[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

[Mr. Froggy]

I think it's worth mentioning Terminus, especially if your opponent likes *instant* dropping it off a Top.
Terminus messes with LED dredge, forcing you to play slowly, and Monastery Mentor can really suck sometimes too. Same here with Manaless, but I feel that now we have Prized Amalgam, Terminus is more damaging for the LED-version of the deck.

I spoke exactly of this at one of my locals with a guy who is still playing Manaless like a real boss.

[Farone]

Hey there, i am starting to play with Manaless Dredge to play with the list from Jeremiah Wolfgang from 21st of augustus. I was wondering how you sideboard in general vs the known decks.
Thnx guys!!

[mistercakes]

don't worry about sb too much. if you read through the thread enough you'll see what to swap out, but mostly you'll want to play the maindeck really well before even worrying about the sb. (it's not a deck that mulligans well)

[Echelon]

For that list: Make sure you run 4 Thugs and 2 Shambling Shells, not 3/3.

[JackaBo]

Hello !

I'm considering putting a pile of manaless dredge together but I have the following question.

As I understand, you always want to draw first, then go to discard and either discard a dregder or phantasmagorian. You can not afford to mull since you wont be able to discard at end of your turn.

Can we beat a turn 1 Deathrite shaman (with a forest) unless we discrad phantasmagorian or hold a streetwraith? As far as I understand maindeck contagion won't do it, since you will only have 6 cards left and if opponent untaps with DRS he can just eat our discarded card every turn.

Thanks for your help, theSource!

[dte]

Hello !

I'm considering putting a pile of manaless dredge together but I have the following question.

As I understand, you always want to draw first, then go to discard and either discard a dregder or phantasmagorian. You can not afford to mull since you wont be able to discard at end of your turn.

Hello,

You definitely can mulligan. But every mulligan will slow you down by a full turn, so it is rarely worth it when you have a dredger in hand (if you play shambling shell and it is your only dredger in the opening hand, consider mulligan depending on your hand).
Serum powder is also an option.

Can we beat a turn 1 Deathrite shaman (with a forest) unless we discrad phantasmagorian or hold a streetwraith? As far as I understand maindeck contagion won't do it, since you will only have 6 cards left and if opponent untaps with DRS he can just eat our discarded card every turn.

Thanks for your help, theSource!

You identified correctly the phantasmaorian and Street Wraith play. There is also Chancellor of the Annex. You can also try just to put the dredger, as an opponent has the choice between removing it, gambling on the fact you do not hold Street Wraith, or chose to remove whatever creature would go out of your dredge to avoid Street Wraith blowout.

However, contagion is a fine line of play, especially if DRS has been played out of forest (no daze). It is not because you are down to six cards and lose two turns that you would lose the game. I had won games after having my graveyard removed and been close to hellbent. You'll lose most of them thought.

Good luck and have fun with manaless!

[Echelon]

What dte said. If you have an opening hand that's dead to whatever you expect to face, it might be wise to mulligan.

It's better to lose a turn so you can overcome that obstacle than to lose the game b/c you refused to mulligan.

[Snowfire]

Hello,

You definitely can mulligan. But every mulligan will slow you down by a full turn, so it is rarely worth it when you have a dredger in hand (if you play shambling shell and it is your only dredger in the opening hand, consider mulligan depending on your hand).
Serum powder is also an option.

Why would you mulligan a hand with only Shambling Shell? You can discard Shell, Dredge Shell the following turn and discard it again if no other dredger has been found. This sums up to Dredge 6 on T3. After a mulligan you can only be as fast as this if you find a Troll on your second hand. But even then Shell would be better because you would have already dredged 3 cards on the turn before finding useful stuff. Am I missing an important point here?

[Atherion]

Hello guys, also new to the deck, thanks to mr. Wolfgang, previously I played exclusively merfolk - with some success - but now I feel that the meta won't suit the deck well (eldrazi and DnT). Anyways I playtested with the deck online and immediately fell in love with it, one of the most creative decks that ever existed. I have read through some pages and decided to go with the spy list with 2x chancellor and progenitus MD, I lost a few games to not having progenitus so I really feel like he is worth having the 1 slot.

For SB I decided to go with:

4x FoW
3x disrupting shoal
3x contagion/shoal
2x faerie macabre
3x leyline of sanctity

I bought a playset of Unmask as well but I don't really like the card against brainstorm decks since they can hide the card or any deck actually that can just topdeck the hate.


I don't know if the 1 copy of ashen rider is really needed. What do you think? Also I need some advice on sideboarding, if anybody would be willing to discuss it through PM, I'd be thankful.

[Echelon]

@Atherion: Post an exact 60. Spies and FoW aren't necessarily the best fit. You need your blue count to be as high as possible.

[dte]

Why would you mulligan a hand with only Shambling Shell? You can discard Shell, Dredge Shell the following turn and discard it again if no other dredger has been found. This sums up to Dredge 6 on T3. After a mulligan you can only be as fast as this if you find a Troll on your second hand. But even then Shell would be better because you would have already dredged 3 cards on the turn before finding useful stuff. Am I missing an important point here?

I didn't say that I would mulligan a hand because it had only shell as a dredger. I said it should be considered. On a six-hands mulligan, you'll have a 60% chance to find either troll or imp, and so to be around on-par dredgewise to what the shell dredging would have done.
So you should consider the rest of the hand: no cards that are good to have in hand, such as CotA, FoW, probe, wraith? cards which are bad, like narcomoeba? maybe worth a mull then.
Vs an unknown opponent, I can easily mull a hand with only shell and no other action.

So to sum it up, I wanted to say that hands with Imp or troll are often snap-keep, with thug it is quite rare for me to mull, with shell I consider it.
But lately, I don't play shell anymore.

[Atherion]

@Atherion: Post an exact 60. Spies and FoW aren't necessarily the best fit. You need your blue count to be as high as possible.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow

4 Dread Return
3 Balustrade spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Progenitus

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Chancellor of the annex

13 MD blue cards with possible other 7 out of the SB

[dte]

When did painter became the DTB?

[Echelon]

When did painter became the DTB?

Oh, if it only did.

[JackaBo]

Hello,

You definitely can mulligan. But every mulligan will slow you down by a full turn, so it is rarely worth it when you have a dredger in hand (if you play shambling shell and it is your only dredger in the opening hand, consider mulligan depending on your hand).
Serum powder is also an option.



You identified correctly the phantasmaorian and Street Wraith play. There is also Chancellor of the Annex. You can also try just to put the dredger, as an opponent has the choice between removing it, gambling on the fact you do not hold Street Wraith, or chose to remove whatever creature would go out of your dredge to avoid Street Wraith blowout.

However, contagion is a fine line of play, especially if DRS has been played out of forest (no daze). It is not because you are down to six cards and lose two turns that you would lose the game. I had won games after having my graveyard removed and been close to hellbent. You'll lose most of them thought.

Good luck and have fun with manaless!

Thanks for the quick answer. I think I would want to go with 4 chancellors then since I think the described scenario would come up quite often in my metagame and I would want 12 cards that protects my opening play.

I guess maindeck FOW is an option as well, but on the other hand: since you need it in your starting hand I guess that Chancellor does the same job in this specific situation, and chancellor is way better than FOW in the bin.

[Echelon]

@JackaBo: Be careful not to dilute your 60 too much, and remember speed kills too.

I used to run Chancellor and loved it when I did, but Prized Amalgam is just so much better. It puts so much pressure on your opponent to have the answer and makes it so much easier to beat your opponent into submission when he can protect himself from the combo. By cutting a dredger here and a recurring creature there, you undermine the foundation on which the deck is built. Especially cutting dredgers can be very dangerous.

For those that want to play FoW but not the blue Shoal - run Whirlpool Drake over the Whirlpool merfolk as your DR target. Moar triggers = moar value.

[Final Fortune]

Is Whirpool Drake the best blue target? No one played it before Whirpool Rider, so isn't River Kelpie the better choice?

Chancellor is a great card and should be in the 75 some where just for Deathrite Shaman and combo. I think it's easily better than creature removal as the better D&T players dont run multiple Containment Priest over other lock pieces.

[Echelon]

They didn't play it b/c of the blue Shoal. River Kelpie can also be a thing, but stirs up a shitstorm of triggers. Drake is easier to work through.

[JackaBo]

@JackaBo: Be careful not to dilute your 60 too much, and remember speed kills too.

I used to run Chancellor and loved it when I did, but Prized Amalgam is just so much better. It puts so much pressure on your opponent to have the answer and makes it so much easier to beat your opponent into submission when he can protect himself from the combo. By cutting a dredger here and a recurring creature there, you undermine the foundation on which the deck is built. Especially cutting dredgers can be very dangerous.

For those that want to play FoW but not the blue Shoal - run Whirlpool Drake over the Whirlpool merfolk as your DR target. Moar triggers = moar value.

Thanks for the input
I was actually planing to dilute my deck of DR-targets as chancellor is decent target herself, I suppose.
I'm not much for netdecking so here's what I've been toying with:

http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/233786

I'm happy for comments on the list



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[Final Fortune]

They didn't play it b/c of the blue Shoal. River Kelpie can also be a thing, but stirs up a shitstorm of triggers. Drake is easier to work through.

I don't remember it being played before Shoal at all tho', and I've been playing this deck since its inception. I just assumed the other blue alternatives were better for some reason. Regardless I'm sure any Whirpool is more than enough to win, I just can't remember whether or not there was a good reason for us not playing it over the alternatives back in the day or if it was just an overlooked card. I'm guessing it had something to do with Phantasmagrian discarding cards before hand or Whirlpool Drake not discarding cards after the fact? Anybody else go that far back?