Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
But we were all so happy.. why oh why do I/we always find a way to check this threadOriginally Posted by Mr Miagi
I'd just like to say, this forum becomes much more enjoable if this thread is inactive (like now for 2 weeks). Gj all!
Because masochism is a common trait of legacy player. Why do you think the second single deck thread with the most pages on this forum is Nic Fit?But we were all so happy.. why oh why do I/we always find a way to check this thread
The fact that the first one is miracles just shows that sadism is slightly more popular.
And High Tide being a non-shit option is bad for the format? Im not convinced. Elves possibly having a chance versus Miracles is bad for the format? I'm not convinced. Mind Twist reading "I win if i can make 5plus mana in the first two turns?" I am not convinced. Even in your doomsday Elves-Mind Twist scenario where they vomit their hand onto the board and Twist the opponent, they still get blown out by a Terminus off the top. Speaking of which, Top is still live of Miracles went first and played on on turn 1.
No trade offs? Sure there is, the shit topdeck that is Mind Twist in the mid to late game, where you need board presence? The all-in nature of vomiting out your hand to make mana in hopes of Twisting them and all you get it 2 Blue cards, one named Force of Will and they lose one life? Or even better, return an Island to their hand and they discard a Daze?
You believe that you have conclusively proven that Frantic Search and Mind Twist are irredeemably broken. I see no such evidence. Black Vise is a horrible card now, because Legacy decks are far too svelte and deft to be caught under such an effect with any regularity. Even if you pack your deck with Sinkholes and so on, there is no way to reliably pin your opponent down, Legacy decks in general are just too efficient to be held back like that.
There are plenty of things that a case can be made is "not healthy" for Legacy. But they exist. Yawgmoth's Bargain is absurd because it is a card draw engine, Mind Twist is nothing even vaguely like it, even if we count the "card advantage" swing. Even if you Mind Twist them for 7, there is no planet on which you would ever play Yawgmoth's Bargain and casually say, "I'll just take 7 cards."
OK, so you have a board full of Elves and no cards in hand. Storm has a Graveyard full of gas and no cards in hand. Elves top decks a Natural Order or Storm top decks a Past in Flames. So, indeed, if you counter a Mind Twist, or an Ad Nauseum, you need something further to close out the game. Removal in the case of Elves, pressure/graveyard removal in the case of Storm. Hardly a huge difference. Are you implying that when Storm fails to go off the game is literally over?
Nope, Mind Twist is not fair. Good cards in Legacy are not fair. That's the point. That's what makes it fun. If we all just swing 2/2's for 2 at each other, that's fair. And that's boring as hell. I want powerful shit, that's why I am not playing Standard or some other nonsense.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I think I need a St Andrews Cross. Anyone know of where I can find one? (Fits with my love of Stax.)
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Mind twist would see exactly 0 play in legacy, just like vise. And just like vise there are people that swear by its brokeness. I mean elves seriously? Why would elves want to twist with a board? Just GSZ or NO or even chord craterhoof or progenitus for actually winning with your board instead of getting massive card advantage . And If it's card advantage that you want there are like a billion cards you can play like the 2GGG Garruk
Frantic is more debatable but the era of X spells in legacy making big swings is deader than the Ban brainstorm Horse
Vise isn't broken. I at least argued against the unbanning because it's strictly negative EV. Either it does nothing so 0 EV or reduces the enjoyability of games if it proves to be strong enough, negative EV. I don't see a scenario where Vise would have made the format more fun.
Luckily we got the best case scenario from the unban and Vise was too weak to do jack.
I don't understand how to calculate such EV. So, if you lose to it, it has negative EV, but doesn't winning with it give a positive EV for the person playing it? So, we are still at zero EV for the match? Or does losing to something generate more negative than winning does positive? In this case, we don't have a zero-sum game here, so there must be tons more negative EV floating around? Perhaps this is why people get so upset about Terminus?
Genuinely interested in how to calculate EV in these cases, it's something often bandied about, but I have never determined the formula to understand how to calculate it.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Spot on, spot on!
Who gives a shit about twist being "unfun". Legacy is fucking miserable as is. True Name is about as uninteresting or unfun as a card can be. Terminus is unfun because you can do all the work of developing a board and you chimp opponent whom you're porting and wasting can undo it all with a single white mana at instant speed. Show and Tell is unfun because it's just a stupid fucking card when you put in better Yawgs Bargain or actual untap I win creature. Natural Order Elves is easy for even terrible players to simply steal a game. Every deck at this point has a derpy oops I win stupid uninteractive uninteresting card. What's one more
The cognitive dissonance of Legacy players is absurd when it comes to stuff like this.
"herp, food chain goblins/survival/twist would just be TOO MUCH for me to handle. The rest of the format is fine though even though the end result of unbanning this would be the exact same thing, just served up either hot, cold or up my ass."
I playtested Survival of the Fittest tonight against Reaniderp and still lost, even with a hand of Survival, Big Game Hunter, KOTR (with Karakas in my deck) and lands in hand. WOW GRISELBRAND SO FUN AND SKILL TESTING. That stuff that's on the b/r thread though? Nah, way too op mate.
Gimme a fucking break.
Is Bargain still broken? I don't see too many decks running around that would want to include it. The closest fit would probably be ANT and there it has to compete with Ad Nauseam which would be an interesting duel. Maybe I am horribly wrong but in the current fast meta, it feels safe to me.
Meh, it probably isn't as broken as it once was. It is still completely degenerate and there is no way to "reasonably" use it. Either you abuse it, or you don't play it. While Griselbrand actually has a number of upsides to Bargain, there are downsides as well so it is close to a push. Sure Griselbrand can be easier to get into play, but he is also easier to get off the table, drawing in 7's is slightly less abusable, and so on. Academy Rector is still a card and StP aside, is an easier way to win a game with Bargain.
One thing that works against it is that it is still, no matter how you slice it, a degenerate card-draw engine. Such a thing is vastly different than Mind Twist, or Earthcraft, because everyone already knows that drawing cards is most often the best thing you can be doing to win a given game. Same reason why Gush isn't and shouldn't be Legacy legal. Could it be legal? I think it could be and simply be one of the many great options to put in play off Show and Tell. But we already have what is probably enough of those.
Mind Twist is a different dimension, Bargain is the same old, same old.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
"Broken" doesn't mean "legacy unsafe." We're already at the point where everything that costs more than 4 mana to get into play has to be a game win when it does in order to be legacy viable.
When I think about Bargain taking the place of Ad in Strom I shudder a little. Maybe it's ok but if that comes off the list I want to see some testing first.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Bargain also goes in any SnT shell. DTT is quite comparable: total garbage in opening hand, and dead until turn 3...and that was just 2 cards from the top 7.
I have no problem with totally 'broken' magic as it is more fun [subjective]. Remember that 'broken' magic is overwhelmingly blue and black; so skipping over hurting fair and control strategies, you're also hurting the penetration of the three other colors in magic. No matter how positive that shift would be [subjective], it won't happen on the grounds of diminishing format diversity.
I completely disagree that DTT is comparable. Bargain in show and tell is completely useless without show and tell. With Griselbrand you can sneak that onto play. Not with bargain. With Dig you can cast it for two mana without a show and tell whole bargain rots in your hand doing actual nothing. Can't even pitch to force. Dream halls needs another black card in your deck (so another bargain) to cast it. I doubt it would be played in SnT at all. Yes it's a degenerate draw engine. Is it anymore degenerate than Ad Nauseam? Griselchimp? Glimpse? Enter the Infinite? Maybe the last one, but still. Storm is the only place that it would resemble degeneracy. And it's very difficult to say how good it would be because it would probably change the make up of what we see storm decks to be at least somewhat significantly because of its clause for drawing a card for a life versus ad nauseam caring about mana cost
People play 5cc "pick a card" in that deck and we are considering if a 6cc "get all the cards" is playable? 1 AdNauseam vs. 4 Bargains? Being able to run FoW in your storm deck?
edit:
I suspect you think that kind of game is desireable?
you could make that kind of argument for drawing any lategame lands, any lategame discard, etc.. "What if they counter/remove it?" is no freaking argument, especially if there is zero opportunity cost
you have 762 pages of thread and hundreds of people arguing over the same cards, not just me. "I" dont have to prove they are broken, "you" have to prove they are save to get them unbanned.
Does it make any difference if the CAs nature is positive or negative depending on the persepctive or if its +/-7 or +/-8? We are talking about burst plays which burry the opponent with the CA.
Its comical, that you cant differ the fact that Elves (in that scenario) have not only a clock but all the mana on the field, from storm having no mana to cast the topdecked PIF at all and neither a clock
I suspect you would have lost with Flash + Protean Hulk or Ritual + Necropotence or Ancestral Recall in your hand as well in that case. Does this mean the cards are safe?
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Sneak'n'Show is a different deck than OmniTell, featuring neither Sneak nor Grisel. In the hypothetical where DTT is banned and Bargain isn't, I don't think it's as clean an answer as to which way OmniTell pilots go. Either way, the fact remains that if you run SnT you do consider running this card. It needs to come down by turn 3 at the latest (which means Ritual deck or SnT).
It's not really about Bargain being the exact same as DTT, but they're close enough to get the same type of response from those who don't like unfair magic. We know how the community reacted to DTT, we know how it would react to a Bargain unban.
Dig Through Time did make Show and Ape a completely miserable deck, but the card was played in basically every archetype and was a main reason why it was so miserable. It made the blue dominance that much more. Would bargain make show and derp any more annoying and stupid than current cards already do? In the end it's still a deck that's trying to resolve show and tell, and if it does, you probably lose. Dig actually changed the game plan because it could be cast to find your 4 of card that you absolutely needed to find to win the game. Bargain is just slightly more, or maybe even less, powerful than a card that the deck already has access to.
My desires are irreverent. The scope of the investigation isn't "make Magic more like I would want it" it is "examine the Legacy Banned List to see if there are things that can be taken off."
Opportunity costs are never zero. Ever. In an Eldrazi deck, it isn't a free roll that they run so many Sol-Lands, they run a large number of lands. And so there is an opportunity cost there that they may draw too many, or a string of them at a critical time. Same goes for Mind Twist. Run 4 so you can see them early? That is -4 Elves in your Elves deck that wants to cast Glimpse of Nature. That's not zero. It may be small, but it certainly isn't zero.
Indeed and looking back, people have been saying for years that Mind Twist is probably about as safe as Black Vise. So, what weight does that carry in the balance of the 762? I don't work at Wizards. No one at Wizards would ever listen to me. I don't have to prove anything. I am simply refuting your point that you have somehow proven Mind Twist to be irrevocably broken. You have stated your opinion and I have stated mine. None of us have the upper hand here, so stop making it seem like I am being irrational and you have some balance of truth on your side.
So, by that logic, running a deck that would discard your opponent's hand is as good as one that would refill it's own? Sorry, there is a reason why Blue is the dominant color in Magic's history and it isn't because it often take cards out of an opponent's hand. But you already know this. There is no way you think that Ancestral Recall is the same printed as is, or if it said "Target player discards 3 cards." Sure, that's good, but you are saying it would be just as good?
I can differentiate. Indeed, Elves would be far better. And why shouldn't it be? Is there some bias where Elves has to be a shit deck? Why can't it have Mind Twist and have a chance to be the best deck in Legacy? Frankly none of that bothers me in the slightest.
And before you think I am some Elves player, I dislike the deck, I dislike playing it and I dislike playing against it. But my personal feelings are meaningless here, I am evaluating the playablity of Mind Twist. I wouldn't hold it back just because it makes a deck I don't like better.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
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