All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

But this sort of design does disgust me a little. Besides Miracles, Lands, and most combo decks, the rest of the format is fair creature decks. Why make a card that hoses non-creature strategies? These are less than half of the format. I wouldn't mind if we also got more creature hosers. The last card printed that taxes your opponent's creatures was Lodestone Golem, and that was seven years ago.

It wasn't long ago that Maverick's dominance bordered on oppressive. Combo decks seemed to be at an all time low and the biggest three decks were fair, creature based agro/control (Maverick, Blade, and Thresh). I wouldn't underestimate the ability of WotC to warp a format in favour of creature strategies.

Those are two very interresting points to bring up and we sure know that WotC is pushing white hatebears for years. Near every set has their Thalia, Canonist, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Aven Minscensor, etc. looking back the last 7 years of development and its a right trait to push interaction with combo decks outside of blue counterspells and black discard to give the format more viable, strategic diversity, but with Sanctum Prelate they went too far, not only hossing Combo decks, but non-creature-spells in general at such an absurd, unsymmetric level. Its a maindeckable Chalice of the Void with Plows being the ONLY card these decks might run and is clashing with Prelate, so the opportunity cost is pathetic compared to Chalice and it doesn't even suffer from being an artifact in terms of removal, but goes to town with a 2/2 body after your opponent is being locked out from casting anything but creatures and mimic Modern with its "my creature Trumps yours" methodology.

Its ridiculous to nerf counterspells over a decade because "they are so unfun" but print a creature which locks out average of 12 cards from your opponents deck, which isn't something I consider "promoting interaction" between decks. Oh, you can also run 4 of them as Prelate isn't legendary and set them @1 & @2 so 80%+ of the format is locked out. The most disgjsting thing for me remains the fact that the card protects itself from removal while shutting off half the opponents deck.

P.S. Yo WotC, what about you applying powercreep to creature-removal too?

[Echelon]

P.S. Yo WotC, what about you applying powercreep to creature-removal too?

Yes, b/c good creature removal @1 mana is a perfect answer for Prelate. You crazy, crazy bastard.

Besides, there's already plenty of 1 mana creature removal. So what can WotC do to make it even more powerful? Make it cost 0 mana? Make it double as Wasteland-stand in? Abrupt Decay without the CMC <= 3 clause? Or with an extra Scry 2? Which still doesn't necessarily solve Prelate, by the way.

I guess it's an even better time to play Manaless Dredge than it already was. Casting spells is for pussies.

[Lemnear]

Yes, b/c good creature removal @1 mana is a perfect answer for Prelate. You crazy, crazy bastard.

Eh? Between Dread of Night, Seal of Fire and Dismember there is a lot of space for "1-mana-removal" which can dodge Prelate. Even Barbarian Ring is an option imo

[Crimhead]

Yes, b/c good creature removal @1 mana is a perfect answer for Prelate. You crazy, crazy bastard.

Besides, there's already plenty of 1 mana creature removal. So what can WotC do to make it even more powerful? Make it cost 0 mana?

I could see Snuff Out making a comeback perhaps.

I guess it's an even better time to play Manaless Dredge than it already was. Casting spells is for pussies.

True. I think the blue build (with FOW) would be the best version to fight D&T because of main-deck RIP.

[Mr Miagi]

I'd just like to say, this forum becomes much more enjoable if this thread is inactive (like now for 2 weeks). Gj all!

[Barook]

So when do we get the next B&R announcement? Next monday? I want a format back where Miracles doesn't suck the fun out of everything, although my hope for bans is very slim.

[maharis]

So when do we get the next B&R announcement? Next monday? I want a format back where Miracles doesn't suck the fun out of everything, although my hope for bans is very slim.

A week from today (Monday, Sept. 26)

I don't think a ban is coming though. There's an argument that the Miracles problem is "solved" by the community just accepting it as a given and only playing decks that are good against it, at least in paper.

[H]

A week from today (Monday, Sept. 26)

I don't think a ban is coming though. There's an argument that the Miracles problem is "solved" by the community just accepting it as a given and only playing decks that are good against it, at least in paper.

Frankly I'd love to just see an unban, honestly.

[btm10]

A week from today (Monday, Sept. 26)

I don't think a ban is coming though. There's an argument that the Miracles problem is "solved" by the community just accepting it as a given and only playing decks that are good against it, at least in paper.

Isn't that basically what's supposed to happen?

Frankly I'd love to just see an unban, honestly.

No objections here.

[H]

No objections here.

I don't particularly like how conservative they are in regards to things changing and so cards that were too strong might not be any more (i.e. possibly Survival of the Fittest).

The oddity is that they did the opposite in Vintage, where Gush was restricted and then unrestricted, seemingly out of the Blue.

I also think that there is little harm in trying out certain cards that never got a chance, like Mind Twist. If you go back, there were plenty of people who said Black Vise was going to end decks in Legacy. It never panned out. Same for Dragon. Now, maybe Mind Twist is different. Maybe it is too strong. But I think we should be allowed to find out.

[btm10]

I don't think Mind Twist is actually the most conservative option (I'd say that's probablyEarthcraft), but I think any of those or Frantic Search are reasonable choices. Search in particular I think has the potential to actually do something for the format while not allowing scary-broken things (are we really worried about Spiral Tide or Painted Stone?) and not carrying the risk of creating non-games like Mind Twist does.

[H]

I don't think Mind Twist is actually the most conservative option (I'd say that's probablyEarthcraft), but I think any of those or Frantic Search are reasonable choices. Search in particular I think has the potential to actually do something for the format while not allowing scary-broken things (are we really worried about Spiral Tide or Painted Stone?) and not carrying the risk of creating non-games like Mind Twist does.

Good point, Mind Twist was what came to mind first, but indeed (correct me if I am wrong, I am on my phone) Eathcraft has also never been legal in Legacy and indeed by any stretch of the imagination is a safer unban.

My point still is that we (that is the Legacy community) have never had the opportunity to determine the card's actual power-level in the meta-game.

[btm10]

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that Twist was a bad idea. I absolutely agree with your basic point.

[Lemnear]

Good point, Mind Twist was what came to mind first, but indeed (correct me if I am wrong, I am on my phone) Eathcraft has also never been legal in Legacy and indeed by any stretch of the imagination is a safer unban.

My point still is that we (that is the Legacy community) have never had the opportunity to determine the card's actual power-level in the meta-game.

Ancestral Recall also never was legal, but that doesn't mean we have to test it to know it's stupid. The point is that this is not how WotC works. They don't unban cards which might end up being too good and stir up shit without any other reason than YOLO. They also don't unban cards which create miserable blowout experiences like Stripmine or Mindtwist.

[H]

Ancestral Recall also never was legal, but that doesn't mean we have to test it to know it's stupid. The point is that this is not how WotC works. They don't unban cards which might end up being too good and stir up shit without any other reason than YOLO. They also don't unban cards which create miserable blowout experiences like Stripmine or Mindtwist.

Obvious statements are obvious. It isn't as if I suggested unbanning Balance. The place where the power-level of Earthcraft and Ancestral Recall intersect is in a universe that I have no access to, so your point is certainly misplaced within the context of my quote.

My point is not that everything that was never legal in Legacy needs to be tried. Some things are horrendously and obviously unfit for Legacy and those cards are pretty obvious. Earthcraft and Frantic Search are most certainly not, in my opinion, even close to broken, let alone clearly so. While Mind Twist might be somewhat problematic, and I admitted such in my post, the idea that it is on par with Ancestral Recall is so disingenuous, I'm frankly unsure why I am even bothering to refute such a seemingly deliberate misrepresentation of my argument.

[Stevestamopz]

Lol, the strawmen are out to play already. Classic b/r thread.

What's the obsession with unbanning stuff like Mind Twist and Earthcraft? Goblin Recruiter is still on the list and that is well below the power level of those two cards. Also Goblins.

Nothing will change though and we all know it. Historically Wizards have only been forced to move when even the docile masses of Legacy are vomiting on the streets at the thought of playing against the offending cards, as seen with Misstep, Dig and Cruise. What's fucking absurd is that they will only unban cards as a form of consolation prize. Why do we have to wait for some abortion to come along and fist the format for 6 months before finally unbanning cards? I fail to see the logic. It's not even a consolation prize if you think about it anyway, because most people were happy to see Dig and Cruise gone. Why not intermittently give unbans when warranted instead of making me wait forever and then giving me a huge load of cream all over my face, only after we've been dragged through the mud of whatever piece of shit had to be banned.

Lettuce be cereal, they don't give a fuck about the format (cutting GPs down, and more than likely eventually to zero soon enough) and they "can't" change the reprint policy, so what's the hold up? Let's go, give me my fucking Recruiters, give the format Twist Back so it can continue to sit in binders and.. well earthcraft is debatable (the combo b/w this, top and mentor is vomit material though so let's not). More to the point, let's see actual change and get Survival back.

[Lemnear]

Obvious statements are obvious.

-snip-

I'm frankly unsure why I am even bothering to refute such a seemingly deliberate misrepresentation of my argument.

then tell me why this thread goes over the same cards over and over again if its so obvious for you?

[H]

then tell me why this thread goes over the same cards over and over again if its so obvious for you?

Your statement that Ancestral Recall is broken is obvious. You statement that not every card that has ever been banned from the get-go of Legacy not needing testing is also obvious. That is the misrepresentation of my argument, because in no way was that what I intended by my statement about a small subset of cards (Mind Twist, Earthcraft and Frantic Search).

Why do people bring up the same cards? Perhaps because there is a real chance they aren't actually broken? People decried Black Vise as being too strong and making non-games. Still has yet to happen in any game of Legacy I have seen or heard about.

If you really consider the power level of Mind Twist to be equal or even close to equal with Ancestral Recall, there is little I can do to stretch my suspension of disbelief far enough to have a serious conversation with you. You have an idea that Mind Twist creates non-games, which it might from time to time, but fail to recognize that a deck playing turn 1 mana-ramp into Mind Twist and doesn't win the game on the spot while a deck playing mana-ramping spells Tendril of Agony wins the game on the spot. Why is one of those a perfectly acceptable "non-game" and the other totally unacceptable?

I'd much rather be Mind Twisted and be able to win off the top of my deck than lose on the spot.

[Lemnear]

Your statement that Ancestral Recall is broken is obvious. You statement that not every card that has ever been banned from the get-go of Legacy not needing testing is also obvious. That is the misrepresentation of my argument, because in no way was that what I intended by my statement about a small subset of cards (Mind Twist, Earthcraft and Frantic Search).

Point is that we know how Frantic Search works with HighTide and we know how MindTwist works in Elves for example. We did go over those countless times and there is zero gain for the format in potentially getting stripped of all your cards turn 2. How is that fun and positive for the Format as a whole which makes it worthwhile to unban the card other than just having one card off the list and risking miserable game experiences? The card reads "I win if i can make 5plus mana in the first two turns" and in that context its nowhere different to shit like Yawgmoths Bargain, which no one wants unbanned because of the blowout character and zero tradeoffs to run it (compared to AdNauseam)

Why do people bring up the same cards? Perhaps because there is a real chance they aren't actually broken? People decried Black Vise as being too strong and making non-games. Still has yet to happen in any game of Legacy I have seen or heard about.

honest opinion? Because they are either trolling or too dumb/lazy to read the last 10 pages of this thread.

For Black Vise the reason might be simply the metagame shift going away from greedy manabases as a result of the position of Chalice/Counterbalance in the format. Black Vise is dope if you can hold back your opponent from playing the game at their pace

If you really consider the power level of Mind Twist to be equal or even close to equal with Ancestral Recall, there is little I can do to stretch my suspension of disbelief far enough to have a serious conversation with you.

I did not compare the cards. I just said some cards like AR just do not testing in legacy to see they are unhealthy. It seems its you who thinks there is a big difference in leaving your opponent with 1 land and no hand in turn 2 with Mindtwist and dropping Bargain for a similar cardadvantage swing. I do not think either is healthy.

You have an idea that Mind Twist creates non-games, which it might from time to time, but fail to recognize that a deck playing turn 1 mana-ramp into Mind Twist and doesn't win the game on the spot while a deck playing mana-ramping spells Tendril of Agony wins the game on the spot. Why is one of those a perfectly acceptable "non-game" and the other totally unacceptable?

probability and investment do matter. If you counter the MindTwist against Elves you still have to deal with the creatures, not so if someone storms off right into your FoW. Its also not the case that Storm runs ANY low-investment bomb cases aside the one-off-AD-Nauseam-already-in-hand one. Thats quite the difference when comparing scenarios with 4 Twists in Elves for example and current storm decks which not only need more mana to essentially win (compared to Twist) but also do not leave behind a board of creatures when failing.

I'd much rather be Mind Twisted and be able to win off the top of my deck than lose on the spot.

win off a single landdrop made and no hand? How often do that happen to mark this a convincing argument that MindTwist is fair and creates exciting games so unbanning is worth it. Just to note: The Unban-camp is in the duty to convince WotC that the card is safe, not WotC proving the card is still bonkers and swingy (which I outlined)

[Dice_Box]

then tell me why this thread goes over the same cards over and over again

Because I am not aloud to lock the thread and put us all out of our misery.

In other news. No changes are expected on all fronts, though I would like to see Pod, Preordain or Twin unbanned in Modern.