[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Warden]

....Honestly I think the biggest question right now is how many Prelates can be squeezed into the main. I am pretty sure once people start testing it, the answer isn't going to be 1. The card is meta-warping.

This. She's not legendary, so the sky is the limit.
On another note, this discussion has me thinking about Phyrexian Metamorph...

[LeoCop 90]

I think going down to 3 thalia (guardian of thraben) is ok. She is still the best hatebear overall, but we have SO MANY good hatebears right now that playing 4x of a legendary creature isn't worth the risk of having copies of it stranded in hand anymore.

I also am a fan of including some kind of mana acceleration in the deck. Basically, our card quality got so high in recent years that one of the main ways we lose is getting killed too fast by combo decks or out-tempoed by fair decks. Not that we should warp anything, but i think a couple ancient tombs, or 1 ancient tomb, 1 chrome mox could help a lot (especially now that mox card-disadvantage is balanced by recruiter)

[Curby]

Forgot who said it, but there's the conventional wisdom that you should swing the pendulum really far when testing out a new card. That way you know for sure if 4 is too many, and can rein it back from there. So yeah, makes sense.

Whoops, I didn't realize the proposed list was actually 69 cards. I was just talking about the "run 4 to test" part, not the "add everything under the sun simultaneously" part. Anyway.

[drunkenboat]

Hi all,
I Just registered, nice to talk with you.
Former D&T player, I was worried about the competitivity of the deck...
But Wizard Just give us three amazing cards with THC, recruiter and priest.
From now on, I think the deck got too many options so in my oppinion the deck does not need other color even a simple splash. Otherwise, It's not a D&T again. Moreover I guess many of us has chosen D&T cause it's a monocolor deck :)

I read your questions and points.

- We have to play 4 Thalia V.1. 3 legendary creatures could be enough but our curve begins to go higher and higher. Too many 3 CCM cards...
- To solve that issue, we have to accelerate the deck : 3 Chrome mox, better than ancient tomb (DT is not a stompy and we need white mana)
- Someone wrotte a key point : there are too many great cards (which is amazing). From now on, we have to choose a plan before starting deckuilding : Tax plan ? Agressive ? Rather stompy ?

I'll try to propose differents lists.

I am french, so forgive my approximative English, I hope I had not mutilate too much Shakespeare language...

[Finn]

Thanks for the contribution, Drunkenboat. I think I agree with the major point, and i suppose most of us have been sloshing that idea around. Let's not screw up the mana curve. Part of the current crop of problems is that we do not entirely know how important Prelate is going to be for this deck. Recruiter is well-studied. THC has proven itself. There have been a number of new ideas that make sense. I feel that we have increased capacity to win the long game. But our short game is not improved. My thinking is that we need to maintain those cards that enable us to make it to the long game. Drawing an extra TGT sucks, but we are better equipped than ever to handle that scenario. Holding a grip full of stuff that costs 3 is not solved by the new toys. So with these things in mind, I have an updated preliminary decklist to propose.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
7 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull


Sideboard
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Veteran Armorer
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest In Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor

Note that I have swapped two Horizon Canopy for Caverns of Souls. And notice the Chrome Mox additions in place of two Plains. I'm looking forward to exiling a TGT to the mox to power out a duplicate on turn 1.

[iatee]

If we're gonna play acceleration, I think it might be better off in the SB, for the matchups where you really absolutely need it. At the end of the day, we're still a fair control deck, and fair control decks don't want to be topdecking Chrome Moxes and starting games off behind on resources. (Or with 12 Life thanks to Ancient Tomb.) I just don't think we need to be upping the variance in the deck.

Finn, as far as the short game goes, playing large numbers of Path to Exile in the SB has proven great for me. Make sure you don't die the first few turns and then just play better cards than they do the rest of the game. Doesn't help against all fast combo, but helps against the majority of the decks that beat us with speed. (Reanimator, Burn, Eldrazi, Delver, Infect.)

[drunkenboat]

I do like your list.
Maybe I'd change some details :
You play 15 humans. Wouldn't be better with 3 caverns of souls ?
4 Karakas sounds too Much. You play 2 chrome mox, you can put out one karakas in my opinion.
If You play 2 chrome mox and only 2 caverns of souls, maybe you can play just 3 mom but 4 SFM. SFm stays in the curve and is the best DT's créature with Thalia V.1. Plus, we don't play Serra avenger anymore. We need some threads to put the pressure. Jitte Sfi and batterskull have to touch the board as soon as possible.

[Curby]

@Finn, interesting looking list. My main concern is that it drops much of the air force which was historically important in blocking Delvers, getting Jitte counters against Wirewood Symbiote, etc. I get that the new additions help against those matchups too, so it will be nice to see how things shake out. I'm also curious how staying on 23 mana sources (instead of adding artifacts beyond 23) will play out.

P.S. Moms and Thalia-1s being the only playsets is a good sign: it means we have so many good cards that we can't find the room to run playsets.

[drunkenboat]

@Finn, interesting looking list. My main concern is that it drops much of the air force which was historically important in blocking Delvers, getting Jitte counters against Wirewood Symbiote, etc. I get that the new additions help against those matchups too, so it will be nice to see how things shake out.

I agree. Maybe we have to play 4 flickerswip. 2 avenger ? 1 Vryn ?

[drunkenboat]

I propose :

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan
3 Karakas
2 Caverns of soul
4 Plains
2 Canopy horizon

3 Chrome mox

3 Mother of runes
2 Serra avenger
4 Thalia gardian of the thraben
4 Stoneforge mystic
1 Phyrexian revokater
4 Recruiter of the guard
4 Flickerswipp
2 Sanctum prelate
1 Mirran cruisader
1 Mangarra of the condor
1 banisher priest


4 Swords to plowshares
1 Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
1 batterskull
4 aether vial

[monovfox]

revoker should never go below 3 IMO. The card is one of our best turn 2's. Same with thalia. Remember, if we get behind early we usually stay behind.

Also if we're running recruiter we should definitely be running eldrazi displacer. The value is unreal.

[Curby]

Also if we're running recruiter we should definitely be running eldrazi displacer. The value is unreal.

I was an early fan of Displacer, and would love to see it work. Unfortunately, it's not tutorable, we can't afford to run too many copies, and randomly lucksacking into one at the exact right time is too unreliable.

[iatee]

Flickerwisp already essentially plays the Recruiter engine role. Can't afford a 3 drop that you can't tutor.

[monovfox]

It's not like our deck is suddenly completely reliant on recruiter to do anything. Displacer is a fine card to draw by itself.

[drunkenboat]

Displacer is not tutorable, it does not fly, CCM is 3 in our deck which is overwelhmed by CCM 3 cards.
I played it in small tournaments and does not help me as Much as I wished.
Does not help VS Miracle, Storm, Elves, Burn.
Nevertheless, it's good against Eldrazi, mirror and BUG. SB card ?

[redtwister]

@Finn
I suppose if we use cards]Chrome Mox[/cards] to power out creatures a small percentage of the time, that is the way to do it.

In general on our relative CMC, I would like to propose we consider the following numbers and compare them to, say this list from Japan, or the 5th place list from the SCG Classic in Dallas. I am not here concerned with whether the card is merely CMC X, but whether or not it can be played on curve as CMC X.

A new list would probably look close to this (I am not adding in Chrome Mox, that would make this harder to do at the moment.)
CMC 1: 12
4 Mom
4 Vial
4 StP

CMC 2: 11
4 TGT
3 SFM
1 Revoker
1 SotL
1 Jitte

CMC 3: 13
3 Recruiter
3 THC
3 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Stonecloaker
1 SoFaI

CMC 5: 1
1 Batterskull

Yamashita Taiki's list is below (and he ran an odd list with 28 creatures and note that I am considering Serra Avenger a 3-drop as far as being on curve is concerned because it can be played on turn 3 only with Vial and becomes a turn 4 play if we have to hard cast it.)
CMC 1: 12
4 Mom
4 Vial
4 StP

CMC 2: 14
4 TGT
4 SFM
3 Revoker
2 SotL
1 Jitte

CMC 3: 12
3 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran
1 Mangara
1 Brimaz
1 SoFaI

CMC 5: 1
1 Batterskull

Steven Fremin's list from SCG Classic Dallas is next. his list is classic. Sure, he could have had Mirran Crusaders, Brimaz, and Serra Avenger, but that doesn't impact the cards playable on turn 3. The only way he could have had a better 2:3 ratio would be to add 1-2 Spirit of the labyrinth because there is no other 2-drop that anyone regularly plays in the main.
CMC 1: 12
4 Mom
4 Vial
4 StP

CMC 2: 13
4 TGT
4 SFM
4 Revoker
1 Jitte

CMC 3: 11
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 SoFaI

CMC 5: 1
1 Batterskull

This is a shift from 12/14/12 in one competitive list and 12/13/11 in another competitive list to roughly 12/11/13. I don't think these examples are unusual because a lot of players who win run 1+ Mirran Crusader, 2+ Serra Avenger and 3+ Flickerwisp. In fact, it is very rare to see a deck with less than 10 cards that are effectively CMC 3, in part because the best 2-drops in the deck remain Thalia 1.0, Stoneforge Mystic, and Phyrexian Revoker. We have gotten some great 3-drops but we have seen only a single major 2-drop since Thalia 1.0, Spirit of the Labyrinth, and no one has run more than 2 of those main since Treasure Cruise was banned, and that is rare enough.

We are talking cmc 2 going from 21.67% of the 60 to 18.33% and cmc 3 going from 18.33% to 21.67% of the 60. I think if that is the shift, it is not going to punish us nearly as often as the additional power and consistency gained by the new cards will improve it. Realistically, I would suggest that at least 25-50% of the time, Serra Avenger has to be considered as played on turn 4.

I would also like to mention that while Thalia in your opening hand is pretty much always what you want to see Game 1, there are many match-ups where SfM and Revoker on turn 3 or 4 is just fine (the exceptions being creature combo, but against non-creature combo I want Thalia and then Revoker anyway, but against Painter I want Revoker. I want Revoker + SfM against Elves and even there I probably play SfM, get Jitte, and see if there is something I absolutely, positively have to Revoker instead of just getting in Jitte. Against Sneak and Show I want Revoker with Thalia, and Thalia still gets played first.)

So if we are not reducing Thalia for non-creature combo, nothing we are doing makes those games worse overall, nor does it reduce our chance to hit a valid 2 drop overall.

Against Delver, sure I am happy to see SfM or SotL turn 2, but I would still really want to hit Thalia more so. In fact, I want Mom-Thalia-whatever as my curve or Vial, Thalia, vial in Mom in response to protect it, then everything else.

In other words, the key is to not reduce the number of Mother of Runes, Aether Vial, Swords to Plowshares, and Thalia 1.0 because those are the cards we want to see with the highest consistency. I also left out that frequently our best turn 2 play is tap them down with Rishadan Port...

Of course, for people who want to take out a Mom or drop even more CMC 2, then the shift is considerably bigger and something like maindeck Chrome Mox makes sense. I would like someone better at maths than I am to give me an idea of how likely I am to see a 3 drop and a Chrome Mox in my opening 7 and 8, if I run 2 or 3 of them. Also, it would be good to know what 21 lands and 2 Chrome Mox does to our mulligans, whcih are currently very good because it seems to me that we end up risking tossing our only playable spell in a mulligan to 5 slightly more frequently, which I do not like.

[drunkenboat]

@redtwister :
It dépends on how many drop 2 you are playing.
Indeed Chrome mox is valuable to Play drop 2 turn one.
TGT or SFM for sure.
I was refered to chrome mox because now you have potentially 8 CA cards (SFM and recruiter) and You Can play horizon canopy.
You are right : avenger is a turn 3 or 4. But what flying creatures do we have ?

[Finn]

This is a good perspective, Redtwister. My thinking is also along those lines. It would suck to draw two Chrome Mox in a single game, but I think that the benefits of having it in your opening grip would be pretty huge. And my point is that our ability to win the long game appears to have gotten better, if only we can get there in good shape. My substitution of Chrome Mox in place of Plains is not primarily designed to make up for the missing percentage points of 2-drops. It is meant to take advantage of the superior cards and card advantage made available to us so that we can steal extra games that we would otherwise have lost simply by getting out ahead.

A note on this: I get in a lot of semi-casual play - for years now. That means that I get to try out stuff that we normally don't see in D+T. My experience with Loxodon Gatekeeper led me to see immediately what THC would be like. Similarly, I get to play with a Mox Pearl in this environment - long story. I can tell you that getting Aven Mindcensor or Batterskull on turn 2, or TGT on turn 1 moves the game considerably to your advantage. I can only imagine the benefits of Prelate or THC on turn 2.

There will be card disadvantage. Iatee makes a good point. But we now have more card advantage than we have ever had before. And stronger control cards. I want to see if it is worth it. That is the way traditional stax does it. With stronger lock parts, maybe we can too. I would also consider going with one Chrome Mox and one Ancient Tomb. That might work.

[redtwister]

@Finn and drunkenboat
I'm not against Chrome Mox per se and it might even make a lot of sense with Recruiter, THC, Prelate and SfM. I would love to play all of our most powerful hate a turn earlier!!!

I am against the panic over a presumed but unproven dramatic shift in our ability to make critical turn 2 plays. Our best turn 2 plays are typically Thalia, SfM, Rishadan Port activation and Revoker, and roughly in that order, Game 1, with my noted exceptions. Game 2, we are siding in 2 drops still anyway.

It would be good to have some maths around it though, to sharpen and focus the picture, as it were, and I would definitely like to know the impact on mulligans. That is important to me because I think DnT has always mulliganed well because of our redundancy, but now we are talking more 1-ofs and maybe cards that require us to discard cards.

[iatee]

With 2 Chrome Mox in the deck, we'd see one about 20% of opening hands. Can just pretend you'll always have 2 white cards to make things easier. With 4 and 4 we see a SfM or Thalia about 65% of the time. Rough estimate, 10-15% of hands would have busted t1 plays, more would have busted t2 plays. But 80% of games Chrome Mox isn't in your opening hand. It's a very, very bad card to draw into, it's essentially the same as skipping your draw step. People can (and should) test with it, but I already know what the results are gonna be. "Sometimes it was awesome and sometimes it was terrible." I would rather play a consistent deck - we're trying to lower the inconsistency of a higher curve but we're doing it by adding the same (if not more) inconsistency elsewhere. I don't think Chrome Mox and Aether Vial are ever going to be good fits in the same deck. I'd even play a Spirit Guide over it - you can at least Vial that dude in.