Miracle Control

[klaus]

Temporal Mastery

TM has been analyzed, thoroughly tested and collectively discarded for good in the weeks/months after it's been spoiled - not regarding Miracles only, but the entire format.
Reasons being:
* too clunky
* time walks are less impactful than you might think
* ..even with an active Mentor: chances are you make 1-2 more tokens and pass the turn - fringe casing being you have 2 SDT online, but then you're likely winning anyway
* hard-casting it is even more of a bitch than Terminus, and again, the effect is underwhelming (even more so, if you're tapped out)
-
That being said, I do admit it looks appealing on paper, but go for it and run it through some live tests. It'd be funny if you came to the conclusion that it's playable.

EDIT: Can't find the related discussion, but maybe somebody else can point you to it.

[Cipher]

Wow, Temporal Mastery in a 4x Mentor-Top build actually sounds broken. It's a different deck, but it would be a shame if nobody ever tried it.

You just need some way to use the extra mana the time walk gives you; not sure if the crazy Ponder + Preordain builds have enough deck velocity to chain cantrips.

[HansV]

One top and one ponder gives 3 spellcounts if you bounce the top before your turn, play it, bounce it again, draw it with ponder/brainstorm and play it one more time.
Two tops gives one spell for each mana you have if they bounce each other.
Question is if it really matters or if you have a win condition anyway...
I will probebly try and play two TMs and see how it works. It's fun to fiddle around with tuning the deck myself and not just play the standard decklist. And Miracle is great because it allows for anything from a aggro deck to a very slow control deck.

[klaus]

I will probebly try and play two TMs and see how it works.

Go for it and let us know how it went :-)
For insightful testing I recommend ask yourself whenever you draw it: "Would I prefer this TM to be a Predict: Yes/No." I'd be intrigued if you came to a 50/50 or better.

[HansV]

I will do that:)
Actually two Predict was another option I was looking at.

[Misersoneof]

Wow, Temporal Mastery in a 4x Mentor-Top build actually sounds broken. It's a different deck, but it would be a shame if nobody ever tried it.

You just need some way to use the extra mana the time walk gives you; not sure if the crazy Ponder + Preordain builds have enough deck velocity to chain cantrips.

I think Temporal Mastery sounds better than it actually is and here is why: you can't cast it after casting a mentor.

The dream of this kind of deck would to wait until your opponent taps out and then drop a mentor, take 2 turns and then have a fleet of tokens and pass the turn, leaving them with the only option of killing an army to survive or killing them before they take their next turn. The problem is that you cannot cast TM during your mainphase. (unless of course you hard cast it) Miracles, by virtue of the fact that they only work when you draw that first card for a turn, are best used during your opponent's turn. At best, you will TM at your opponents end step, take your extra turn, play a mentor, then atempt to make some monks. If they have the removal and or FOW then it doesn't really make a difference. The only benefit I can see would be to untap and attempt to make another mentor if you have it (corner case). Otherwise that extra turn was a waste.

Now you may have some corner cases where you untap with a mentor and chain TM but those games should've been games you were going to win anyway. The bottom line of this, IMHO, is that it's kinda pretty much the same if you only take 1 turn versus the two. You still lose out if they have the answer for your mentor and Temporal Mastery is a 'win more' kind of card.

[Minniehajj]

I will do that:)
Actually two Predict was another option I was looking at.

Hi, I'd like to refer you to my Predict Primer here, it might present some light on the card's inclusion
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post956685

I agree completely with what Misersoneof said about Temporal Mastery. It sounds bonkers, but it's overall clunky and not a great effect. It's the very definition of "win more." If you're untapping with mentor, you should have a roadmap for stabilization and to push further ahead already, you don't need cards that are only there to augment the mentor plan. If your plan is to mentor someone, mentor should be able to do it while gaining you incremental advantages and stabilizing, not as the ONLY plan you have going on. I.e. continue to cantrip, continue to achieve the countertop lock, continue to play out your game normally, while incrementally growing your army. This approach, in my humble opinion, is the best way to maximize the mentor plan overall, not as a focal point, but as a tool towards stabilizing the game.

For more information on how Monastery Mentor specifically achieves this type of board stabilization, I'd like to refer you to Wilson Hunter (patrunkenphat himself!) and Phillip Braverman's podcast, The Brainstorm Show. Wilson top 8'd GP Columbus with a list based around 4 Monastery Mentor that champions on Mentors ability to both win the game but also stabilize the board. Here's a link to the specific episode: http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/pod...raculous-lens/

Hope these can provide with a good insight on how best to use Mentor in a competitive setting.

All this being said, feel free to test out the combination of Mentor plus Temporal Mastery if you feel as if it's fun and entertaining, but just know that if you present your findings here, it would take a lot of testing and data to convince someone that this combination is any better than regular miracles. Believe me, I would know :(

[Misersoneof]

So there are a couple of things I would like to draw everyone’s attention to that, for one reason or another, have not been discussed yet. I don’t know if everyone has already discussed these topics in other places or if they’re of such low priority that no one has bothered to think about them but I hope that by talking about them now, we can get some discussion going.
I for one am preparing for GP Chiba in November and I have this feeling that the legacy metagame is in for a big change or, at the very least, a lot more variety. I have been looking at all of my decks during my testing and I can’t help but feel that miracles is by far the best positioned for the impending GP. Still, I can’t help but think that the list I am playing is inadequate and that I need to do more testing.

That being said, right now the biggest things on my mind are the current state of the legacy metagame, the new cards that have been or are about to be released and the possible shift in metagame that might take place.

I believe it was the Spike Feed podcast that said it on their show last week that legacy seems to be stagnant. The reason they brought up was the overall lack of big legacy tournaments with large purses and how people are not incentivized to try new things. This may or may not be correct since they seem to mostly play online and not at shops. While I do think they are correct on their assessment of the stagnation of the current legacy scene being flooded with storm, miracles, lands and grixis delver, I don’t think it’s going to stay that way for much longer.

I have been noticing a steady increase in articles that illustrate strange brews that seem to be bending convention. Along with these articles I have also seen a plethora of new cards that are entering the legacy pool that don’t fit into current archetypes and will more than likely bend deck builders in new directions.

Cards that we have discussed like recruiter of the guard and sanctum prelate I think are just the tip of the iceberg. These two cards fit into Death and Taxes and have been showing up in low but steadily increasing numbers. They are also starting to see play in White Eldrazi lists, which have been reassigned from Vintage and, according to those who have been testing with the deck, seem to holding their own. This article from Thraban University shows one builder’s thought process as he tinkers with the deck.

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=494

New Thalia seems to be front and center in these decks and could make her a more common sight across from us at the table. These lists, if they became popular would seem to be a bit of a challenge for miracles to overcome. While we started to run Engineered Explosives to help fight against the eldrazi menace, would it still work for these decks if our fetches came into play tapped?

Some cards that weren’t discussed however (or I might have missed it), such as Leovold, Emissary of Trest, seem like they would be very difficult to fight against. He would make the long game against shardless that much harder if they were to gain card advantage for every creature we send farming. Other decks that might try to run him however might strain our terminuses. Recently this article from MTG Goldfish seems to be showing off a new resurgence of midrange stoneblade decks. The second to last of which (Bant Stoneblade by David Courson) runs two Leovold, four TNNs and one Sanctum Prelate in the sideboard.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...oneblade-decks

So far all of these cards I’ve covered are all creatures which means that they have the ability to get around our countermagic through the use of cavern of souls and aether vial.

Other cards that I have been looking at are not creatures however. So far Kaya, Ghost Assassin and Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast have not seen any play in the legacy meta. Both of these cards do unique and interesting things. Kaya creates extreme amounts of card advantage with her -2 (opponent discards and you draw) and unlike most planeswalkers, her minus ability can be used indefinitely.
Daretti’s use of artifacts seems fairly innocuous but when built around he could create a combo deck of some sort. His -1 also interacts with our game plan of counter top lock. Thinking about him brings me to think about the new 3 mana planeswalker from Kaladesh, Saheeli Rai. An artifact combo deck based around Saheeli Rai, Daretti and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas seems like something that someone might try to build even if it turned out to be less then competitive.

I only bring these cards up because planeswalkers generally have been an incredibly difficult thing for Miracles to deal with. When Jace was the most common planeswalker in legacy, we added some Pyroblasts and called it a day. But if we had to deal with a new superfriends archetype, would the few Vendilion Cliques cover us?

Two more new planeswalkers have been spoiled that could change legacy dramatically. The new four-ability Chandra, Torch of Defiance seems pretty strong. She might even find her way into the sideboards of miracles decks. I like how the first plus one ability gains card advantage and how the damage it generates could be redirected to a planeswalker that is giving us trouble. It’s probably more cute than good though and two red mana make it really difficult to cast.

Nissa, Vital Force was also spoiled and while she has no possibility of going into miracles but she seems to be very likely to see play in legacy. Her plus one protects quite easily and she ultimates after one turn. Moreover, her ultimate provides unstoppable card advantage for the rest. I see her as going into midrange decks that can afford to go long and want the late game card advantage. I wouldn’t be surprised to see this go into a Bant Stoneblade shell.

Anyway, this surge of new creatures and planeswalkers make me think that the meta is going to look very different from here on out. I think that all of these cards are worth looking at and analyzing. I hope that this post spurs conversation and that you found it enjoyable.

[TheArchitect]

Gideon was the last legacy playable PW they printed. The others you mentioned will not see play in legacy outside of people trying them out. I agree that d&t will become different/better, and the matchup is harder now. But still weak to SB hate. If the meta shifts to more mid range stoneblade decks (with or without Leo) that is good for miracles. Those decks are always bad against miracles.

Unless they ban something, miracles will remain the top dog. Just make sure you have 3-4 1-2 mana ways to kill a chalice/vial and pack 1-2 extra d&t based sweepers, like staticaster or kozileks return.

With 3 mentor, no entreat, I am currently running 1 MD EE, 1 SB EE, 2 w/t and a staticaster and it has been making both eldrazi and d&t positive Matchups.

[Minniehajj]

So there are a couple of things I would like to draw everyone’s attention to that, for one reason or another, have not been discussed yet. I don’t know if everyone has already discussed these topics in other places or if they’re of such low priority that no one has bothered to think about them but I hope that by talking about them now, we can get some discussion going.
I for one am preparing for GP Chiba in November and I have this feeling that the legacy metagame is in for a big change or, at the very least, a lot more variety. I have been looking at all of my decks during my testing and I can’t help but feel that miracles is by far the best positioned for the impending GP. Still, I can’t help but think that the list I am playing is inadequate and that I need to do more testing.

That being said, right now the biggest things on my mind are the current state of the legacy metagame, the new cards that have been or are about to be released and the possible shift in metagame that might take place.

I believe it was the Spike Feed podcast that said it on their show last week that legacy seems to be stagnant. The reason they brought up was the overall lack of big legacy tournaments with large purses and how people are not incentivized to try new things. This may or may not be correct since they seem to mostly play online and not at shops. While I do think they are correct on their assessment of the stagnation of the current legacy scene being flooded with storm, miracles, lands and grixis delver, I don’t think it’s going to stay that way for much longer.

I have been noticing a steady increase in articles that illustrate strange brews that seem to be bending convention. Along with these articles I have also seen a plethora of new cards that are entering the legacy pool that don’t fit into current archetypes and will more than likely bend deck builders in new directions.

Cards that we have discussed like recruiter of the guard and sanctum prelate I think are just the tip of the iceberg. These two cards fit into Death and Taxes and have been showing up in low but steadily increasing numbers. They are also starting to see play in White Eldrazi lists, which have been reassigned from Vintage and, according to those who have been testing with the deck, seem to holding their own. This article from Thraban University shows one builder’s thought process as he tinkers with the deck.

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=494

New Thalia seems to be front and center in these decks and could make her a more common sight across from us at the table. These lists, if they became popular would seem to be a bit of a challenge for miracles to overcome. While we started to run Engineered Explosives to help fight against the eldrazi menace, would it still work for these decks if our fetches came into play tapped?

Some cards that weren’t discussed however (or I might have missed it), such as Leovold, Emissary of Trest, seem like they would be very difficult to fight against. He would make the long game against shardless that much harder if they were to gain card advantage for every creature we send farming. Other decks that might try to run him however might strain our terminuses. Recently this article from MTG Goldfish seems to be showing off a new resurgence of midrange stoneblade decks. The second to last of which (Bant Stoneblade by David Courson) runs two Leovold, four TNNs and one Sanctum Prelate in the sideboard.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...oneblade-decks

So far all of these cards I’ve covered are all creatures which means that they have the ability to get around our countermagic through the use of cavern of souls and aether vial.

Other cards that I have been looking at are not creatures however. So far Kaya, Ghost Assassin and Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast have not seen any play in the legacy meta. Both of these cards do unique and interesting things. Kaya creates extreme amounts of card advantage with her -2 (opponent discards and you draw) and unlike most planeswalkers, her minus ability can be used indefinitely.
Daretti’s use of artifacts seems fairly innocuous but when built around he could create a combo deck of some sort. His -1 also interacts with our game plan of counter top lock. Thinking about him brings me to think about the new 3 mana planeswalker from Kaladesh, Saheeli Rai. An artifact combo deck based around Saheeli Rai, Daretti and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas seems like something that someone might try to build even if it turned out to be less then competitive.

I only bring these cards up because planeswalkers generally have been an incredibly difficult thing for Miracles to deal with. When Jace was the most common planeswalker in legacy, we added some Pyroblasts and called it a day. But if we had to deal with a new superfriends archetype, would the few Vendilion Cliques cover us?

Two more new planeswalkers have been spoiled that could change legacy dramatically. The new four-ability Chandra, Torch of Defiance seems pretty strong. She might even find her way into the sideboards of miracles decks. I like how the first plus one ability gains card advantage and how the damage it generates could be redirected to a planeswalker that is giving us trouble. It’s probably more cute than good though and two red mana make it really difficult to cast.

Nissa, Vital Force was also spoiled and while she has no possibility of going into miracles but she seems to be very likely to see play in legacy. Her plus one protects quite easily and she ultimates after one turn. Moreover, her ultimate provides unstoppable card advantage for the rest. I see her as going into midrange decks that can afford to go long and want the late game card advantage. I wouldn’t be surprised to see this go into a Bant Stoneblade shell.

Anyway, this surge of new creatures and planeswalkers make me think that the meta is going to look very different from here on out. I think that all of these cards are worth looking at and analyzing. I hope that this post spurs conversation and that you found it enjoyable.

I was going to take the time to sit down and write a post to address this, but I was busy battling this past weekend. I also think that Legacy is in for a pretty big shakeup and I believe that these new tools are extremely potent and I believe that these new iterations of DnT will propel the deck forward in Legacy. I'm unable to attend GP Chiba but I am fully intending to attend Eternal Weekend in the US and have been playing and testing furiously with my group as well.

Leovold is a tool that I'm overall less scared of to play against; it's annoying, absolutely, but it's a tool that will be utilized by decks that already have more of the same tools against us, i.e. Card Advantage. Stuff like Shardless BUG already has all of these 2-for-1 tools, and Leovold is not really going to change much in how we approach them. I believe they'll utilize the card as a tool that they didn't have before against something like DnT, like I mentioned before.

Continuing with our DnT discussion, if you truly fear the deck as I do, it's time to bring back additional sweeper effects, as we sort of touched on earlier in this thread. Stuff like Kozilek's Return, Pyroclasm, Izzet Staticaster, Sulfur Elemental does the job nicely and plays around the Prelate threat overall IMO. It's difficult to fit in cards like this, but I believe it's fine to make concessions against decks like Sneak and Storm when building sideboards going forward because DnT has gained potent tools over them as well. Create a stable manabase and be cognizant of Vial on 2, and you should be okay. The game plan vs DnT still remains the same: answer vial and BE PATIENT with your sweepers. Don't Terminus when you can, Terminus when you have to. Patience is imperative vs them, as it has always been. I'd strongly strongly recommend testing vs this deck, because I think if you don't consider it to be a major player, you will learn to regret it.

I played (and won) 2 1k's this past weekend, a 7 rounder on Saturday and a 5 rounder on Sunday. I played (and beat) DnT a total of 4 times, against players that were extremely good and did a lot of clever things. The one thing that they didn't expect from me was how patient I was with everything. Here is the list I played in both events:
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
1 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Council's Judgment

SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return
SB: 1 Containment Priest

This is like 72/75 cards from what Angelo Cadei plays on a regular basis, and it's a return to my roots as a player as I played his list for a very very long time after Ovino, when it was published. It has some of my own personal flair, of course (the 1 Predict =P) but is more or less the deck that I've played for the longest. As the format appears to be moving towards more permanents and less spells overall, I'm comfortable with shifting to cards that answer permanents vs those that fight on the stack, at least preboard, and the sideboard then brings in the stack battling. I think it's overall okay to hedge towards fair decks g1 overall rather than combo decks because we have Cb/Top to randomly bail us out of situations vs game 1 combo decks. Perhaps this is flawed logic, but I think it's more defensible to hedge in this way than towards combo, at least when building your main deck for game 1 decks.

The First 1K:
Round 1: Eldrazi 2-0 W
Round 2: UWR Miracles 2-1 W
Round 3: DnT 2-1 W
Round 4: DnT 2-0 W
Round 5: Storm 2-0 W
Round 6: 12 Post 1-2 L
Round 7: DnT 2-1 W
Top 8
QF: DnT 2-0 W
SF: Shardless BUG 2-1 W
F: OmniSneak 2-1 W

The Second 1K:
Round 1: Belcher 2-0 W
Round 2: Waterfalls 2-1 W
Round 3: Soldier Stompy 1-2 L
Round 4: Eldrazi 2-1 W
Round 5: UWR Mentor Miracles (the list I used to champion!) 2-0 W
Top 8
QF: BUG Delver 2-0 W
SF: UWR Mentor Miracles (same opponent from Round 5) 2-1 W
F: RG Lands 2-1 W

A few notes: I was extremely patient and eked out as much value as I could throughout both events, and my list was based almost entirely on "feeling" rather than any real science behind the numbers. I played against multiple new cards, including Recruiter of the Guard, Sanctum Prelate, and Leovold, and I managed to triumph overall because of my diverse "toolbox" full of one-ofs.

I didn't stop playing the 4 mentor version because it was bad or anything, I just got bored so I wanted to play a more "classic list" and missed sleeving up my Jaces =P.

Kozilek's Return was BONKERS each and everytime I cast it, easily one of the best cards on the weekend. As of this moment, I wouldn't change a card in this 75, but that's because it's a style I'm very very used to and the approach might not be for everyone.

I'm happy to field questions regarding my matches/the list but I didn't take very thorough notes so I can't really do a full report :( but I will do my best.
I want to reiterate, once again, this is a stylistic thing and how I approached adapting to what I perceived the metagame to be shifting towards and I do not know how correct I am as of now. I'll still be testing very heavily leading up to Eternal Weekend, including testing the 4 mentor build as well, and will report here when I make any conclusions (however wild they may be =P )

[CutthroatCasual]

Aside from DnT, what other decks did you bring KReturn in against?

[Minniehajj]

Aside from DnT, what other decks did you bring KReturn in against?

I brought it in vs Soldier Stompy, Shardless (swapping it out for a terminus), Storm, Belcher, and Waterfalls. I also bring it in vs Infect, Aluren, Elves, and a handful of other creature decks.

[ThanhHa]

I was going to take the time to sit down and write a post to address this, but I was busy battling this past weekend. I also think that Legacy is in for a pretty big shakeup and I believe that these new tools are extremely potent and I believe that these new iterations of DnT will propel the deck forward in Legacy. I'm unable to attend GP Chiba but I am fully intending to attend Eternal Weekend in the US and have been playing and testing furiously with my group as well.

Leovold is a tool that I'm overall less scared of to play against; it's annoying, absolutely, but it's a tool that will be utilized by decks that already have more of the same tools against us, i.e. Card Advantage. Stuff like Shardless BUG already has all of these 2-for-1 tools, and Leovold is not really going to change much in how we approach them. I believe they'll utilize the card as a tool that they didn't have before against something like DnT, like I mentioned before.

Continuing with our DnT discussion, if you truly fear the deck as I do, it's time to bring back additional sweeper effects, as we sort of touched on earlier in this thread. Stuff like Kozilek's Return, Pyroclasm, Izzet Staticaster, Sulfur Elemental does the job nicely and plays around the Prelate threat overall IMO. It's difficult to fit in cards like this, but I believe it's fine to make concessions against decks like Sneak and Storm when building sideboards going forward because DnT has gained potent tools over them as well. Create a stable manabase and be cognizant of Vial on 2, and you should be okay. The game plan vs DnT still remains the same: answer vial and BE PATIENT with your sweepers. Don't Terminus when you can, Terminus when you have to. Patience is imperative vs them, as it has always been. I'd strongly strongly recommend testing vs this deck, because I think if you don't consider it to be a major player, you will learn to regret it.

I played (and won) 2 1k's this past weekend, a 7 rounder on Saturday and a 5 rounder on Sunday. I played (and beat) DnT a total of 4 times, against players that were extremely good and did a lot of clever things. The one thing that they didn't expect from me was how patient I was with everything. Here is the list I played in both events:
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
1 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Council's Judgment

SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return
SB: 1 Containment Priest

This is like 72/75 cards from what Angelo Cadei plays on a regular basis, and it's a return to my roots as a player as I played his list for a very very long time after Ovino, when it was published. It has some of my own personal flair, of course (the 1 Predict =P) but is more or less the deck that I've played for the longest. As the format appears to be moving towards more permanents and less spells overall, I'm comfortable with shifting to cards that answer permanents vs those that fight on the stack, at least preboard, and the sideboard then brings in the stack battling. I think it's overall okay to hedge towards fair decks g1 overall rather than combo decks because we have Cb/Top to randomly bail us out of situations vs game 1 combo decks. Perhaps this is flawed logic, but I think it's more defensible to hedge in this way than towards combo, at least when building your main deck for game 1 decks.

The First 1K:
Round 1: Eldrazi 2-0 W
Round 2: UWR Miracles 2-1 W
Round 3: DnT 2-1 W
Round 4: DnT 2-0 W
Round 5: Storm 2-0 W
Round 6: 12 Post 1-2 L
Round 7: DnT 2-1 W
Top 8
QF: DnT 2-0 W
SF: Shardless BUG 2-1 W
F: OmniSneak 2-1 W

The Second 1K:
Round 1: Belcher 2-0 W
Round 2: Waterfalls 2-1 W
Round 3: Soldier Stompy 1-2 L
Round 4: Eldrazi 2-1 W
Round 5: UWR Mentor Miracles (the list I used to champion!) 2-0 W
Top 8
QF: BUG Delver 2-0 W
SF: UWR Mentor Miracles (same opponent from Round 5) 2-1 W
F: RG Lands 2-1 W

A few notes: I was extremely patient and eked out as much value as I could throughout both events, and my list was based almost entirely on "feeling" rather than any real science behind the numbers. I played against multiple new cards, including Recruiter of the Guard, Sanctum Prelate, and Leovold, and I managed to triumph overall because of my diverse "toolbox" full of one-ofs.

I didn't stop playing the 4 mentor version because it was bad or anything, I just got bored so I wanted to play a more "classic list" and missed sleeving up my Jaces =P.

Kozilek's Return was BONKERS each and everytime I cast it, easily one of the best cards on the weekend. As of this moment, I wouldn't change a card in this 75, but that's because it's a style I'm very very used to and the approach might not be for everyone.

I'm happy to field questions regarding my matches/the list but I didn't take very thorough notes so I can't really do a full report :( but I will do my best.
I want to reiterate, once again, this is a stylistic thing and how I approached adapting to what I perceived the metagame to be shifting towards and I do not know how correct I am as of now. I'll still be testing very heavily leading up to Eternal Weekend, including testing the 4 mentor build as well, and will report here when I make any conclusions (however wild they may be =P )

So how much do you think this deck cares about main deck boseju in lands. I saw that you did beat lands though so maybe the classic miracles shell is good against lands like always unlike the 4 mentor list.

[twndomn]

Unless they ban something, miracles will remain the top dog. Just make sure you have 3-4 1-2 mana ways to kill a chalice/vial and pack 1-2 extra d&t based sweepers, like staticaster or kozileks return.

With 3 mentor, no entreat, I am currently running 1 MD EE, 1 SB EE, 2 w/t and a staticaster and it has been making both eldrazi and d&t positive Matchups.

If one's running MD EE, and more in the SB, again, re-considering Thirst for Knowledge. The Revoker-on-SDT-and-then-I-TfK-discarding-SDT play is just amazing.

The number of times Miracles trigger on stack, Vial in Prelate for 6 is just obscene recently.

[koten]

Gideon was the last legacy playable PW they printed. The others you mentioned will not see play in legacy outside of people trying them out. I agree that d&t will become different/better, and the matchup is harder now. But still weak to SB hate. If the meta shifts to more mid range stoneblade decks (with or without Leo) that is good for miracles. Those decks are always bad against miracles.

Unless they ban something, miracles will remain the top dog. Just make sure you have 3-4 1-2 mana ways to kill a chalice/vial and pack 1-2 extra d&t based sweepers, like staticaster or kozileks return.

With 3 mentor, no entreat, I am currently running 1 MD EE, 1 SB EE, 2 w/t and a staticaster and it has been making both eldrazi and d&t positive Matchups.

What does Gideon from the board get brought in against?

[CutthroatCasual]

Shardless (and Jund if someone is brave enough to play it at your LGS).

Though I don't know why you'd play Gideon over Elspeth Errant.

[TheArchitect]

Shardless (and Jund if someone is brave enough to play it at your LGS).

Though I don't know why you'd play Gideon over Elspeth Errant.

Gideon you will see as a 1-2 of in maverick, death and taxes and stoneblade sideboards frequently. It's brought in against us, but it also comes in against other midrange decks. You could play him in the miracles sideboard, but I would not recommend it.

If you are unsure why you'd play Gideon over elspeth, try him out in those decks. He is better in almost all situations.

[CutthroatCasual]

I think he was asking in terms of having Gideon in our SBs (and that's the question I answered.)

I've seen Errant in Miracles SBs. Is Gideon in Miracles really that much better? Seems like a mistake to devote SB slots to either card but why would someone pick one over the other?

[koten]

I think he was asking in terms of having Gideon in our SBs (and that's the question I answered.)

I've seen Errant in Miracles SBs. Is Gideon in Miracles really that much better? Seems like a mistake to devote SB slots to either card but why would someone pick one over the other?

That is indeed what I meant. I had noticed a couple of Gideon in the 2nd place list at Richmond SCG Classic: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21286&iddeck=163054

[talpa]

I think Gideon is better than Elspeth in Miracle Sideboard at the moment because if the opponent has some form of hate against Mentors (Dread of Night, Sulfur Elemental, Izzet Staticaster) that could kill Elspeth-made tokens but not Gideon-made