All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

Is there some bias where Elves has to be a shit deck? Why can't it have Mind Twist and have a chance to be the best deck in Legacy? Frankly none of that bothers me in the slightest.

First of all, it isn`t a shit deck and second, WotC isn`t going to "test" potential broken cards by unbanning them, let them wreck havoc and ban them again just because they never had their shot in Legacy

[dragonwisdom]

First of all, it isn`t a shit deck and second, WotC isn`t going to "test" potential broken cards by unbanning them, let them wreck havoc and ban them again just because they never had their shot in Legacy

They need to unban the following cards.

1) Earthcraft

2) MindTwist - maybe

3) Survival of the Fittest

4) Memory Jar

The Legacy banned list has been comical over the last few years. Black vise, Land Tax and Worldgorger Dragon have had no effect on Legacy.
They need to unban cards that the have the potential to create new archetypes and they need to unban cards that will make a top 8.

[DarthVicious]

They need to unban the following cards.

1) Earthcraft

2) MindTwist - maybe

3) Survival of the Fittest

4) Memory Jar

The Legacy banned list has been comical over the last few years. Black vise, Land Tax and Worldgorger Dragon have had no effect on Legacy.
They need to unban cards that the have the potential to create new archetypes and they need to unban cards that will make a top 8.

Earthcraft and Mind Twist are being debated currently. My own opinions are biased towards Twist, but I doubt it will ever happen.
Survival... uhh... I have no opinions on. Someone else can debate that.
But suggesting to unban Jar is insane.

[Megadeus]

As an Enchantress player I'm not sure if Earthcraft would make enchantress merely good or tier 1.5 whatever. It might attract more players to the deck which would be key to it being more top 8's. I'm not sure how good it would be in elves which is commonly the deck people say it would go in. I'm not an elves expert, but it is a nice piece to keep a glimpse chain going. Otherwise it's a do nothing 2 drop whereas at least with Birchlore it's a dude.

[apple713]

Earthcraft and Mind Twist are being debated currently. My own opinions are biased towards Twist, but I doubt it will ever happen.
Survival... uhh... I have no opinions on. Someone else can debate that.
But suggesting to unban Jar is insane.

im all for unbanning survival, but i have no desire to see a 5 mana draw 7 like memory jar back in the format.

[Stevestamopz]

4) Memory Jar

[rufus]

im all for unbanning survival, but i have no desire to see a 5 mana draw 7 like memory jar back in the format.

Reforge the Soul is legal and nobody plays it.

[Fox]

Reforge the Soul is legal and nobody plays it.

And that would be b/c you would need Leyline of Anticipation in play. Little is gained by firing off your Rits in response to miracle trigger, drawing 7 new cards, then emptying your mana pool as you move to 1st main. The card isn't played b/c you're locked out of sorcery speed.

[sjmcc13]

4) Memory Jar

Sure lets un-ban Minds Desire while we are at it....

Seriously Jar is not safe and will likely never be. Jar + welder is nuts, and you can still tutor it into play with transmute artifact.

[Darkenslight]

Sure lets un-ban Minds Desire while we are at it....

Seriously Jar is not safe and will likely never be. Jar + welder is nuts, and you can still tutor it into play with transmute artifact.

Nah, MD ius clearly nucking futs.

But IMO, Jar is overpowewred, but I don't think it's Overpowered for Legacy, as it stands. There's anough potent aggro, and I don't think there's a combo deck that would run 4, because of its cost. It would definitely be a signal to the playerbase, though.

But the far more likely unbans are Twist and Earthcraft, with a possible ban for Miracles.

[Lemnear]

Too bad that "fuck off and read the last 20 Pages of this thread where we discussed [cardname] in depth rather than bringing up the topic again" isn't an adequate response, so I won't touch certain cards for discussion again for every troll or idiot who drops by.

Jar however we didn't have for a while and I think that looking at Combo decks is totally off because of the sheer number of blue decks in the format which draw into countermagic if you break the Jar and stop you anyways. All the draw7 effects work only if you can dump your hand and get a fresh grip if you don't really care what your opponent drew. Combo decks do care and that's the reason these Type of effect doesn't see much Legacy play.

Jar is a card for Elves, MUD, 12-Post and potentially Belcher to burry opponents with the cardadvantage. Comparing Jar to Reforge the Soul and friends isn't fitting. First because you break jar with ALL your mana available, second because of all the shenanigans with Welder and stuff

[Gheizen64]

Just unban Survival i want to play TnT in this format once again.

Just look at this beauty!

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 Taiga
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Lotus Petal

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Welder
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Fire Imp
1 Su-Chi
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormenting Voice

[Lemnear]

Just unban Survival i want to play TnT in this format once again.

Just look at this beauty!

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 Taiga
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Lotus Petal

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Welder
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Fire Imp
1 Su-Chi
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Flametongue Kavui
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormenting Voice

Why not play a good Survival deck? I mean, the next to happens is that one takes this list, tests it against Belcher, loses and then claims Survival is safe because he lost with it xD

[Stevestamopz]

Why not play a good Survival deck? I mean, the next to happens is that one takes this list, tests it against Belcher, loses and then claims Survival is safe because he lost with it xD

(Snip removed)
Dice

I have literally never seen someone use exclusively strawmans the way you do.

[Dice_Box]

Personal attacks will be meet with infractions. Only warning.

[Gheizen64]

Why not play a good Survival deck? I mean, the next to happens is that one takes this list, tests it against Belcher, loses and then claims Survival is safe because he lost with it xD

Dunno, why not make good arguments ? xD

I never said that was actually the best survival list, i just said i wanted to play TnT in this format again, but maybe i expressed myself too badly, i apologize if so

[dragonwisdom]

Dunno, why not make good arguments ? xD

I never said that was actually the best survival list, i just said i wanted to play TnT in this format again, but maybe i expressed myself too badly, i apologize if so

I am not sure that memory jar is really all that broken. There are many combos with welder. He usually dies to removal or gets countered.

In any case they need to unban cards that will actually have an effect. I don't think that jar would dominate. At least no more than delver or brainstorm.

[Finn]

Oh, this [word that rhymes with "cupid"] thread. Some comments deserve ostracism. I will settle for a quick note.

----{sigh}----

I am not sure that memory jar is really all that broken. There are many combos with welder. He usually dies to removal or gets countered.

In any case they need to unban cards that will actually have an effect. I don't think that jar would dominate. At least no more than delver or brainstorm.

While Legacy is a much more powerful format than any format 4x Memory Jar has ever been legal in, and I suspect the format can handle it, this is not an argument. I am pretty sure that Eldrazi would adopt this card and grow quite a but in strength as it warps into a deck that can empty its hand as fast as possible. Not sure how I feel about that. Eldrazi is an excellent format-balancing deck atm, and Jar would tip the scales.

[adrieng]

Memory jar is not that broken when we have 2cc griselbrand through entomb. 5cc just draw is not good enough for this format, will see some light play but not more.

Mindtwist I see this card could see some play with grim monolith tomb and so on but it might not be that broken.
Don't forget there is urborg, tomb so turn one grim monolith voltaic key turn 2 mindtwist your hand could be good.
that could be good but not that broken compare to others stuff we have and could make bigEldrazi a good deck. Withouth monolith that's at best a turn two hymn to tourach.
Safe to unban.

Earthcraft I don't see this card being good enough for a combo deck. It is safe.

Survival : no we can't unban that stuff it is op. That's a 2CC I win card compare to shit like memory jar or earthcraft the card is way more powerfull. Survival can give you griselbrand through 2w cards can give you an army of recursive vengevines that laugh at terminus,
answers to survival hate, answers to combo via iona. There is no valid point at making it unban. I LOLED at people saying survival is safe and memory jar isn't survival gives you grisou on the table turn 3.

I personally would like to see mindesire unbanned the card is not that good, 6cc card I might win if I casted some spells is not that op.

Don't forget that what matters the most is the casting cost survival does way too much for 2 mana.

I am personally favorable at the ban of either top or Counterbalance, miracle is way too powerfull for the format ; counterbalance is format warping since the begenning of its printing and invalidates lot of strategies.
Abrupt decay print made it ok, but lot of decks are being destroyed by this card and I think more than terminus. The fact that you can't overextend is fair (we have lot of sweepers) but the fact that if you don't overextend you get punished by CB to not cast your spells is not.

I would prefer see CB being banned because top allowed not to play blue with better consistency and It would keep miracle being a good deck.

[Finn]

Reforge the Soul is legal and nobody plays it.

Rufus, these are entirely different effects. With Memory Jar, there are a variety of good ways to avoid paying the casting cost, and all colorless mana makes it much more accessible if you do plan to hard cast it. Also your opponent mostly does not get to use the cards he gets. They get discarded at eot. I have faced and used the card quite a few times. It is a much bigger card advantage shift than Wheel of Fortune and friends.

Really, I just wanted to say that. I would be ambivalent about an unban, mostly because of all the powerful colorless Eldrazi cards that have seen print of late, not to mention the new land to fetch it.