[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Echelon]

tracker on crack

Cracker!

I'm not sure yet. I need to think this one over.

[AtticusBlaqk]

I run 8 fetches, a wasteland, and a horizon canopy. I don't really have that problem by the time she comes down.. Ever actually.
Love meren, he's value city against all fair decks. Get a tower and start sacing rhinos or whatever, combat trades and what not. Worst case you'll have an Explorer or something to bring back, I've normally got a scooze/pridemage/ewit/tracker/nissa in there by the time he comes down. Even against control if he's not immediately dealt with (which he shouldn't be because he comes down after they've dealt with a ton of your stuff) he's more value than trump without needing to untap (though not quite etb value).

Thrun I've cut completely very early on. He can't get through goyfs, is chumped for days, doesn't survive the common wraths like terminus or deluge. Sure, some matchups can struggle against him, but there are better things for those matchups. Like combat walkers. Just save a therapy/duress/tz

You make an interesting point about the number of lands that you naturally have/put in the GY. The other question is how many DRS do you run?

I cut Meren from my list early into playing the deck and immediately took it back. She (I'm pretty that I have the gender correct) is ridiculous. I think that I've said it here before but I love using my Jitte to build experience if there are value creatures in my GY and I don't have a sac outlet.

In the intro to this thread it is discussed that it is bad form to run Dryad Arbor. The experience that I've had makes me feel like it is a must include. Meren returns it for 0, you can fetch it to tutor with Garruk Veil Cursed or Diabolic Intent, it has synergy with Titania, instant speed to play with equipment or Elspeth to jump the Arbor for 4dmg (#flyingforest). There are just a ton or angles that this opens up. I cut the Nissa, Vastwood Seer from my list and trimmed the basic forests from 3 to 2.

8 Fetchs
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor (0 cmc creature)

Do you think that I can get away with 21 lands and the honorary land? Or is this pushing it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Echelon]

@Atticus: Cut a Bayou and a Savannah and substitute for 2 more fetch and you have my exact manabase (as far as fetch + basics + duals is concerned). Gives you a nice 14 initial mana sources of each colour across the board. Add 2 Towers or 1 Tower + 1 Karakas and you have a 21 land manabase.

Don't misidentify Arbor as a land - for design purposes it should be considered a creature.

Meren is difficult to judge. When she's good, she's really good. When she isn't, she's a very bad Siege Rhino.

[Navsi]

In the intro to this thread it is discussed that it is bad form to run Dryad Arbor. The experience that I've had makes me feel like it is a must include. Meren returns it for 0, you can fetch it to tutor with Garruk Veil Cursed or Diabolic Intent, it has synergy with Titania, instant speed to play with equipment or Elspeth to jump the Arbor for 4dmg (#flyingforest). There are just a ton or angles that this opens up. I cut the Nissa, Vastwood Seer from my list and trimmed the basic forests from 3 to 2.

Arbor is fine, although it takes up a creature slot rather than a land slot.

The Primer appears to have been written before Meren (and Titania) came out. Maybe it could do with an update?

The main versions are probably the same (Scapeshift, Punishing Jund, Abzan midrange, Abzan combo, Sultai pod, Sultai control).

I'd say that the secondary / tertiary lists could potentially do with some of the newer stuff going around, like the Starfield builds, 4C lists, Gitrog combo, Arianrhod's Sneak Attack thing.

[Corgimancer]

As a potential sideboard card for the Eldrazi Matchup I've been toying around with Big Game Hunter. It only hits TKS, RS, and big X guys buuuut it comes down a turn earlier than damnation (which can matter in that matchup) and also provides a blocker for another threat, and has that outside chance of being able to get value off madness if they have both TKS and Smasher out (target smasher with swords - discard BGH, cast off madness for B) I know its not super great but I certainly think there must be a way to turn that matchup to our favor, right? Also I'm fairly convinced 2x jitte MD is prob correct considering the amount of dorks we play, if not the entire SFM + jitte package.

to be fair I think bone shredder would do the same thing more reliably, but I don't own any lol.

[Echelon]

As a potential sideboard card for the Eldrazi Matchup I've been toying around with Big Game Hunter. It only hits TKS, RS, and big X guys buuuut it comes down a turn earlier than damnation (which can matter in that matchup) and also provides a blocker for another threat, and has that outside chance of being able to get value off madness if they have both TKS and Smasher out (target smasher with swords - discard BGH, cast off madness for B) I know its not super great but I certainly think there must be a way to turn that matchup to our favor, right? Also I'm fairly convinced 2x jitte MD is prob correct considering the amount of dorks we play, if not the entire SFM + jitte package.

Yeah, Damnation isn't really a card one runs in ones SB.

Post your 75, give us some context for your BGH (i.e. what do you give up in order to facilitate it).

[Arianrhod]

Arbor is fine, although it takes up a creature slot rather than a land slot.

The Primer appears to have been written before Meren (and Titania) came out. Maybe it could do with an update?

The main versions are probably the same (Scapeshift, Punishing Jund, Abzan midrange, Abzan combo, Sultai pod, Sultai control).

I'd say that the secondary / tertiary lists could potentially do with some of the newer stuff going around, like the Starfield builds, 4C lists, Gitrog combo, Arianrhod's Sneak Attack thing.

Yeah, I need to push out an update for it at some point in the next couple of months. I'll probably try to have it up by mid-November, so we can incorporate anything from Eternal Weekend & SCG Baltimore, along with a bit of polished Kaladesh inclusions (such as if Chandra and Nissa are good enough to run).

Arbor has accumulated more reasons to run it. I still don't personally, but I no longer am of the opinion that the card is wildly unplayable in the deck. We've picked up enough synergies with it now that it's not just "but you can GSZ on turn one!!!"

[Hmmm_Really?]

As a potential sideboard card for the Eldrazi Matchup I've been toying around with Big Game Hunter.

Shriekmaw does the same job for only 1B if you're only concerned with Eldrazi. Hornet Nest is GSZ'able, but admittedly it's then vulnerable to Dismember, Wail or Ratchet Bomb.

[Brael]

This is pretty good, is it better than any other 5 cmc PW? I think it closes the game fastest with some upside.

It's very interesting. I'm more excited over the Chandra which I think is on par with JTMS power wise (though it's not blue) but it would take some doing to fit Chandra into Jund Fit.

So looking at this Nissa, keeping in mind that I'm coming at it from the approach of the SE Fit build. Lets start with the drawbacks:
1. Can't be tutored. This matters but it doesn't matter that much. I'm already running Ranger of Eos as a high mana non tutorable target that provides CA. Nissa is slower to provide CA but can grind much better.
2. Slow. Now, most people haven't looked at things from this angle because it's weird to call a PW that ultimates the turn after it comes in as slow but lets examine it in detail. Remember, Ranger of Eos is my reference point. Ranger is a mana less for 2 cards upfront, so turn 0. If you +1 Nissa and then ultimate and then play a land you essentially spent 5 mana to cycle your Nissa. Sure, you'll get more CA later but 2 turns in and you're down your Nissa and only drew 1 card. The ultimate route requires a minimum of 4 turns to break even with a Ranger of Eos, a turn to get to ultimate, and then 3 turns to get 3 cards, and then you're still down a mana.
3. Turns your opponents removal into Stone Rains.

Now lets look at the advantages.
1. High loyalty. This matters more than people think, loyalty means your opponents attacks are divided as they try to deal with you. Backed by some blockers (one of which she ticks up to provide) she can be very difficult to remove.
2. Makes competitively sized creatures. In the land of the Eldrazi menace or even against Miracles the ability to make 5/5's can't be ignored. 5/5 trades with practically the entire format except for Marit Lage and Griselbrand.
3. The second ability. Seriously, this is where the power is on this card, the regrow is what will win you games. Cast Nissa, +1 to make a blocker, and then -3 twice for threats that already traded for removal. It's +2 cards in 2 turns less than the ultimate route, it affects your opponents board, and it gives you some measure of quality. My only real counter argument to this is that Terminus/StP stop the ability. A Nissa build is probably the card that encourages us to run more Pernicious Deeds again, and maybe Recurring Nightmares or Rectors.

Overall my verdict is, Ranger of Eos is still better. I'm open to being proven wrong, but I'm just not seeing the value here outside of perhaps Miracles but we have a lot of good cards against Miracles these days, including Ranger of Eos which she competes with.

Have someone tried Grim Flayer in Nic-Fit? I think someone on the thread has tested him.

I want to try him out on the Jund build. I want to something that can dig and there is no issue to add P. Fire in the graveyard.

We have almost all card types in the deck so get delirum is not hard to get.

I'm not sold on Grim Flayer either. My main argument is in how his ability stacks with Top. Dark Confidant gives the same CA but can do so when it can't swing, is the same power in most circumstances, and pairs much better with Top. The only situation where Flayer beats Bob in my opinion is that you can GSZ for Flayer, but I don't see where you would ever want to. Tracker at 3 is a stronger CA engine and Ooze at 2 better plays the beatdown role.

Perhaps you would want it if the opponent lacks pressure, and you can get it out on T2? But then I would have to ask what your opponent is doing if they don't have creatures so you can swing, and they don't have removal so it lives. That leads to the dark arts of combo where you would rather have something like Ooze to maybe interact.

[4554551//]

You make an interesting point about the number of lands that you naturally have/put in the GY. The other question is how many DRS do you run?

I cut Meren from my list early into playing the deck and immediately took it back. She (I'm pretty that I have the gender correct) is ridiculous. I think that I've said it here before but I love using my Jitte to build experience if there are value creatures in my GY and I don't have a sac outlet.

In the intro to this thread it is discussed that it is bad form to run Dryad Arbor. The experience that I've had makes me feel like it is a must include. Meren returns it for 0, you can fetch it to tutor with Garruk Veil Cursed or Diabolic Intent, it has synergy with Titania, instant speed to play with equipment or Elspeth to jump the Arbor for 4dmg (#flyingforest). There are just a ton or angles that this opens up. I cut the Nissa, Vastwood Seer from my list and trimmed the basic forests from 3 to 2.

8 Fetchs
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor (0 cmc creature)

Do you think that I can get away with 21 lands and the honorary land? Or is this pushing it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:18
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan

Spells:19
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Path to Exile
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands:23
2 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:15
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Duress
2 Gut Shot
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Plague
2 Slaughter Games
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

There was a conversation about drs a while back, and after a lot of testing I found it to be a terrible singleton. If you're running 3-4 he's great,but as a 1 of I never zenithed for him. Always better plays. He's versatile, but we don't want versatile. We want specific answers.

Arbor I found to be a must. For meren, titania, jitte, blocking and sacing reasons. Even to therapy.

[Navsi]

Deathrite is fine as a 1-2 of in my experience. You're right in that you don't want to Zenith for it often, but at the same time you often want more than 8 ramp effects (Explorers and Zeniths) in the deck, so you need something that fills those slots and Deathrites are the best option. Only playing 4 Vets and 4 Zeniths is pretty risky when we have 5- and 6-drops in the deck, a reasonable percentage of the time we won't be able to cast them early enough to be relevant.

Deathrites are also way more useful than Veteran Explorer after the early game. They're also pretty good as a lightning rod for removal.

[Echelon]

Deathrite is fine as a 1-2 of in my experience. You're right in that you don't want to Zenith for it often, but at the same time you often want more than 8 ramp effects (Explorers and Zeniths) in the deck, so you need something that fills those slots and Deathrites are the best option. Only playing 4 Vets and 4 Zeniths is pretty risky when we have 5- and 6-drops in the deck, a reasonable percentage of the time we won't be able to cast them early enough to be relevant.

Deathrites are also way more useful than Veteran Explorer after the early game. They're also pretty good as a lightning rod for removal.

You know you're talking to the person asking advice and then going "Meh, fuck that shit", right? Why bother..?

[4554551//]

You know you're talking to the person asking advice and then going "Meh, fuck that shit", right? Why bother..?

That's simply not true. I mull things over, accept some things, reject others, think about it. Some are implemented right away, some later or pave for other ideas, some never.
You're just butthurt I disagree with a lot of what you preach.

[Echelon]

You're just butthurt I disagree with a lot of what you preach.

Yes, that's absolutely it. I lie awake at night, wallowing in my tears.

I'm glad to know that "Meh, fuck it" (or "Meh, don't need it" and so on and so on) equals presenting logical arguments that move a discussion forward.

[Jain_Mor]

It's interesting seeing debates we've had a while ago resurface again with newer posters. Not their fault, search function in this place is awful. Legacy is in this really weird place at the moment because the Conspiracy cards won't be available online until November, so we're relying on the much slower IRl metagame to tell us about the new cards... It's going to be a slow few months.

In the meantime, some Nic Fit alter porn for your pleasure (but mostly mine)

EDIT, link didn't show all the cards, here is true link -.-

http://imgur.com/a/wwGVl

My list to go with it is always in slight flux, but here's a version for people interested in SFM fit:

61
21
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

4 Gsun
1 Dryad Abor
4 Veteran Explorers
1 DRS
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tracker / EWit / Troll Ascetic
1 Thrun
1 Meren
1 Sigarda
1 Tusk
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

2 Top
4 Cabal therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 StP
3 Decay
3 Deed

Sometimes cut 1 SFM and a gsun target (tracker/Thrun) for two combat walkers.

3 Surgical Ext
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Needle
2 Spirit of the Labia
1 Teeg
1 Rec Sage
2 Engineered Plague
2 Tsunami/Card advantage for fair blue decks

For those not in the know, I'm not really jamming much games at the moment, but this list has gone through extensive testing up until mid August, have quite a bit of data from playing online religously.

[4554551//]

It's interesting seeing debates we've had a while ago resurface again with newer posters. Not their fault, search function in this place is awful. Legacy is in this really weird place at the moment because the Conspiracy cards won't be available online until November, so we're relying on the much slower IRl metagame to tell us about the new cards... It's going to be a slow few months.

In the meantime, some Nic Fit alter porn for your pleasure (but mostly mine)

EDIT, link didn't show all the cards, here is true link -.-

http://imgur.com/a/wwGVl

My list to go with it is always in slight flux, but here's a version for people interested in SFM fit:

61
21
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

4 Gsun
1 Dryad Abor
4 Veteran Explorers
1 DRS
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tracker / EWit / Troll Ascetic
1 Thrun
1 Meren
1 Sigarda
1 Tusk
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

2 Top
4 Cabal therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 StP
3 Decay
3 Deed

Sometimes cut 1 SFM and a gsun target (tracker/Thrun) for two combat walkers.

3 Surgical Ext
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Needle
2 Spirit of the Labia
1 Teeg
1 Rec Sage
2 Engineered Plague
2 Tsunami/Card advantage for fair blue decks

For those not in the know, I'm not really jamming much games at the moment, but this list has gone through extensive testing up until mid August, have quite a bit of data from playing online religously.

That's beautiful. Who does those alters and do they do commission?

[Echelon]

Hmm, seems like we're getting a nice BW hatebear.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/ka...-of-allocation

3 mana is expensive, but landing it means they have limited time to find an answer (and every spell they cast makes it harder for them to kill you).

Also, a cheaper Slaughter Games:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/ka...98-lost-legacy

I mean, who cares about letting Stom draw cards when they have no kill con left in their deck. Probably worse vs. Miracles, though.

[rubblekill]

Hmm, seems like we're getting a nice BW hatebear.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/ka...-of-allocation

3 mana is expensive, but landing it means they have limited time to find an answer (and every spell they cast makes it harder for them to kill you).

Also, a cheaper Slaughter Games:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/ka...98-lost-legacy

I mean, who cares about letting Stom draw cards when they have no kill con left in their deck. Probably worse vs. Miracles, though.

I'll try the new extraction. At three mana and without red it starts to be interesting against combo decks, punishing fire decks and of course the usual suspect miracles. Yes, it is counterable, but not with ease by counter balance; if they waste a hard counter for it I'm gonna still be very happy about it.
The 3 mana hatebear is interesting but in that spot I find canonist straight better: costs 1 black mana less and completely prevents them from cantripping multiple times each turn into decay/CoV. I find that the combo matchups I lose the most are the ones in which I cannot manage to mulligan into a decent discard spell/s hand: instead, if I can discard their business and thus take time, GSZ and top have plenty of time to find the hate bears, which often leads to the win. All this to say that against a combo heavy meta I'd side more early interactions and more canonists (at least 2) before playing the new dude. I still like it, but this is my thought process; that doesn't mean that someone won't prove me wrong when we will all have access to the new toys.
New Nissa seems at least worthy of being tested, does a lot of the things we want a walker to be doing in a control heavy metagame (online)..

[4554551//]

I really like lost legacy. Just shelled out on foil slaughter games too.

What's everyones opinion here on non g/x hatebears?

[Dice_Box]

PSA: Report the troll, do not feed it.