboard. Being able to take out Jace, the Mind Sculptor with Lightning Bolt seems great, but I can also understand the desire to play Sudden Shock to remove Monastery Mentor before it gets out of hand. Concerning which planeswalker to run, I think Nahiri, the Harbinger's ability to remove Counterbalance gives her the edge. Also, it's probably a safe bet running eight blasts in the 75.
I typically board out Blood Moon, Lotus Petal, and some number of Enlightened Tutor against them (not sure if this is ideal). It never crossed my mind to cut Grindstone, but that certainly doesn't mean it isn't worth exploring.
Is it worth running Vexing Shusher? What about Batterskull or some other equipment? Or even something really unconventional like land destruction (while keeping the moons in of course)?
There is currently quite a bit of discussion on the Legacy subreddit concerning how to beat Miracles for anyone who is interested.
I wouldn't board out grindstones against miracles, that card is just too important in that matchup even if you don't have the ability to combo out your opponent. It gives you the ability to interact with your opponent in such as way that most miracles lists don't have an answer to preboard. Even postboard you can force your miracles opponent to play in weird ways.
Ajani Vengeant is probably the best route if you want a board control card that can threaten to Armageddon your opponent.
I think that the problem with Vexing Shusher is that they are too narrow and too easily taken care off. I think that because of our colors we need to have a bit of versatility in our sideboard cards, cards should atleast come in for multiple matchups and either enhance our game plan or give us an alternative to our game plan. Cards like Fiery Confluence are great because in 1 card we have the ability to destroy artifacts, wipe the board and also either close the game or kill planeswalkers.
Just starting to mess around with a new idea, we'll see if it's worth getting rid of so many bullets. I mainly just wanted to do this to try out Nahiri, as I had not yet gotten around to testing the card yet. Here is the list I'm jamming:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
2 wooded foothills
3 bloodstained mire
4 Mountain
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 enlightened tutor
The board
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 duergar hedge-Mage
1 ethersworn canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 ensnaring bridge
1 engineered explosives
Basically the changes are dropping the revoker, trinisphere, and RIP from the 75, putting the 7th blast main (probably the card that makes the most sense there, followed closely by 1 Nahiri or the Explosives) and adding in the extra walkers to wreck miracles. The board plan has to change up from what I've been doing somewhat in the past, meaning early moon, but chopping those 5 and the fast mana and other stuff lets you bring in a ton of good cards vs miracles. Obviously my hesitation is dropping all the bullets for lesser matchups, but the hope is that the 3 tutors and the help from LED let you race storm and dredge, while you hope to have good hands for harder matchups like Sneak and Show and Dark Confidant Loam-ish decks.
Also, I realize that the ideal fetch configuration should be 4 Tarns to mask miracles and sneak and show (tombs and petals) and 1 other (Mesa for miracles, mire for storm/grixis, foothills for RUG) but I'm lazy.
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I would LOVE to have this conversation in more detail. Miracles is so pervasive right now and the match-up is 50/50 at best. In doing some looking at winning Painter decks right now (on MTGGoldfish) there was a list that went 5-0 online that actually played 2 Nahiri and an Emrakul main. I have been playing around with this list (I know, I just said I thought Emrakul was garbage) and it has obviously performed pretty well game 1 against Miracles. There are a couple of interesting interactions as well. For example, if you have the combo out along with a welder but can't mill our your opponent (eg they have Emrakul), you can target yourself and weld in anything you want in response to the Emrakul trigger. Anyway, with 2 Nahiri main, the Miracles MU improves. As for how to beat it post-board, it would be worth having a discussion about what cards are good. I did read over the reddit discussion and it didn't really have a lot to offer. In general, I think you beat miracles in one of these ways:
1. stop the top: multiple revokers, pithing needle, chalice on 1 (not great for us), ???
2. tax their lands: 3 sphere, moon, winter orb?, boil, curse of Marit Lage?
3. have kill conditions they have a hard time dealing with: planeswalkers primarily. How much can we load up on these? Which ones? To some degree any non-creature permanent is somewhat difficult for Miracles to deal with. The question then becomes is it worth it to keep painter's servant in? As for other creature based answers, they all seem bad to me. Revoker is okay against top but they always just deal with it. Same for vexing shusher. The big problem with vexing shusher is that you need 3 red plus what ever other mana you need to get that one spell through. For example, I need 4 red mana to play shusher, cast a blast and make it uncounterable to kill a counterbalance and then they just kill it. Many people will then say "well then they aren't using their removal against your PS" but that really isn't true because of terminus (which kills multiple creatures at once) and snapcaster. I'm not saying that we have to cut all creatures completely, but I think our greatest weakness in the MU is that we are trying to win with a creature based combo and their deck is just riddled with removal in one form or another....I also REALLY HATE Wear/Tear.
So, the real question is, how all-in do we go against the Miracles MU? Go as far as a "transitional SB"? What would that look like indeed?
edit: wish I would have seen Jack's post before writing this, but it's still relevant. Very interested in talking about Jack's list. In particular, do most people actually feel like Magus and Jaya are vital to the main deck?
This is great miracles discussion.
After sideboard your miracles opponents will typically have:
4 swords
2-3 wear tear
3-4 snap caster
4 counter balance
3-4 terminus
Fetch basics
Why do we want to pursue creatures, artifacts and enchantments..... your just asking to get 2:1'd all day long.
This discussion focusing on a slower 8 blast with Walker game is the right approach in my mind.
I have been experimenting with nahari, Koth, chandra, and ajani right now.
I'd also consider a basic Plains in the board. In a long miracles game you need to hit your lands. You can also play Arid Mesa and Fetch for your Plains against things like delver and dnt to keep your mana base stable.
In addition to the Plains I have been trying multiple 2-3 hedge mage, which has been quite strong against not only miracles but also chalice or equipment decks.
Finally fiery confluence continues to win me games I have right winning. 2 in the sideboard is a must.
The hedge mage and confluence are great and blowing up needles on your walkers for blow out turns.
I'll post my list later. I've gotten lots of 4-1 leagues but have yet to seal up a 5-0.
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In a meta filled with Deathrites and stuff, while playing 4 Welders, I personally feel that Revokers are another way of fucking up the OP's gameplan. Of course against burn and stuff, it usually don't harass them as much, but to shut of LED's or Petal's against storm is ..... always nice :D
I can agree that MoatyMagus should probably be another Ensaring Bridge - your arguments concidered :D
I think people forget that "they just remove Revoker" means one less removal for servant. I wouldn't rely on it for a lock (max 1 main), but most decks needs it removed at some point, and shutting ex. Deathrite or Top in the meantime is valuable.
However I've never really recruited it, so a Needle (prolly SB) instead isn't out of mind.
Love the increased planeswalker-count in Jack's list. Dropping a lot of combo-hate, but in this era of miracles it's probably fine. There's some storm, but best game against them is fast combo anyway and 3 E.tutor main should do a little bit more work.
I'm slightly worried about dropping 3sphere/thorn in regard Grixis/UR delver tho, as I find them quite useful there too. But I guess Ajani and Confluence makes up for it?
Wow, this board has been pretty stagnant lately. I guess not much new going on with the deck. No tech from the new set.
So I've been playing the 2 Nahiri, Emrakul main for a while now and actually really like. Or I should say I really like the two Nahiri anyway. They are pure gas and I am never sorry to see them. I had a match yesterday where I was on the play and dropped Nahiri turn one and my opponent scooped. Turns out they were playing Grixis delver so I couldn't believe they scooped game one. Must have had all dazes or something. Nahiri also got me game 2 after they surgicaled my grindstones. People have been doing that to me a lot lately which is kinda funny. I understand the reasoning behind it but I feel like it never works. I just end up beating them to death with my other threats. Did win the Minneapolis SCG IQ a few weeks ago with the deck but then went 3-3 in our local Legacy cup tourney. Bad losses to infect made me squeeze in spellskite to the main again. That's about it.
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I just put the deck together but I haven't actually played it yet, so I have nothing to contribute. It's a pretty stock list right now, but I'd like to experiment with Nahiri and Confluences main at some point because I really like the idea of having those. The list as it stands is below, but I think there are probably tweaks to be made before I run it. Sideboard is just thrown together right now and is something I'll finalize sometime before playing. Local meta is likely to have a pretty good mix of recognizable decks. It's lighter on Miracles and combo, heavier on DnT, Elves, and Nic Fit, and sees regular other decks. I'm realistically unlikely to play it at anything larger than a weekly. Feedback is appreciated.
3 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Plateau
4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB:
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fiery Confluence
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Containment Priest
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Rest in Peace
List seems quite sweet to start out with! Just a couple edits main I'd suggest:
First off, while 20 lands could be nice, 19 has proven to be a sweetspot for the more explosivelist. However you play 6 fetches, so might be fair (slighly better for top, tho I'd like to fill the spot with gas instead).
Other is that I'd only include either Revoker or Magus, with choice depending on meta. It's more of a personal thing, but I've never felt it's neccesary to have both, as recruiter is rarely used for anything else than fetching painter during game 1 anyway.
It would open another space main, where I'd add the second bridge (eventually explsoives as a catch-all). Revoker is also fair in sb (I use needle atm).
But again, these are personal opinions, and your list consist of good choices that can be justified!
Yeah I'm also loving Nahiri and she's not leaving anytime soon. Since I'm playing 2 of her side without alt.ult, I've been playing 1 Ajani sb as well for those grindy matchups where another wincon does work (like bug, DnT, others). Been working great so far, dropping in 3 effective planeswalkers against Miracles is fantastic!
Also hooked up your mention of needle, and I really wonder why it's not been much discussed before. Still works with welder/tutor, and much harder to get rid of than revoker.. I find it pretty great actually, but might be because my meta is low on storm atm.
The main reason for 20 lands is that I'd like to fit a Confluence main, largely as a meta call. Cutting Magus could be a good spot - I'm a lot more likely to see DnT/Elves than Delver or Shardless, so I'd prefer Revoker and you make a good point about the toolbox options. I'm not sure how I feel about a second Bridge main with the ETutors, but that could be a good call.List seems quite sweet to start out with! Just a couple edits main I'd suggest:
First off, while 20 lands could be nice, 19 has proven to be a sweetspot for the more explosive
Other is that I'd only include either Revoker or Magus, with choice depending on meta. It's more of a personal thing, but I've never felt it's neccesary to have both, as recruiter is rarely used for anything else than fetching painter during game 1 anyway.
It would open another space main, where I'd add the second bridge (eventually explsoives as a catch-all). Revoker is also fair in sb (I use needle atm).
But again, these are personal opinions, and your list consist of good choices that can be justified!
I think I'll drop a fetch and Magus in favor of Explosives and something else. I want to play around with a more straightforward (and lower curve) list before moving Nahiri and/or Confluence main, which may reverse my opinion on the land cut but that's for the future. Thanks for the input!
Yeah, I would agree with with most of Morcrux's suggestions. In particular, I think people should be running either a 2/2 or 3/1 split with tutor and bridge. You really want to have relatively good access to it in certain MUs.
This is another personal preference thing maybe, but I think sudden shock has an edge over lightning bolt as burn of choice. It's way better against Miracles as your opponent can often get Mentor over 3 in response to a bolt. Bolt obviously is a little better against Jace and in the mirror, but sudden shock is leaps and bounds better in the the infect, grixis delver, D&T and elves MUs, mostly because your opponent can't respond with things like mother of runes, elemental tokens, growth effects, etc. Having said that, I don't think anyone would necessarily fault you for either one.
@morcrux: yeah, I still go back and forth with that. Needle is obviously way better against Miracles and various lands, but revoker is does have the nod in the Storm MUs and it shuts off opponent's mox diamonds, lotus petals, etc. Both are probably fine against Sneak Attack. If it wasn't for storm I would definitely be on needle.
Hey all, I'm part way through building imperial painter and reading this thread has helped greatly.
During proxy testing I tried a playset of FoWs in a boros only deck, which worked surprisingly well with how easy it is to get painter's servant out. I am not putting them into my build yet due to cost.
In my current list I am running gamble, it has great interaction with welder. What are people's thoughts on gamble in the final build?
I'll put my current list up soon for feedback.
Personally i love gamble, one of my favorite cards evar. It's old tutor tech from mono red builds of old. Only really good with at least three welders in your main.
I used to play gamble (and faithless looting) in Painter, with a funky monoR list including 4 welders and spicy cards like wurmcoil, but to be honnest, it's more funny to play than really effective. The faithless was a nice card, but the gamble was often a dead draw or, if in starting hand, a card more able to destroy a good hand than to build it...
For the force of will question, I almost agree. Yes, it is stong, and you'll often be able to play a painter, but then, why no more pyroblasts ? Ok, it needs one more mana but it induces no card disaventage and can destroy permanents. But, since exiling unnecessary lands for counterspell effect is cool, i choose to play misdirection in sideboard. Misdirection allow to counter a counter if needed (just like a foW) + it is suuuuper strong vs abrupt decay/hymn to tourach/ancestral visions (unlike foW). To conclude, in my opinion : Force of will in painter : no, but misdirection in the side : why not ! :)
Yeah, everyone else has pretty much covered these but I would concur that Gamble is probably only playable in a different build of the deck that ran a full playset of Welders and tricky little things like wurmcoil, mindslaver, LED, etc. You will really wish your Gamble was a tutor when you are trying to land a blood moon or you are playing Grixis delver and they are just picking off your welders.
As for FoW, I agree that I would probably first max out on blasts as they read "hard counter or vindicate" vs ditching a card. That is unless you are actually playing a R/U version of the list where you don't need painter to be out for it to work. I would also then agree that Misdirection would still get the nod over FoW as it can answer abrupt decay and can be pretty back breaking against discard. Again though, I think these cards lead a person to force out their painters early just to expose them to removal before the time is right. It sucks to play your painter in order to turn on your FoW just to have it decay'd or bolted so you have to throw away your FoW and another card against their bolt. Having said that, if you are maxed out on blasts and still want more counterspells, then FoW could definitely be your ticket. Also remember though that it could easily get stranded in your hand which can sometimes hurt. I will purposefully go down on Red Elemental Blasts against decks like Eldrazi or D&T because I don't want to have a hand full of cards I can't play while they are beating my face under my Ensnaring Bridge.
In before the infinite questions of "hey I can't afford recruiters can I still play this guy instead even though it can't grab painter" from new people
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What a brainstorm do? Draw card and activate on draw effects fix hand, removing woods
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Soooooo..... ?In before the infinite questions of "hey I can't afford recruiters can I still play this guy instead even though it can't grab painter" from new people
Can't cast it under blood moon without petals and that makes it real bad with bridges. Not an acceptable substitute in my opinion (but I've been away from the deck for almost a year now).
I always thought recruiter would be cool in modern or standard. It's a shame this dropped in conspiracy.
Edit: The inability to.get painter is a pretty big problem too.
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