nice analysis. In fact, Rip is VERY good only against lands, maybe bug to stop deathrite and tarmo (but I prefer StP for this). Against dredge/reanimetor faster cards are better: tormond, cage, surgical, karakas and bojuka (tutorable with crop rotation). Absolute law GREAT against land/jund but in these matchups also other cards are good (surgical basically, vines and counter if grove is not into play). Against burn maybe absolute law is very good.Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk
Basically, the difference is StP, that is in my opinion one of the strongest non-blue card in the format. Yes, we have dismember, piracy charm, submerge.... nothing strong like StP.
Can this be relevant in a local meta full of D&T/miracle? (mainly D&T, I suppose StP is quite bad against miracle)
It's true, StP is far and away better than cards like Piracy Charm or Dismember. Submerge is amazing in the matchup's it's good against but obviously it's very narrow as well. I can't argue with the StP comment but I also don't find there's really anything I NEED to get rid of. Peacekeeper is rarely a thing, and even if it was, Piracy Charm could be used instead and not require the splash. StP is great against Merit Lage and Tarmo's but Inkmoth and Blighted Agent both get around the latter. Lands is a deck I fear very much and the white splash is what I'd pack if I was expecting to face that deck often enough to warrant the selection, else, I'd personally just stick to the U/G sideboard. It really does come down to personal preference though.
RiP is also excellent but it's excellent against the same kinds of decks --- Lands, 4c Loam, maybe Shardless as well ? I find Surgical does the job plenty against the latter and I bring in Submerge against Shardless to put those pesky Tarmo's on top of their library (doing so in response to a fetch is pure money).
Absolute Law is actually one of my favorite white-based SB cards for Infect, it's a house against burn and lands with their punishing fire combo. I just don't face these decks often enough to warrant the white splash and that's basically what it boils down to IMO. StP isn't the greatest against Miracles but I find we have a pretty good matchup against that deck anyways, so I don't really bring in much extra in the way of sideboarding (tho, make sure Sylvan Library is brought in, if you don't have it in your main deck). D&T I don't play against often enough to offer a fair comment, it's surprisingly very sparsely played here for some reason.
RiP is only very good against lands, but I still bring it in (along with Surgical and Cage if I'm boarding Cage) against Reanimator and Dredge. It's also good against any deck playing Snapcaster or Deathrite.
Absolute Law is actually my favourite card to play off of the white splash in my meta. Not necessarily for Burn though. It's good against Burn, but usually Vines is enough. They also slow down enough if they start pointing too many spells at our infecters. I really like Absolute Law against Grixis Delver, which I find the toughest matchup and any deck running Punishing Fire. I've also brought it in against some Miracles players if I see or already know they're bringing some combination of bolts/blast/staticaster/wear tear. It's been really great for me in any match up that turns into a war of attrition if we can't find an early kill.
My meta's actually really Goyf-lite, so I find StP is the card that I end up bringing in the least out of RiP/RiP/STP/STP/Absolute Law.
I'm running Savannah main deck as well with 3 Trops and haven't had many issues. There are definitely the odd awkward hands like RhoxWarMonk described, but not enough that I'm hesitant to have it in my 60.
TL;DR against my meta (heavy on Lands, red Delver variants, Punishing Fire) I love the white splash. I do think some of the more streamlined blue/green builds are better during an unknown meta though.
All this ^ Well said.
Agree. I forgot the Rip cuts off become immense however.....I think I will replace it.
why do you think is better vs grixis rather than burn? burn has more shots than grixis, can be difficult save a creature. It doesn't have counter or removal for enchantment, when you cast absolute law you really have an advantage. Using hierarc to block goblin guide or swiftspear is huge. In grixis is good, not great imho. Maybe I will add it against this deck, I don't know, still have to build my sideboard.Absolute Law is actually my favourite card to play off of the white splash in my meta. Not necessarily for Burn though. It's good against Burn, but usually Vines is enough. They also slow down enough if they start pointing too many spells at our infecters. I really like Absolute Law against Grixis Delver, which I find the toughest matchup and any deck running Punishing Fire. I've also brought it in against some Miracles players if I see or already know they're bringing some combination of bolts/blast/staticaster/wear tear. It's been really great for me in any match up that turns into a war of attrition if we can't find an early kill.
I'll do the same, I don't like to waste slot in my sideboard for land that can be played MD.I'm running Savannah main deck as well with 3 Trops and haven't had many issues. There are definitely the odd awkward hands like RhoxWarMonk described, but not enough that I'm hesitant to have it in my 60.
I still run one BI and just cut it in when I bring in RiP
It's still good in Burn and I bring it in. But if Burn starts blowing spells on our guys, especially if we can blank them with Daze, Pierce, etc, a few times they slow down enough that they're going to have a tough time killing us. Once they're out of spells in hand, it's hard for them to get there, so if they're using 3-4 on trying and sometimes failing to remove our creatures, they're already not in a great shape. Plus, if they tap out when we have cards in hand and a creature on board, they only have one possible play and that's probably not enough to not die.why do you think is better vs grixis rather than burn? burn has more shots than grixis, can be difficult save a creature. It doesn't have counter or removal for enchantment, when you cast absolute law you really have an advantage. Using hierarc to block goblin guide or swiftspear is huge. In grixis is good, not great imho. Maybe I will add it against this deck, I don't know, still have to build my sideboard.
Delver doesn't need to bolt us in the face to win. They can beat down with Delver, which also takes out Inkmoth, go wide with Young Pyro (and leave tokens up to block Elf), and they don't need to blow out their hand to race us, since they can Wasteland/Stifle/Daze/Therapy to keep us in check. So, for Delver, pointing Bolts effects at our creatures doesn't slow down their primary win con as much. They still have a lot of tools against us even with Absolute Law in play, but I think it makes our worst match up winnable. Whereas, I'm not really overly scared of Burn, even when I don't draw Absolute Law.
gotcha, thanks for the explanation, everything makes sense.
Hey all! So, for the last few games against Eldrazi I've played, I have cut Glistener Elf during boarding, and have been getting decent results (I didn't always win, but the absence of Elf was irrelevant). My reasoning was that I wanted to keep the blue count to 20 for force, plus the little guy rarely if ever manages to get through. I replaced them with random goodies like Corrupter and Maze of Ith; overall I was liking the setup. I realized afterwards that this was the first time I had sided them out literally ever, and wondered what you guys think about it. Do you ever side out G.E., and if so, when? Or is losing the chance of turn 2 kills not worth the extra slots for sideboard cards? In the case of Eldrazi, has having chump blockers to buy time won you games? Just curious.
I've cut an Elf or 2 on the Draw vs. Shardless, DnT, Eldrazi and Elves before. I imagine you could against other decks with fast creatures that can block him also. Like you mentioned however I'm usually bringing in Corruptor and a second Crop Rotation so its kinda like you got 2 better creatures instead?
Pretty much, i used to run necropede, he would be the kind of dude to bring in. I guess when I first started playing the deck (coming from modern infect, where there are more cards that let the elf through like apostles blessing, rancor, distortion strike), i was so enamoured with the speed of the deck that i made a subconscious decision to never cut him so as not to lose the chance of a quick kill. Turns out legacy doesn't work that way; all the decks are so efficient, and interaction starts at turn one. Now that i am confident enough to try to go for longer, grindier games, i am seeing that i sort of had a blind spot in my sideboarding technique. At the same time though, those aforementioned cards (d.strike, etc) could go a little ways toward making g.e. more relevant, however, they would be dead cards in combo matchups. Thanks for the input!
Hey all, longtime Shardless player here getting a little burned out with the deck, and looking to pick up something new. I played a bit of infect back in the original INN block and have been goldfishing with legacy infect and it seems really powerful. I have a few questions about lists and card choices, as I'm looking to assemble a fairly stock list until I can playlist with it enough to make it my own.
- My meta is very combo heavy, is it reasonable to leave 4 forces main and move the Sylvan Library to the board?
- Why are a lot of decks dropping the 1-of GSZ? It seems great to find an Elf or Hierarch and it's an extra shuffle effect.
- Why are a lot of lists dropping more and more Vines? It seems like great protection for G and the kicked effect seems good in a pinch.
- I might be taking the deck to EE5 with a more open meta, would you recommend the white SB package for more diversity?
- Is 2 Become Immense awkward feeling in live games? I've seen some awkward goldfished hands but the card seems nuts
Thanks much in advance!
@TheHeff:
1) Yes, that seems reasonable if you don't have weaker candidates for cutting. Sylvan Library is a crucial card to have against slower combo decks, such as Aluren, but I board it out vs. fast combo (such as against Charbelcher last night) because all that usually matters is the first two turns.
2) Glistener Elf isn't a particularly good creature. Its strength is that it comes down on Turn 1. Zenithing up one is paying extra for your worst infector and isn't something you can do Turn 1. The strength of Green Sun's Zenith is its utility. If you are maximizing its utility, you'll want to run a package of 1 to 3 cards that it can fetch. The most common targets are Viridian Corruptor and Dryad Arbor. Crop Rotation packages can serve similar purposes. Space is tight in this deck. Sometimes the package is worth having; sometimes it's not. You'll need to log lots of real games before you figure out which package, if any, is best for your build. It always comes down to what decks you expect to face and what matchups you want to improve.
3) Vines is a mana-hungry card unless you're going to use it as a Stifle or an Apostle's Blessing. Vines is good when you can play a slower game, and it's at its best when people play their removal spell at the wrong time and get blown out by it. Infect has had a lot of exposure in Modern and Legacy, and most people know the proper times to play their removal spells, so the card has become strategically weaker.
4) I play the white sideboard with Swords to Plowshares and Rest in Peace. I don't feel the need for anything beyond that, although some posters have had good results with Absolute Law.
5) I play 2 Become Immense and have almost since its time of release. The card is very easy to turn on with fetchlands and cantrips. That said, you should board it out if you bring in Rest in Peace.
Is there ever a case for running 4x Berserk? I have 2 and am debating the merits of a playset while they're reasonably priced
Last edited by walked; 09-03-2016 at 02:07 PM.
If you go the 4 berserk route, you'll probably want more pump to accompany it, to ensure the likelihood of berserk+pump spell being in your opening hand. If you go by force of will rules, 16 would the baseline, which admittedly is a lot of pump, too much if you want to run forces. Look up olle rade's old lists, he had 4 might of old krosa, 4 vines, 4 invigorate, 4 berserk. No force in the main, 4 daze 4(!)spell pierce. He started to lean away from the all-in approach, and after tom ross made a few changes from olle's updated list, the rest is history. I have wondered if occasionally the meta would be right for a 4 berserk deck; the only reason i havent tried 3 is that its a substantial investment for a card i might not want later...by all means proxy it up and get back to us with some results!
I only wish I had more berserks when I'm playing against elves or other decks that have lots of chump blockers for Glistener elf. That said, the slots you need to free for it are a real cost. Also, berserk is not a pump spell, instead it needs one. That's the reason we play only two in the first place.
Berserk encourages the all-in plan. By now we all should know that the strength of this deck comes from the fact that it can win rather easily without going all-in. More hierarchs would serve the deck better than more berserks.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
So long-time lurker, first poster. My first legacy deck was a B/G infect homebrew featuring dark ritual and phyrexian crusader, but when I got a set of FoW for christmas about 3 years ago, I transitioned over to U/G and it’s been my main legacy deck ever since (with occasional forays into Grixis Delver). Lately I’ve been playing Grixis Control or BUG walkers to keep things interesting, but when I put my set of polluted deltas into a B/R reanimator build for a friend, it was infect or bust for SCG Richmond.
List (kinda sorta)
(actual MD had +1 Pendlehaven, -1 fetch, actual SB had +1 flusterstorm, +1 pithing needle, +1 bojuka bog)
Deck was tuned for my local meta, which has lots of chalice and very few blue decks. I meant to adjust it for a larger metagame the night before, but instead hung out with my neighbor drinking homebrew, which was 1000% the correct choice, both for my own enjoyment and, as it turned out, strategically.
Rd 1 -- Angel Stompy (2-1)
G1: I mull to 6 on the play and keep an extremely risky hand with zero land but probe and a potential t2 kill. I scry a non-land to the bottom and probe to see Chalice, Chrome Mox, 2x Suppression Field, Exalted Angel, and freaking Windborn Muse (all Russian/Korean). I laugh like crazy, draw another non-land, and pass the turn. He slams Chalice and I strongly consider immediately conceding, but I draw a land and have blighted agent + double invigorate in hand. He drops Suppression Field and I strongly consider conceding again, but I fetch out Tropical Island in response instead, figuring I at least have a line if I hit another land. Two draws later, I find my second land, but it’s a fetch, and concede.
G2: I bring in the artifact hate and extra wasteland. My hand is solid, but with my only permission as Spell Pierce, I have a choice to play Noble t1 or hold SP up to catch a potential Chalice. Figuring that waiting is terrible and he might play around Daze/FoW regardless, I play Noble and try to look confident. He tanks, then starts with Mox (imprinting MOAT) and... Suppression Field! I play Blighted Agent and then catch his slow-rolled chalice with Spell Pierce (AHAHAHA!). I’ve got invigorate in hand and the option to either waste his sol land (paying an extra 2) or cast ponder. I ponder, find berserk, and end the game.
G3: He lands Chalice t1 and I play land. T2 he passes w/ 3 mana up and I play my second land and fetch. He drops Aven Mindcensor in response and I daze it, float a mana, and play Sylvan Library. He plays a Muse, I play Blighted Agent and sneak a Hierarch through his Chalice. I library into 2x Invigorate, then pay (2) to attack and kill him.
Rd 2 -- Eldrazi (2-0)
G1: He’s on the play, but has nothing t1. He dismembers my t1 hierarch (?!), then has no removal for my t2 Blighted Agent. I spend a turn casting spells into Chalice for mana, then kill with Become Immense + Berserk.
G2: I force his t1 chalice, then play hierarch, which he dismembers (again, ?!). I drop library against his 2/2 endless one, then blighted agent against his Mimic. Again he has no removal for agent, so I pay 8 life to draw 2 pump spells and kill him.
Rd 3 -- Eldrazi (2-0)
G1: He doesn’t have much except removal for my blighted agent. I probe and see 1x Thought-Knot, 2x Reality Smashers, and lands. I counter the Seer to protect my pump spells and land a glistener elf. He drops the first Smasher and attacks. I take 5 and kill him with pump spells on the swing back (don’t think I win this game if he keeps smasher back).
G2: I get out 3x Hierarch, an Elf and a Nexus against his Mimic and Thought-Knot (which stripped my Invigorate). I know he has dismember from Probe and he knows I have Berserk from TKS. I attack with Elf, expecting the dismember, but he neither chumps with Mimic nor Dismembers before damage. He untaps, draws his card, then dismembers elf main-phase. “Oh wait, I’m dead now,” he says, and sure enough, inkmoth+3 exalted triggers+berserk gets there.
Rd 4 -- Dredge (0-2) -- his list (eventual winner)
G1: I’m on the play and have Noble into Agent while holding invigorate, become immense, brainstorm, and ponder. Over those same 2 turns, he dumps 40+ cards into his yard. He hits three therapies (and about a million zombies) and since I missed my second land drop, I can’t protect my hand with Brainstorm. He leaves me with Become Immense and I whiff on my draw step.
G2: I make probably my worst keep of the night, a no-hate, no-land 6 card hand with a (potential) t2 kill. I scry non-land to the bottom, probe and see unmask x 2, therapy, grave-troll, firestorm, lands. I miss the land off probe, and fail to find another in about 6 turns as he durdles around trying to get grave-troll back in his yard after hitting 0 dredgers on his first dredge. Eventually he gets there.
Rd 5 -- Miracles (1-1-1)
G1: he mulls to 5 and I have library t2, dazing his FoW. It still takes awhile to get there, as he has seemingly infinite removal and snapcasters.
G2: After trading resources he’s topping on upkeep like crazy so I sense weakness and go for Become Immense on Blighted Agent when he’s at 3 poison. He has snapcaster+swords and I can’t recover. Probably my biggest mistake of the tournament -- i had a nexus in play and should’ve just kept grinding. I concede with 22 minutes on the clock once he assembles jace + countertop.
G3: Another drawn out affair. After seeing tons of snappys and no blood moon or staticaster previously, i re-sideboard, taking out hydroblast and adding surgical extraction (THIS WAS DUMB). Very, very late, I have nexus + library against his staticaster + nothing. He’s at 9 poison with 2 cards in hand (he’s been drawing blind each turn). I see vines + surgical from library, giving me the win unless one of his cards is removal (ofc, if it’d been hydroblast, it’s a guaranteed win…). He’s got 2 STP, 1 Pyroblast, and 1 Wear//Tear in the yard, so I surgical STP, seeing a hand of Plains and…. 2nd Wear//Tear. Rough. He argues that I should concede because of his great position, but since i have the active library and any pump spell, pendlehaven, or crop rotation is instantly lethal, I’m not convinced. Also, we’re both still live for top 8 with a draw, so I say no sir.
Rd 6 -- Nic Fit (2-0)
This guy was awesome.
G1: He has deathrite and I have hierarch, but no second land. I have a hand of 2x glistener elf, blighted agent so I flood the board with elves, drawing an abrupt decay from him. He drops veteran explorer, so I choose not to attack with my remaining elf and play agent. He GSZ's for eternal witness, returning abrupt decay and threatening to stabilize. I had 1 card in the yard, become immense, invigorate, and crop rotation in hand. I draw inkmoth and play it, cast invigorate on agent, then crop rotate my trop for wasteland, waste my nexus, and delve out Become Immense for lethal. I was proud of that line.
G2: I Force his Thoughtseize, then lead with noble and library on t2. He plays deed t3 off forest, swamp, scrubland and I waste his scrubland, stranding him with Quasali Pridemage, Toxic Deluge, Painful Truths, and Deed #2 in hand. He top decks veteran explorer and I pay 8 to draw glistener elf, inkmoth, and submerge. I play elf to force his hand and submerge his veteran in response to him cracking deed. After he replays vet, I pay another 8 and kill him with inkmoth, invigorate, berserk.
Rd 7 -- Eldrazi (1-2) -- his list
G1: He mulls to 4 and opens with eye of ugin t1, then temple plus 2x matter reshaper turn 2 (solid mull to 4!). It’s not enough and I kill him with Blighted agent and green spells.
G2: He get jitte online and I reconsider my sideboard plan (i’d brought in 2x grip, seal, and wasteland, but no needles)
G3: I have Blighted agent and 2x nexus against his 2x mimic and ratchet bomb. I aggressively crop rotate for wasteland to nuke his ancient tomb. My hand is Brainstorm, FoW and when he dismembers agent, I choose to Force and leave myself empty-handed. I think this was a BAD DECISION and the better line was to let agent die and use brainstorm to try and find a pump spell for nexus. Anyway, I don't draw pump and he lands a jitte 2 turns later and runs away with it. No top 8 for me :(
Props:
-Blighted Agent and Invigorate. Those cards are busted and when you draw them both regularly, it’s just not fair. Nice chalice, bro!
-2nd Wasteland. Was awesome all day.
-Posters here, for giving me great ideas like the second wasteland, etc.
-Grixis Delver, for not being matched up against me even once.
-Submerge. For being 100% useless 6/7 rounds, but winning the one game I boarded them in for.
-My opponents for being largely fun and chill.
-My crew, for locking up the 13-14-15 slots and showing we are all okay, if not great, at magic
-That deer-in-the-headlights look on your opponent’s face when you say “I’ll pay 8 life” with Library.
Slops:
-Getting badgered for a concession when the board is even/in my favor, he took up way more clock, and we’re both live for top 8 with a draw. Seriously??
-Karakas, for not coming in even once over the 3 events since I’ve bought one. I’ll swap it for Storm Crow next tournament.
-Whoever at SCG botched both my maindeck and my sideboard list. My handwriting is bad, but not THAT bad. Glad I didn’t get deck-checked?
Anywhoo, keep infecting and mad thanks for the folks who have worked so hard on this deck and shared their knowledge.
Round 6, game one: You don't have to go so deep, wasting your nexus. If you want to build delve here, you should just crop for a fetchland.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Thanks for the report, and welcome to the forum. Quality first post.
4-0'ed my legacy grinder today, didn't drop a game today.
R1: Opposition Elves
R2: Nic Fit
R3: Grixis Delver
R4: Miracles
My list:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
1 Piracy Charm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Daze
4 Invigorate
3 Force of Will
1 Become Immense
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Stifle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sylvan Library
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Pendelhaven
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Wasteland
1 Forest
Sideboard:
3 Swords to Plowshare
1 Seal of Primordium
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Rest in Peace
1 Reality Ripple
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Submerge
1 Force of Will
[/Deck]
Deck is solid. I don't think I'd change anything right now. I really like Piracy charm, it's a pet card of mine in the deck.
Genuinely curious; can anyone explain to me the recent trend of 15 one ofs in the sideboard for UG? My initial thought is the versatility of answers against the current field, but I would enjoy hearing the thought process of someone who has this and what answers they would have for the meta.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote
