I liked the article- relevant information as always, but I'm not thrilled with hitting unused Wipe-Aways off of Ad Nauseum if I get to go off- but I do like its versatility and some good points are made in regards to its uses against miracles. I think the Thoughtseize plan is the best option thus far and requires minimal adjustment to accommodate; for some people they were already playing some number of Thoughtseize SB anyway. Fetching a land to fire off a Thoughtseize sucks, but flipping Wipe Away off of Ad Nauseum feels worse, especially knowing there are 3 of them to hit in addition to Tendrils.
So far it looks like D&T players seem more excited about Recruiter than they do Prelate and most of the discussions I've read are debating this guy. Prelates seem to be winding up being a 3x with a 2-1 or 1-2 split between SB/MB. Prelate is not particularly good against Eldrazi, which at least partially explains the reluctance to go any higher than 2x, and Recruiter is really good in fair matchups but really terrible against Storm and friends.
If this trend sticks, I'm not planning on making any major changes over a 1x prelate MB or even a 2x here and there. I think 3 would have to be the norm for me to start really worrying and if you want to run a Recruiter toolbox, go for it, because I'm fine with you using T3 to play a Recruiter. As long as I was able to deal with the same problems I've had to deal with before on T2 via Therapy, I'm probably going off that turn anyway.
Having said that, I think prelate's biggest impact isn't finding a way to necessarily deal with the card herself, but underscoring the importance of being execute the primary strategy of "kill 'em before it's relevant" and go off before it comes down, and that means being more proactive. The gameplan remains the same, but its execution is now more important. Before, you could take out Thalia and Revoker, maybe even Massacre their field and on T3 you might see a Flickerwisp hit but you didn't care and killed them. Or maybe they drew another Thalia and now you have to figure out how to deal with this one, but you're a long way from dead, and while the gameplan was to kill them before the hate could come online, and you've got to grind more than you'd like, you're still in this. Now you can take out Thalia and Revoker and whatever else, but the worst thing IS now the 3 drop because unless you're prepared, you just lose if you can't find that single ETW and make a threat.
To this end I think that I will keep Duress mainboarded, and swap them for Thoughtseizes out of the sideboard, but not necessarily for Prelate, but moreover extra insurance that I'm able to strip the T2 threat. Thoughtseize is not a great wishboard tool in the D&T matchup anyway, nor is Duress MB that great either. I still want to try Sudden Demise (I like that it's Wishable in games where Prelate isn't a factor but dudes need to die, like Elves or and it will likely swap from the SB for Duress #3, but I'm back to being less concerned about Prelate against D&T......and they seem way more interested than Miracles does. Miracles doesn't seem to care for the WW in its casting cost and I will only sideboard for it if it comes down against me- maybe not even then. Which will almost certainly eventually cost me a game here and there, but preparing for something that doesn't wind up being there seems like a worse option. Does it ruin my life if it sticks? Sure. But whoever the Miracles player playing a significant number of them is is also losing games because of the mana struggle whatever they gave up in order to weasel any number of these into the sideboard/mainboard. It's also too symmetrical for them the MD I feel.
Prelate makes me want to do what I'm trying to do against D&T anyway even more. Deal with the 2 drop on T1, and give Mom 14 goblins to babysit on T2. Thoughtseize is the tool to not only do that, but also adapt to situations where I can't quite go off, but where I already took care of Thalia and I don't want to get locked out on T3. Prelate also seems to have a "win more" feel against fair decks and a "high risk, high reward" against unfair ones in the sense that unless D&T can protect itself before the magic bullet gets there, all Prelate is doing is slowing the deck down against combo. No D&T player wants to open a hand of Flickerwisp, Prelate, Thalia 2.0, Recruiter, Wasteland, Vial, Plains. Replace the Recruiter and the Prelate with a Thalia 1.0 and a Revoker and you have a solid keeper. Something has to give, you only have 60 cards to work with and weaseling in 2 new 3cc creatures is not an easy thing to do in any number without sacrificing something TES can capitalize on in return. I am hoping Prelate has a backfiring effect of enabling us to execute our strategy of "winning before the hate comes down" if people try to jam too many in or give up too many 2 drops in favor of the "I win" button that they hopefully will never get to press.
If the discussions surrounding this card hold true and these are the numbers we'll be realistically facing:
For D&T vs TES: Prelate will mean minor sideboard adjustment, maybe even none at all if some people are already playing a pair of Thoughtseize.
For Miracles vs TES: The jury is still out on this one on if they will actually run it out of the board or not, and in what number.
Please D&T. Cut some Revokers to make room for Prelate/Recruiter. Please?
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Thoughtseize
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Massacre
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Dark Petition
1x Void Snare
1x Wipe Away or Sudden Demise
You're thinking very narrowly. What do you do against Prelate out of Miracles? Lose?
Ad Nauseam against Miracles isn't always meant to be a sure-fire kill, it's part of the reason we board out Chrome Mox. It's to gain resources over them in the attrition war and possibly set up for a Past in Flames the following turn if we can't kill them.
I see no reason why D&T should ever cut around their hate rather than their fatties. Mirran Crusader, Serra Avenger, Brimaz and Co. are the cards which will be replaced. To lean wide out of the window: I can see Plows being moved to the SB for Prelates + Recruiter with the increased access to blockers and equipment
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
Originally Posted by Echelon
If prelate becomes more prominent in Miracles, I think I'd probably look at doing something along the lines of:
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Wipe Away
2x Thoughtseize
1x Massacre
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Dark Petition
1x Void Snare
Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but I haven't seen Miracles openly discussing Prelate for any reason other than their fears of it. I'm operating under the assumption that it's not a known threat in Miracles. Yet. Your article assumes it ends up getting played there, which is of course entirely possible. So I guess that until I stumble across the card getting love in Miracles, my gameplan if it does pop up is, yes, lose to the occasional person testing it out, as opposed to overpreparing for a card that isn't seeing play there outside of testing.
@Lemnear: Yeah, I know, you're right, just wishful thinking on my part. :)
Meh, I don't think a 3cc bounce spell and cutting Abrupt Decay is the answer, you just end up being worse vs Thalia etc. so I would rather go with MD Thoughtseize and dedicated 1cc creature removal in the SB instead.
You mean a plan I'm already doing? (Thoughtseize)
Did you even read it? Where did I advocate for Decays and Wipe Away against Death & Taxes?
Yes I read it, my point was if you're playing with Wipe Aways in your SB then you are not playing with 4 Abrupt Decays or any creature spot removal in those slots, leaving you with a card you can't play vs D&T, a worse card vs Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst and less cards for Eldrazi overall. Meaning I think its better to continue to play the most efficient answers to our problems even if that makes them less general answers i.e. more Abrupt Decay and Disfigure (or whatever) over Wipe Away.
Wipe Away is an awful card, and even tho Prelate is a serious threat I think if we are going to play 3cc bounce for it then they dont even need to draw the card for it to screw us over. Creature spot removal is good vs Prelate and the whole rest of the deck.
The point here is that Decay+Wipe can be boarded against Miracles even if it turns the Ad Nauseams to shit, but obviously both cards are mediocre to underwhelming if you look at Eldrazi or D&T. I think its impossible to find a reasonable split to fight Miracles w/ Prelate, standard Miracles, Eldrazi and D&T at this point without a blindspot in the board.
For the D&T and Eldrazi matchup, I recently thought of DROP OF HONEY. Would test TEFERIS REALM instead of WipeAway due to its ability to wipe Artifacts/Creatures/Enchantments on demand
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
great card, one of my favourite. I thought in the past to use it, but I don't like to fetch for green on t1 (that's why I don't play carpet of flowers) and against chalice-deck it's risky.....but against D&T is really good, I think it's better than disfigure/massacre nowadays.
Abrupt Decay is at least playable vs D&T and Eldrazi, where Wipe Away is absolutely not. I think we just have to accept that Miracles or Blade, if they SB Prelate, goes from a bad to unwinnable matchup and move on to boarding for the matchups we still have a fighting chance against. Dealing with this card behind a solid aggro-control or control shell just isn't going to happen, where dealing with this card in aggro-prison is still reasonable.
At the end of the day, we don't know if Prelate will see play in Miracles or Blade, but we do know it will see play in D&T, that D&T will increase in popularity and the deck can still be beat regardless of if it does ... so that looks like the most logical place to concentrate our efforts. I mean Miracles can just choose to bury the Storm match up if it wants to one way or the other, that's really control's perrogative.
How often are you siding in all 4 copies of Abrupt Decay, plus Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapor and Grapeshot against Death & Taxes? It's irrelevant that Wipe Away isn't good against D&T because it's intended use isn't for that match-up. If for some reason, you do want Abrupt Decay, there's still three in the sideboard, bringing you up to seven cards you can side in. Enjoy finding seven cards to take out.
As for the Chalice decks, there's still three Abrupt Decay and the pair of Echoing Truth (Maybe the Chain of Vapor too). Five to six slots. There's really only four you want to take out in that match-up (Ponder).
As I said in the article, Wipe Away is for Miracles. You have other cards for the other match-ups. Wipe Away isn't effecting those match-ups anyway, they were fucking Xantid Swarms over a month ago.
I am SBing in every card on the draw, so Wipe Away is 3 less cards I can't SB in. I have no problem finding the space for all of it, 6 maybe 7 cards, as I'm not particularly fond of Empty the Warrens or Cabal Therapy on the back foot. If you want to play Wipe Away just for Miracles, suit yourself, but I'd rather not play 3 cards in my SB that are strictly worse vs Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top than Abrupt Decay and completely unplayable vs any other deck on top of cutting discard and letting more Counterbalance/Sensei's Diviing Tops resolve for a possible 2xSanctum Prelate in their SB.
So like I said, I would rather go the Disfigure route vs D&T than the Wipe Away route vs Miracles for a deck I know will increase in popularity and will play the card.
In the Article, I gave no recommendation for the "Miracles with Prelate" Scenario, despite talking about it, because I wasn't sure there is THE clever fix to this classic problem we all should remember from Leyline of Sanctity and the related question of "do we sideboard bounce if its unclear if the opponent has Leylines?". So unless you try to be very clever using cards which remove CounterTop with a second ability for creatures which are 3cc+ on cast/flip like WipeAway you will end up having to accept losses against such builds of miracles.
Personally, I don't see TES' manabase and gameplan suited to support 3cc jacks-of-all-traits. If ANT players with their 14-15 lands and 2-3 basics wanna run 3cc cards against Chalice with or w/o legs, I can get behind that, also because they don't rely on Ad Nasueam as much as TES does, so from a TES POV, I would agree with Final Fortune and increase 1cc removal with the expectable rise of hatebear.dec in the metagame and ignore the cancerous POTENTIAL Miracle builds for the time being
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
The difference between ignoring shitty decks that play Leyline and Miracles, is that Miracles is 20% of the metagame.
I could see scaling back to 2 Wipeaway and adding the 4th Decay back in, but I think Wipe Away is actually pretty terrific against Miracles as it stops Top floating Flusterstorm as well.
Thats why I will wait on the actual numbers of Miracles picking up the tech, before building sideboards for that and rather look at D&T and the like which will include the card with a guarantee
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
The other route worth considering under the Doomsday scenario is just abandoing Green and Abrupt Decay altogether and going for the 4 Empty the Warrens plan, convert Bayou into the 3rd /r land and you get to play Pulverize for Chalice of the Void decks and have space left over for creature removal or bounce etc.
Edit: Yeah I looked thru' a lot of the Miracles and Blade threads and nobody is really interested in playing Sanctum Prelate, I think it's going to be a strictly D&T and Maverick card as everybody else is put off by WW.
Just play 1cc removal and the world keeps spinning.
Nah, no removal is crazy as you lose on a resolved CB. Decay + several EtW is something I promoted for D&T and Miracles in the past and as I am still on 4 EtW in the 75, I might just stick to that and call it a day, thinking about it.
The only thing what could sell me WipeAway is the idea of cutting green altogether as a result.
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
That's the other option, but I think we'd get really screwed by Chalice of the Void decks if we had to rely on a 3cc removal there, the thing about Abrupt Decay is that it's good vs Miracles and cheap enough to be cost efficient removal vs Chalice of the Void, Thorn of Amethyst or a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
I'm kind of wondering if D&T and Maverick hit their stride whether or not the Grape Shot/Void Snare slot should end up as a Deathmark, so you have your wishable out vs Gaddok Teeg and insane spot removal post-board? Prelate makes Grape Shot seem kind of shitty as anything other than a redundant kill condition vs Miracles.
Do you think we could just get by with the set of Abrupt Decay vs Eldrazi and trade in the Grape Shot and bounce for the black removal cards? Bears seem like they are going to be way more of a thing if Prelate sees play in aggro shells.
Deathmark is really narrow. It would take a major metagame shift for me to include one in the board with such limited space. I'm only playing this in the wishboard if Gaddock Teeg and Prelate cause hatebears and D&T to become more representative of the meta. Till then, I think I'd rather test with Sudden Demise. It can deal with Revokers which I'm more likely to run into than Prelate G1 and G2 it's getting brought into the MD just like Deathmark would be since Prelate cuts off access to it if you leave it in your 15.
I would also like to test Wipe Away. Don't get me wrong, that 3cc is about as unappealing as 4cc is for Death and Taxes, but some people are making arguments for Restoration Angel there, and Bryant really likes the card for a reason, so there's no harm in trying it out for myself. Many cards in various decks I've had a skeptical eye about till I actually used them. Sometimes I was right, sometimes I was pleasantly surprised. But I am leaning more towards a pair and playing 4x Decay as opposed to 3 and 3 if I do try it.
If I'd play 1cc hatebear removal it either be Disfigure or DreadOfNight (depending on slots). For the Eldrazi plague, I'd go with EtW+Decay as well
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote