Your comment made me lol in light of the day I just had.Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Round 1 - D&T (1-2)
G1, I get him to misjudges his role and make him think he's the beatdown when he isn't. That gives me exactly the window I need to combo out. G2: T3 - RiP. G3: T2 - RiP
Round 2 - Bye (turns out the guy was a doctor and was on call)
Round 3 - Enchantress (0-2)
G1: T2 - RiP (yes, maindeck). Well, fuck. G2: T2 - Elephant Grass, T3 - Humility, durdle for 15+ turns until he RiPs and Emrakuls and whatnots.
Round 4 - Burn (2-0)
G1 & G2 - I combo out on T3.
Round 5 - D&T (1-2)
G1, I combo out, easy peasy. G2, I Unmask his RiP(!) but he beats me the fair way. I whiff on just about everything and he kills me the turn before I could combo out. G3 I have the Unmask again but he doesn't have the RiP. My dredges whiff again and again the turn I can combo out I only have a DR and no CTs. I know he has Warping Wail and unfortunately he remembered it too.
So... Yeah. There were 3 D&T players in the room (on a total of 15), 1 Enchantress and assorted other stuff. Shit happens.
All of the black targets are better than the blue targets without question, it's just that the degree to which the black targets are better than the blue targets isn't significant enough to matter over supporting Force of Will because the blue targets are still serviceable enough to combo out with - black targets also have fringe benefits in certain match ups i.e. Griselbrand is amazing vs Show&Tell.
Force of Will's failure rate is high even at 10%, it may not be as high for you because you're cutting Dredgers for blue cards but you're just trading consistency for your Force of Will for inconsistency in your mulligans. If you want to know why Mindbreak Trap is the only card I listed in my SB, it's to make a point that Force of Will is worse than Unmask vs combo because post-board being able to remove the blue combo creatures is what allows you to play more answers to combo in your 60, go back and re-read what I wrote and it will make sense.
I would rather have Chancellor of the Annex than Gitaxian Probe if it's just a question of the 4 flex slots, getting Gitaxian Probe countered is awful where delaying a Deathrite Shaman is probably the highest value you can ask for from any 1 card. Otherwise you're looking at cutting 1 Dread Return, 1 Dread Return target, 1 Shambling Shell and 1 Nether Shadow as the standard for sneaking in another 4 set or getting the blue count to 18.
I still really question the value of the MD combo kill, most games just end once you can resolve a Dread Return at all and the number of decks that can just kill you thru' a Sphere of Resistance is pretty slim. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I'm not sure the times it does is worth losing the utility elsewhere.
Contagian is bad, D&T at most has 1 Containment Priest for their tutor to find and just relies on RIP otherwise. Relic is a rare bird because people have graveyard decks other than Dredge to worry about.
I'm also beginning to wonder if it's time for Vengeful Pharaoh to shine. Sandbagging it and dumping it off Phantasmagorian seems pretty good against Thalia v1.0 and Containment Priest.
That works fine the first time around. A lot of people tend to not pay attention to whatever you dump in your GY. The plan fails when they have a Mother of Runes though.
After your opponent is aware, they usually try very hard to Surgical or otherwise get rid of your Pharaoh. It's funny as hell - as if we care if we get to keep the Pharaoh(s) or not.
I have some questions/thoughts for you veterans:
If you're more afraid of RIP et al than other combo decks, is the unmask still better in your oppinion? The way I'm thinking, if I'm on the draw (which I want to be) I'd wanna unmask right away since RIP can come down on T2. That would timewalk me twice before I get to 8-card-discard. If I got FOW (and nothing significant happens T1) I can discard at end of turn and then wait out the hate-cards. I don't know how important this really is, but it feels important, at least in theory.
So, if I wanna run FOW in my 75, I'd wanna run the blue DR-targets - which don't go well together with phantasmagorian. Does this mean I'd want to cut phantasmagorian and run FOW maindeck?
Regarding the Spy into Progentius-plan that Echelon advocates: Since you need a full hand to stay safe with progenitus, does this also mean phantasmagorian is a liability? If so, would it be worth running Progenitus in a Phantasmagorian-less Drake-deck?
Also, I wonder if Jin Gitaxias have been tested as DR target in a FOW-list instead of Drake? He gives you 7 dredges or draws at end of turn and, if not answered on the next turn, puts opponent in topdeck mode. If you draw instead of dredge (you still get to discard a bunch of cards, probably) you could draw into FOW and should be close to unbeatable.
Interesting...
The interaction between the blue targets and Phantasmagorian isn't that sigificant for Whirlpool cards, before them we used creatures that were just draw 3 and that was more or less enough. As far as Jin Gitaxis, I think it's worse than Griselbrand, but being blue I imagine it's good enough if you want a Dread Return target that takes advantage of Show&Tell ... honestly I don't think it really matters much what you Dread Return as long as it is speeding you up or slowering them down on the clock.
Cutting Phantasmagorian is never the answer to anything.
The times you want to grind your opponent out that way, you can see it coming from miles away. Usually being able to draw Progenitus just once is more than enough (and normally unnecessary). I wouldn't run this deck without Phantasmagorian in it, it can be so important to have it I don't want to be without.
Progenitus makes Balustrade Spy pretty awesome vs. S&T, by the way.
@Final Fortune: I get your points about the blue targets over the black targets and just wanted to say you're right about that.
Ok, went 2-2 in the weekly with this Manaless list:
Creatures: (41)
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Shambling Shell
2 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Phantasmagorian
1 Griselbrand
2 Chancellor of the Annex
Non-Creature Spells: (19)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
Sideboard: (15)
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Contagion
2 Unmask
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ashen Rider
Round 1: vs. BURG Delver
Game 1: I think I very easily beat his turn one Delver that he eventually had to Bolt to exile Bridges. I shredded his hand with idiots, Dread Returned a Chancellor of the Annex and sealed up the game.
+3 Contagion
-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Ichorid
Game 2: I end up just pitching a Dredger for my first turn, he ends up Surgicaling the Grave-Troll and I have no defence with Wraith that I can do about it. We go draw go (discarding random jank to my graveyard) for a while I search for a Phantasmagorian or Wraith to fight his DRS. Eventually I find the Wraith and cycle it in response to DRS targeting Stinky. However, I whiff on the Dredge and I can’t get going.
Game 3: My opponent keeps a lose hand with cage, Surgical and DRS and Wasteland as his only mana. He slams Cage T1 but I Force. We draw-go for a while, he Surgicals my first Dredger. However, I have another to discard, he finds his coloured land too late and I eventually overwhelm him.
1-0
Round 2: vs. Shardless BUG
Game 1: He seriously does nothing and I just massacre him. I think he only gets a Tarmogoyf going, I ignore it and just combo kill him with Rider > Flayer > Grave-Troll.
+3 Contagion
-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Ichorid
Game 2: He mulls deep and finds Leyline of the Void. I scoop it up.
Game 3: He mulls to four, doesn’t find Leyline and I massacre him with beatdowns and combo.
Apparently he only had a singleton Leyline and a Cage for hate.
Round 3: vs. Maverick
This was hard!
Game 1: He goes Mom (eh) into Thalia (!). I cycle Street Wraith to hope to naturally draw into Force, but whiff and Thalia is in the house. Heretic Cathar also comes down and I can’t really effectively attack either (Ichorid does nothing!) and my whole game plan is paralyzed. A combo I can’t cast stares back at me from my full graveyard. I die.
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+3 Contagion
-1 Griselbrand
-3 Nether Shadow
-2 Bridge from Below
-1 Ichorid
Game 2: He has Mom, but I easily overpower her with a very fast hand of triple Wraith. I blind Therapy away a Knight like a pro (not really, as we’ll see…) and then combo kill him.
Game 3: I make big mistakes here. I have Shoal + Narco all game (drawing second Narco for draw step, ugh), and get somethings going as he goes Mom into Deathrite. Deathrite pecks away at my graveyard but it’s already pretty stacked so I can still do a lot. Ichorid comes in and I have the sense that he has Knight of the Reliquary in hand (he has gone land Mom, turn two no play, turn three land, Deathrite – which I guessed he topdecked) but I don’t sac my Icky to Therapy Knight. Turns out he had two in hand and I get Dark Depths killed.
Round 4: vs. Dragon Stompy
This is a friend. I lent him my deck. My sideboard has 3 Leylines. Ugh.
Game 1: He has hand of Hanweir Garrison x 3 + Rabble. My first Dredge whiffs and I’m too slow to keep going.
+3 Contagion
-2 Phatasmagorian
-1 Shambling Shell
Game 2: Turn zero Leyline. GG.
Overall 2-2
Overall, I really like the deck. I’m certain I would’ve had the game verse Maverick if I did not misplay with the Therapy. I’m still struggling with sideboarding but I think I’m understanding the dimensions of the deck a little bit better. Please tell me if I’ve done anything wrong. Manaless Dredge I really want to improve with, as it feels so powerful, so convoluted (at times) and a real blast to play (especially when you need to beat hate). Yeap. Also, critiques on my main deck and sideboard would be helpful. Metagame is pretty diverse here in Melbourne Australia, but it’s getting quite fair overall.
Why do you remove so often ichorid? It is an important card, and the best one to produce bridge tokens in blocked board positions. I would remove prized amalgam before ichorid any day.
Also I think in your last game going down to 1 phantasmagorian is a bit low, especially in a MU that can be quite fast.
Otherwise I am surprised by the 3 DR for 4 dedicated DR targets, I would do the contrary any day (in fact, it is exactly what I do, 3 dedicated (flayer + 2 WR) for 4 DR) as DR without dedicated target can be quite good (tokens, trolls, CotA,...) while a dedicated DR target without DR is useless.
Maybe to keep blue card count high?
Im not sure if rider and griselbrand should share the deck. i thinkg it's one or the other to rise consistency.
And how did you feel with just 2 chacellor? Did it worth?
Thanks for the responses!
Phantas I trim in non-DRS MUs but going so low may definitely be wrong. I tend to go less all-in on Phantas in post-board games because of hate and needing to preserve cards in hand for Force/Rider. But you're right that 1 may be too low, as you have no avenue for the explosive draws he provides.
Ichorid I tend to trim because in multiples he always ends up being kind of redundant (only one has enough food, etc.) and the mentioned blue count, though I'm well aware that I'm likely sideboarding incorrectly. What would you recommend I trim in these matchups? Again, still kind of bad at this SBing thing.
I like Grisel as just flying lifelink beater that can mill you, and also lets you draw cards for FoW if needed when in play. Also gets fed to icky nicely. I agree that so many DR targets may be unnecessary. Grisel is a luxury I'll cut for more redundancy.
Chancellor was great. I want to fit a 3rd. It and Force of Will in the main make the deck look super-sexy vs combo.
I'm switching my main deck to the BoM Top 8 list, -1 Chancellor, +1 Amalgam and a SB of:
4 Shoal
3 Contagion
3 Faerie
2 MB Trap
2 Unmask
1 Ashen Rider
Though I'm keen to trim Ashen and Traps for 3 Pharaoh (D&T's Thalias are very frustrating, and it's getting popular here).
Thanks for feedback as always. :)
Sorry for the double post, but have another 2-2 to report.
Round 1: vs White Stompy
A close friend whose list I crafted, so I knew exactly what I needed to fight. I kept a zero Dredger hand with a Probe and Wraith, but whiffed on getting anything into the bin to discard. I'm really feeling the lack of shells here... He casts a Thalia, then a Seer and I can't get going and die.
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+3 Contagion
+2 Unmask
-2 Nether Shadow
-2 Phantasmagorian
-2 Bridge from Below
-3 Chancellor of the Annex
Chancellor seemed weak vs Cavern. But so is Shoals I guess. Need to fight RiP and Priest. And Thalia, I guess.
Game 2: Dredge a Stinky to start with but whiff. Have to Force his t2 Thalia and then can't cleanup discard Stinky. Get Thought-Knotted and die.
Thalia is very rough, I find.
Round 2: vs Grixis Delver
Game 1: He has t1 DRS I have turn one discard Troll. Upkeep he goes to eat it and then I go nuts, Wraithing and then draw step Dredging into a tonne of gas. I think Narcos go to bin and in resp. to trigger I pitch a bunch of Amalgams to a Phantas milled too, to trigger these. I shred apart his hand, have a tonne of power on board and then brute force DR Flayer (he Forces), do it again and Amalgams enter for the kill.
+3 Contagion
-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Force of Will
I have a similar start - turn one DRS but I have Wraith to get the action started. He misses his second land and has double Delver. He forgets to fetch green on t1, so I can Dredge in his second main, hitting Narco and Amalgam. Dredge into an absurd amount of Narcos on t2 (I think I had a Probe too), shred his hand, DR Flayer and have lethal on board next turn. He flipped Surgical to Delvers next turn, hehe.
Yeah sometimes this deck is nuts.
Round 3: 4c Loam
Game 1: He has a Lili I laugh at and kill him quickly.
+3 Contagion
+2 Unmask
+3 Faerie Macabre
-4 Force of Will
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Prized Amalgam
-1 Chancellor of the Annex
Sideboarding is a mess and something I didn't really care about. Because Leylines.
Time to go to the casino.
Game 2: Mulls to 3, hits Leyline.
Game 3: Never hits Leylines, I win with idiots.
Round 4: vs Death & Taxes
Game 1: I should know to mull right? -.- Anyway, Probe and Wraith hand with zero Dredgers, don't hit any, get Thaliaed into Prelate and die.
Side same as Round 1.
Game 2: Hand is super strong with Unmask, Force + Shoal and some stinkies. Put Stinky in bin he Cavern on Human, and casts Thalia. I look at my counters and cry. He follows up with an uncounterable Cage and I scoop it up.
White hate creatures are proving difficult, though the DRS matches feel super easy. I think I need some Vengeful Pharaohs, would really fix these MUs nicely.
Anyway, again, questions and comments on how I board would be much appreciated.
Vs. Grixis I wouldn't have boarded at all. That MU is just ridiculously good. Chancellor keeps away DRS for a turn and after that you just go nuts on his ass. Keep threatening with the combo kill while you just aggro them to death.
Vs. the white decks - their main point is stopping your combo plan, it is something you should expect them to do (i.e: Don't rely on the combo finish vs. D&T). They still can't handle your armada of creatures. It's bad practice to side out Nether Shadows and Bridges vs those decks. Keep Shadows on defense, block their big, bad creature, get tokens and kill them on the backswing. They can't handle your snowballing - they have to find the hate, otherwise they'll probably die.
Hi, i read this forum since few months and it will be my first post. I think the deck is "finish" and perfect for Legacy. Only 3-4 card is different depending on the player. The deck can do amazing stuff. Sadly i think people will put more grave-hate in the next month cause manaless start to do some result (2nd at a Star cyty game, top8 at BOM Paris), that's not a lot but that's a start.
I play test Vengeful Pharaoh and yes it shine. Death and taxeswill be more present and other deck starting to get Recruiter of the Guard MD because it's an amazing tutor. With people playing more and more this card, Containment Priest will be more likely to be in side than Grafdigger's Cage or RIP. Vengeful Pharaoh is amazing sometimes. He can kill the Containment priest and your opponent can't counter it. So you don't have FOW, not anti-hate, if your opponent have priest, you still can win, and that's amazing.
Moreover the card is not only good against hate, it really shine agasint some aggro deck like Eldrazy and D&T and even reanimator ! Reanimator really can't win, i play a lot against reanimator and manaless dredge get crush but not with the little Phraraoh. If he reanimate Elesh Nor most of the time it's over, but now the man can't attack you, your opponent must deal all the damage and kill you in 1 turn or you will kill Elesh with the pharaoh and kill him at your turn, and he can't wait cause the prized will come. It's not always the win cause he can reanimate Elesh again but that give you the game like in 80% of match.
In addition, Pharaoh is cool against all control deck with few creature like Loam deck or grixis delver.
I will try it but in some match, even if the opponent get a cage, with 4 Pharaoh and a progenitus you can win with the draw of your opponent's empty library. But maybe not
(Sorry for english misstake, it's not my first language)
Welcome. You're english is fine (it's better than fine, it's good), way better than my french and most Americans don't even know a second language (unsure about the Common Wealth folks).
Lately, the discussion is down to FoW or CotA. And, at a macro level, spy vs. non-spy. Let us know how you perform with the deck.
Welcome to the cult!
DDD / Death & Taxes
I play manaless since few years, and during the last 7 months i try all version (except horde mode, wich is just not competitive). I do a tournament of 20-30 personne each week.
The 2 first week i go with balustrade spy and was 4-0 each time. After, people add hate on her side, real hate not faerie or surgical extraction. And i did 3-1 / 2-2/ 1-3 ^^ So balustrad spy is good if no one have hate.
About the first game victory I think you win 90% of the time with no-spy list, and 95% with spy list. If nobody got a brain and go to a GP without hate, you can have luck and win (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=106627). This list only get anti-DRS side.
I try the Kelpie list, but since prized amalgam is released this list with spy or wirlpool is better.
I play with disturbing shoal in the side since 4 month, i put the force two month ago and play FOW main deck last month. The only value to play FOW in the side is to surprised the opponent, but in a GP or a meta where people know you play them, it's better to have them MD.
About shoal, by siding this card, it will be usefull (in the best case) for only 25% of your game. I have some in side and nearly never take them.
FOW is fucking op and is a monster. People fear a lot the speed of manaless and dredge. Not because the deck is fast. But they have the illusion after the game 1, even if you kill them in 4 turn they are helpless against you. So in game 2-3 they really fear you, so them can missplay. And it's in this case that FOW is amazing. Agaisnt D&T, people will rush RIP T2 unless play Thalaia T2 and RIP T3. FOW is the antihate who can destroy all hate (except leyline).
Moreover FOW can counter only response that some deck have (UR delver for exemple, which only have cage in side to block you).
My point of vue about CoA is particular, i think this card is most of the time... useless.
Youhou this card slow the opponent, you will concede T3 and not T2 ! Against hate this card is useless, it won't make you win, against an opponent without hate... pls man you play manaless, you already have win if he have nothing !
But (there si always a but) some player (idiot) think they will get the hate with Brainstorm/ponder and in this case CotA can be good.
So i have 4 of the in side against reanimator, show and tell, strom, belcher. Well agasint all combo deck. To slow and with luck do an early DR on CoA.
MD i play contagion, cause it's destroy shaman.
My current list have the package of all manaless, i will only write the card who matter in the list :
- 4 FOW
- 4 prized Amalgam
- 2 wirlpool
- 1 Flayer
- 3 Nether shadow
- 2 Contagion
I like it this way, maybe i can add 1 Contagion and remove a Nether shadow.
I nearly always side out the Nether shadow, 1 Phantasmagorian, Contagion if useless and a bridge if the Pharaoh enter.
My side is :
- 4 CoA
- 3 Disturbing shoal
- 2 Faerie macabre
- 3 Vengeful Pharaoh
- 2 Balustrad Spy
- 1 Progenitus
I side Progenitus against Miracle and Progenitus and Balustrad spy agaisnt reanimator and show and tell. And that's not a troll.
Last week i play against reanimator, i try to exhume and in response i discard the spy with Phantasmagorian (even if i got 2 FOW in hand). So i reanimate the Spy, he reanimate Elesh nor. And I win the game with this moove.
The side is manaless is hard to do i think, and not yet perfect. You need card who will make you win and that's hard to find, cause you need card you can play for free. For now I want to remove the shoal, but i don't know wich card add instead. Maybe white Leyline like M. Keller.
I so hope to see the day a Reanimator pilot Reanimates a Balustrade Spy from my yard only to target me. I have already lived the dream vs. S&T.
As far as SB-ing is concerned - another big question is when to actually sideboard. Sometimes you're better off just trying to outrace your opponent.
Since manaless is so dead to something like Leyline or RIP, is there any thought to put something like Elvish Spirit Guide for Nature's Claim, running a Savannah for like Natures Claim and maybe Wispmare? It feels like an opponent mulliganning to 1 and that 1 being Leyline and just scooping seems.... odd.
Am I just missing some interactions the deck already has in most boards that I'm just not seeing? I understand playing around stuff like Crypt and Surgical, but stuff that is just an instant win seem off.
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