[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[AtticusBlaqk]

I just caved and preordered a copy of the green Gearhulk (together with some other stuff I wanted from this set). A 5 mana 8/8 trample guy might just be what we need to retake ground dominance. Vs. decks that run StP, Sigarda suffices, vs. decks that don't you can GSZ for the Gearhulk. As a clock it's easily a full turn quicker than Sigarda. If it sucks I can always hope it's a good Standard bomb and trade it away for some quick profit.

Sucks that I have to give up Big Sorin to accomodate it, but that're the choices you make. Perhaps in the end Gearhulk becomes a 4 mana combat walker, I don't know.

I also caved in as far as Tops go - I finally got 3 this weekend (fuck me).

I'm trying to give my list some much needed speed.

The Tops are so key to trying to compete with brainstorm decks! Do you run a Courser of Kruphix?


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[TTX]

Courser with Tracker and Top is disgusting


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[Brael]

I just caved and preordered a copy of the green Gearhulk (together with some other stuff I wanted from this set). A 5 mana 8/8 trample guy might just be what we need to retake ground dominance.

I'm not a fan of the Gearhulk, it's pretty similar to Wolfir Silverheart, but weaker I would argue and that already doesn't make the cut.

I also caved in as far as Tops go - I finally got 3 this weekend (fuck me).

I'm trying to give my list some much needed speed.

I'm convinced this is the best SDT deck in the format, we use the card better than Miracles does and that's really saying something. That leads into my thinking on including Monastery Mentor. We've got the mana for the combo, and we've got the Tops. Only makes sense that it be worth trying. Sadly, I've gotten in very few test games with it because my local legacy scene died last semester and most of them didn't return this year.

Courser with Tracker and Top is disgusting

Top/Bob
Top/Courser
Top/Tracker
Top/Mentor

All are good synergies. I play them all, Top is really the focal point of my build I've found.

[Echelon]

The Tops are so key to trying to compete with brainstorm decks! Do you run a Courser of Kruphix?

Yes, I do! Have been doing so a long time, as faux Top on legs.

Courser with Tracker and Top is disgusting

Yes, it is!

I'm not a fan of the Gearhulk, it's pretty similar to Wolfir Silverheart, but weaker I would argue and that already doesn't make the cut.

I'm convinced this is the best SDT deck in the format, we use the card better than Miracles does and that's really saying something. That leads into my thinking on including Monastery Mentor. We've got the mana for the combo, and we've got the Tops. Only makes sense that it be worth trying. Sadly, I've gotten in very few test games with it because my local legacy scene died last semester and most of them didn't return this year.

Meh, Wolfir needs another creature on the field and doesn't have trample (which is exactly what makes the Gearhulk good clock).

We've not only got the mana, we probably run the highest number of shuffle effects of any deck out there too. Looking at my own 60 I've got 10 fetch, 4 GSZ, 4 Veteran Explorer and a Diabolic Intent. That's 19 cards that let you shuffle your deck. That's just crazy (and why I wanted to get those Tops in the first place)!

You know what, here's my 60 at this moment:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage (I don't run AD but did want something that allows me to blow up non-creatures to compensate for that)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis (The only real flex slot in the deck at this moment)

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent (I just love this card too much to drop it)

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

Perhaps I should just drop Sorin for another Tracker and call it a day. I don't know.

[rubblekill]

I consider new Sorin as an awesome card. But I think it's place is in the sb because he is only good against miracles and shardless and other slow decks. It is a meh 6 mana card if it's going to sit in front of creatures, I would never play him in a world full of delvers. Big elspeth at least protect herself against an entire board

[Echelon]

Vs. Delver, it usually turns into a 2/3-for-1. It isn't bad, but we can probably do better. For that much mana you just want to dominate the game from that point on. Perhaps a throwback to Dragonlord Dromoka..? It's a very good clock that allows you to negate most other clocks.

This is why I keep going back and forth on that slot, lol.

[Brael]

Lets try going back to this topic from the other day, here's my current list, I'm thinking about 1 Liliana, the Last Hope over 1 Pernicious Deed, thoughts? My argument is that I give up some broad removal for some removal that's also board presence. Liliana has targets against almost everyone, but is also able to beat Miracles which is pretty nice from a 3 drop since that's the slot they have the most difficulty interacting with.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 20
1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Dark Confidant
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Spells 15
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed

Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard 15
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Lost Legacy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

[Echelon]

Lets try going back to this topic from the other day, here's my current list, I'm thinking about 1 Liliana, the Last Hope over 1 Pernicious Deed, thoughts? My argument is that I give up some broad removal for some removal that's also board presence. Liliana has targets against almost everyone, but is also able to beat Miracles which is pretty nice from a 3 drop since that's the slot they have the most difficulty interacting with.

List

Well... Your manabase is greedy as hell. You're not hitting the mark for the T1 Cabal Therapy.

I get the alure of Ranger of Eos, but if you mostly want to fetch Endless One with it, wouldn't it be more efficient to just run an extra Endless One?

And Safekeeper - is it there specifically to protect Confidant? Seems like a bit of a wasted slot. If it's there just b/c you can tutor for it w/ Ranger of Eos, I'm not sure if it should be there either.

I also feel like you'd really want another sweeper in there - you have enough spotremoval as it is. Cutting another Deed for Liliana seems unwise, as Deed is one of the things that allows us to either pull ahead of or get back on par with our opponent in one big boom.

Don't get me wrong, it's a cool build and looks like it'd run smooth as hell (thanks to all the CA engines), but some decisions just seem a bit iffy. Mostly your manabase, Ranger and Safekeeper. Pernicious Deed is probably very meta dependant (as you saw, my meta is infested w/ D&T, making it an ideal card).

[Brael]

Well... Your manabase is greedy as hell. You're not hitting the mark for the T1 Cabal Therapy.

Is it? There's 13 sources of Black for Therapy. 8 fetches, 2 basics, 3 duals. The non typical piece is a Cavern of Souls over a 9th fetch, which is similar in quality. But when I did that I would also run a 3 Forest/2 Plains/1 Swamp basic setup, so it would again be 13 Black.

I get the alure of Ranger of Eos, but if you mostly want to fetch Endless One with it, wouldn't it be more efficient to just run an extra Endless One?

I started off with it as Stoneforge Mystic (and more Stoneforges for that matter). Over time I kept finding myself cutting the package to be smaller and smaller. Eventually I was down to 2 Mystics 1 Equipment I think (or maybe those numbers were reversed). Then I realized Ranger is basically the same thing as a non tutorable source of advantage that drops numbers onto the field. Fetching Endless One is nice (I've also considered Hangarback in the slot), but not the only thing to do. Ranger is a 3 for 1 at a good rate, and has a lot of good fetches. If you've got Trackers/Coursers down then Vet gets more attractive to fetch, Ranger into double DRS is always a great play (and is the line that made Pod a T1 deck in Modern back in the day), Safekeeper protects your board and Endless One is just big.

Endless One fills a few roles, besides being a tutor target it's a way to sneak a big body in the list without having a liability with Bob.

Also, you would be surprised how hard it is to beat Endless One+Safekeeper. It typically ends up around a 7/7 with a way to protect it. Just as hard to remove as Sigarda, and just as big.

And Safekeeper - is it there specifically to protect Confidant? Seems like a bit of a wasted slot. If it's there just b/c you can tutor for it w/ Ranger of Eos, I'm not sure if it should be there either.

It's to protect anything. Tutoring with Ranger is secondary, it's a way to use a GSZ to turn off your opponents removal spells, for example against Miracles it takes away STP. You ever Teeg+Safekeeper against Miracles? 4 tutors for 1, 5 for the other. That combo locks them out of the game completely minus their one Council's Judgment.

You can get into some mean Dryad Arbor loops with Safekeeper and Meren or Volraths too. Even Eternal Witness is back breaking in that scenario. Speaking of Eternal Witness, there's one in the deck I was writing it from memory and got it wrong, I think it's -1 Rhino for it.

I also feel like you'd really want another sweeper in there - you have enough spotremoval as it is. Cutting another Deed for Liliana seems unwise, as Deed is one of the things that allows us to either pull ahead of or get back on par with our opponent in one big boom.

This is an argument against Liliana. Sweepers are good. But at the same time, with enough spot removal, you don't need a sweeper in the first place.

[Echelon]

Is it? There's 13 sources of Black for Therapy. 8 fetches, 2 basics, 3 duals.

Golden standard is @14 .

Ranger being a 3-for-1 is true, but apart from Endless One most of the things it gets (and Ranger itself) are fairly low impact. At 4 mana you could also just run a Siege Rhino (or something else. Archdemon of Paliano perhaps?) and turn the board around from there rather than a 3/2 and some 1 mana guys the next turn.

I guess I tend to play a bit more aggressive than you do .

[Brael]

Golden standard is @14 .

I've never had a problem at 13 untapped T1 sources, that's an 83.1% chance of getting my colors in a 61 card deck. I'm pretty comfortable with anything over 80% really. 14 is 85.1%. To me, T1 Therapy in 2% more of my games isn't worth the added utility I'm bringing in, but I don't play against combo much.

The biggest difference is in the number of basic Swamps, because I lose one with this setup. I only have 6 ways to have a basic Swamp on T1 vs the 7 you have. Forest is where you feel it more though, I give up one of those too at 10 vs 11 sources. Cavern is worth it however. Phyrexian Tower is probably the land that least pulls it's weight in my build.

Ranger being a 3-for-1 is true, but apart from Endless One most of the things it gets (and Ranger itself) are fairly low impact. At 4 mana you could also just run a Siege Rhino (or something else. Archdemon of Paliano perhaps?) and turn the board around from there rather than a 3/2 and some 1 mana guys the next turn.

I guess I tend to play a bit more aggressive than you do .

Caught me on a ninja edit of my post, I explained in a bit more detail. I disagree on it being low impact. Safekeeper/Endless One combo is at minimum as high an impact as Sigarda and situationally like against Shardless with some Strix's, double DRS can be even higher than that.

Don't knock the aggressiveness of the build either, I have a lower than normal mana curve which leads to faster starts. There's a lot of ways to spend excess mana, but the base rate is pretty cheap.

[Echelon]

The biggest difference is in the number of basic Swamps, because I lose one with this setup. I only have 6 ways to have a basic Swamp on T1 vs the 7 you have.

6 black fetch + 2 basic Swamp equals 8 . Same goes for Plains. 8 green fetch + 2 basic Forest means 10 cards that can get me a basic Forest on T1, we're on equal ground there.

Edit: Read your ninja bits. You make valid points. Safekeeper + Teeg is hard to pull off though - the fact that it's possible doesn't mean you can really rely on it. Lots of things that can go wrong.

[Brael]

Edit: Read your ninja bits. You make valid points. Safekeeper + Teeg is hard to pull off though - the fact that it's possible doesn't mean you can really rely on it. Lots of things that can go wrong.

You can't rely on it, but it's a plan in addition to everything else. Eventually something comes together against them. If you get one piece it's pretty trivial to assemble the other though you can't Cavern both of them.

Safekeeper is just a strong card, it's one of those cards where it seems like people in this thread always want to build with it, but can never find a slot. I found the slot by making the connection between Ranger and SFM. From there, the equipment slots easily converted into a couple more low drops. It's rather powerful, I've even found myself GSZ'ing for a Safekeeper every now and then. It's a good way to protect a big Tracker for example.

[AtticusBlaqk]

It isn't worth going that hard on the combo. Problem is that no matter what you attempt, you're never going to be as far as other combo decks in the room, and every deck is going to have disruption for you because Wasteland is a very commonly played disruption piece. The list will also have a ton of trouble against counterspells since you can't apply pressure much other than by trying to combo. Trying to speed up the gameplan at the exclusion of your control / midrange ability isn't really worth it.

I'd say the 'core' Scapeshift tools you definitely want access to are:

- Maindeck:
10-12 Mountains, 2 Valakuts
Scapeshifts
Veterans
Therapy
Burning Wish
Zeniths
Tops
Deeds
Zenithable immediate ramp (STE)
Eternal Witness
Abrupt Decays
Lifegain creature (Huntmaster or Thragtusk)

- Sideboard:
Scapeshift
Sweeper
Slaughter Games
Pithing Needles
Extraction effect (more Slaughter Games or Surgical or both)
Innocent Blood
Planeswalker removal (Maelstrom Pulse or Dreadbore)

IMO once you have those, you can basically do whatever you want. Probably a few more creatures to put pressure on, Thoughtseizes, and draw spells.

I really appreciate the tips. I haven't had a chance to revisit my list since last Wednesday.

When does the innocent blood come in?
Is there a reason that lists seem to add the 1st Blood Crypt before the 1st Stomping Ground (even when playing 1-2 Wood Elves)?

[TTX]

Innocent Blood never comes in. It's a Burning Wish target. I prefer 1 Stomping Ground 4 Taiga that way green is really likely. I don't think Wood Elves is worth it. Play 1 Tribe Elder and Trackers instead


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[Echelon]

@Brael: This just hit me - wouldn't the new Recruiter guy be a better fit than Ranger of Eos. Yes, it's just a 2-for-1, but besides all of the Ranger's targets, it can also get you Confidant/Tireless Tracker/QPM/ScOoze.

[MDHackbert]

@Brael: This just hit me - wouldn't the new Recruiter guy be a better fit than Ranger of Eos. Yes, it's just a 2-for-1, but besides all of the Ranger's targets, it can also get you Confidant/Tireless Tracker/QPM/ScOoze.

Recruiter of the Guard also gets Teeg and is 1 mana less...

[Echelon]

Recruiter of the Guard also gets Teeg and is 1 mana less...

Thank you for piling on.

Memo to self: Coffee first, MtG later.

[Navsi]

I really appreciate the tips. I haven't had a chance to revisit my list since last Wednesday.

When does the innocent blood come in?
Is there a reason that lists seem to add the 1st Blood Crypt before the 1st Stomping Ground (even when playing 1-2 Wood Elves)?

Innocent Blood, Scapeshift, the sweeper (usually Massacre and/or Pyroclasm), and one Slaughter Games stay in the sideboard to be Wished for.

I play Blood Crypt as Mountain #11 rather than Stomping Ground because I usually run 1 Swamp and 2-3 Forests, so my black mana count is on the low side. You could go -1 Blood Crypt -1 Forest +1 Swamp +1 Stomping Ground, but I prefer the extra basic Forest (for Nissa Vastwood Seer). If you run any double-black cards, like Lilianas, you definitely want the second Swamp.

[AtticusBlaqk]

Innocent Blood, Scapeshift, the sweeper (usually Massacre and/or Pyroclasm), and one Slaughter Games stay in the sideboard to be Wished for.

I play Blood Crypt as Mountain #11 rather than Stomping Ground because I usually run 1 Swamp and 2-3 Forests, so my black mana count is on the low side. You could go -1 Blood Crypt -1 Forest +1 Swamp +1 Stomping Ground, but I prefer the extra basic Forest (for Nissa Vastwood Seer). If you run any double-black cards, like Lilianas, you definitely want the second Swamp.

I'm sorry, I mean to ask in what MU / scenarios would you wish for innocent blood.


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