The pieces emphasized are the usual boarded out pieces too. And upon inserting the 3rd probe (combined with 4 bstorms, a ponder and a sylvan) It does somehow gets you what you need. Even when just having less copies. As i've mentioned, my meta was chalice heavy... A turn 1 cotv 1 is just so devastating vs this deck, so the 4th fow is a MUST for me... But combos will also appear everytime, and that can also be covered with the 4th fow. We could somehow say it’s meta gaming, that’s fair... but the cuts I made are geared towards me having a deck that can matchup well with anything (that’s from my point of view).
Here’s the matchups i usually shave off numbers of hierarchs:
(combos: reanimators, storms, SnT decks/miracles/chalice decks)
The full hierarchs, to me mattered most vs Dnts.. (newbs often times board out revokers, so x4 hierarchs is a MUST here vs tax)
I just hate drawing them mid-game! (same with stifles, coming from a RUG player : )
Dazes are cut often times. I just leave them still facing any unfair when boarding.
The list is discussed as a TEST LIST, been piloting this deck for years, been succesful with numerous number 1 finishes and multiple top8’s too... but I really felt I need some tweaking, and somehow the recent adjustments I made is good as it was another success days ago. This is the list im going to use this sunday on a major tourney... and see whether i’ll go back to the stocklists.
For newer players here on the forum, make sure you truly understand how the deck works. The stocklists are less than 8 cards difference from every infect deck that made it what it is today, a DTB, and that should always be your starting point.
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Commission Status: FULL!!! Commission Line to open: 2019
Jesture honestly, 4 FoW is totally fine, and the other changes are minor and hardly controversial. Also, if this was some newb suggesting 4 maindeck Spellskite or something I could see your point, but poxy clearly know what he is doing.
This would be a really sad place if we couldn't discuss minor tweaks like that. Are you saying we should all play Mtg with preconstructed decks?
Where do you get this idea of a 'stock' list from anyway, what are the 75, and even more importantly, do you feel that list is tier 1 in the current metagame?
Last edited by Cartesian; 09-27-2016 at 05:41 AM.
This seems fine. I'm not 100% sold on the 4 Force approach, but its far from "wrong." None of it's controversial, but there's plenty of room to discuss what's optimal.Originally Posted by Cartesian
As an example, Relic of Progenitus seems like suboptimal graveyard hate. I just don't think it's quite as good as our other options.
Correct on both accounts.
I am not saying that. Please don't hyperbolize, it detracts from the conversation.
The stock list as I understand it:
8x green fetches
4x tropical island (can swap out a trop for a savannah)
4x inkmoth nexus
1x Pendelhaven
1x Forest
1x Wasteland
4x noble hierarch
4x glistener elf
4x blighted agent
4x invigorate
2x berserk
2x vines of the vastwood
1x become immense
8x pieces of counter magic
4x brainstorm
2x gitaxian probe
1x ponder
1x crop rotation
4x flex slots (3rd vines, sylvan, stifle, probe, swords, extra counter magic, whatever)
Tier lists are a slippery slope. I've referred to The Source's decks to beat as an unofficial tier list, but that's only because they've taken a lot of time and care to quantify their methods and not rely on subjective feelings or experiences. So yeah, colloquially I'd refer to U/G infect as tier one. In an argument, I would stay the hell away from that assertion.
As an aside, I've always felt that the burden of testing and proof for minor tweaks should fall on the people who support them. Poxy has listed some unusual deck choices, and followed up said choices with some reasons as to why they're good. But there's an opportunity cost associated with every individual card choice that's being completely neglected. Maybe some discussion on why these new ideas were previously avoided would help round out the issue.
Edit: Apologies, missed Poxy's follow-up post due to the page break which definitely addressed a lot of what I felt was lacking in the first post. Made some changes in light of this development.
I'm seeing some lists with a second wasteland in the board, what does that come in against?
Great against:
1. Lands (Glacial Chasm really hard to beat)
2. Sol Land decks -- Eldrazi, Tezzeret, random Stompy Builds, Sneak and Show
3. Mirror
4. Maverick/AggroLoam (if you bring in 2 needles it's not as important)
5. Death and Taxes (same)
Pretty good against:
6. Delver/Wasteland decks (+1 land, fights their wastelands)
7. Burn (save 2-4 dmg from Price of Progress)
Interested to hear what others think who are on the extra wasteland plan.
Exactly bloody to the point right. Has some application vs elves too.
Sir, I'm officially a fan.:)
Also, double creature sideboards work well in many a meta. Grixis and friends? Double up on spellskites / necropedes. Chalice decks everywhere? 2x corrupter ftw.
Hi infect players,
This has just been released in Kaladesh :
New toy for the deck ??
This card has just beendiscussed one page back..Hi infect players,
This has just been released in Kaladesh :
New toy for the deck ??
I think a 1 off can be seen in a few lists. as the 3rd vines. its capable of doing good things for less mana.
Neffy cut a ponder! We should kill him
On another note; how are people liking Viridian corrupter?
I've never been a huge fan, but seeing as i might want more infect dudes from the board, he might be an option?
Do you play him without GSZ and arbor package? Do you ever run GSZ without arbor (I dont like arbor in this deck)?
Corrupter can do nice stuff against shardless for example, killing a problematic strix or be outright nasty against DT..
Other uses for him that any of you have found?
Neffy cut a ponder! We should kill him
Same here with VC, but lately with the rise of eldrazi's, chalices deck.. I included the 2nd copy in my sb.
Im not into the gsz package too, unless I wanna have fun with the NO Package (natural Order/Progenitus/DArbor) in my sb list back : )
VC's are good vs shardless! lots or targets here. Opposing decks usually carries needles that negates our inkmoths, I would also cut a glistener for another VC vs mudrazi's... it's gonna up our creature quality, and avoids that dreadly cotv1.
In other news...
Did perform well in the team tourney yesterday, unfortunately we lost the top4 clinching game when 2 of my team mates lost. (3-2) in matches I played.
Shouldve gone 4-1 when I secured the lone savannah, i have stp, waiting for grimlavaman vs UR game3... I just brainstormed and flushed out remaining lands. I landed a Glistener my turn (hand is vines, invi, stp) lands... (trops, savannah, pendelhaven).... my opponent has no cards, no blocker. He topdecked a Bloodmoon on his turn! devastating loss!
(W vs eldrazi/shardless/lands) (L vs eldrazi/ur)
My friend also brought the same list I had. I lend him my extra trops and missing 1 card from my 75 which is the lone flusterstorm, instead he replaced it with a dispel. They went on the win the tourney (split with fellow Team Budget members placing 1st and 2nd), with the match clinching flusterstorm vs empty the warrens, game 3. The deck is just solid vs combos! He started OTD since theyre seeded low, but managed to escape game1 fast. He also mentioned to me he 2-0'ed an omnitell. I dont know his other matchups.
decklist: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13645&d=280309&f=LE
piloted by my friend Philip Montalba (dispel in SB was another fluster in my list, we ran out of spares : )
I didnt miss the 4th noble so far, and confident in every matchup vs combo with solid permissions.
The 2 crop rots worked well too! vs chalice 1, and no creatures.. I let 1 resolved vs eldrazi, in response crop rot to inkmoth FTW next turn with multiple invis.
I watched my friend too, wrecked a combo with 1 usea and play, saw opp. somehow brainstormed lock and fetch wasteland. Bam!
I shouldve tried the Blossoming Defense as my 3rd vine, I think that will fit that certain space if you wanna include it. Unfortunately I forgot bringing in mine. It works well toxic deluge, pyroclasms, roughs and other -1/-1/ mass spells that doesnt target. Will test more this weekend before another big tourney mid October. Have fun infecting guys!
Last edited by poxy14; 10-04-2016 at 02:58 AM.
Poxy14 ALTERED CARDS:
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Commission Status: FULL!!! Commission Line to open: 2019
Had a 6 round tourny at the LGS. 4-2 and 4th place in prizes.
Wanted to test 1 singleton blossoming defense over the third vines, and a V.corrupter in the board (no GSZ)
R1 4c bant blade 2-1
Game 1 he races me, as I draw no pumps.
G2 I Get his jitte with corrupter - very nice. I have more dudes than he has removal.
G3 is tight, but i get there. i chained good cards like, blighted, invi, invi. with flusterstorm ready.
R2 elves 0-2
G1 he goes pendelhaven+nettle, I go pendelhaven + elf. He builds up mana and i have only 1 daze. He NOs for a big crater turn 3 for the kill
G2 goes a bit longer, and he orders again. Fails to find crater since one is in hand and he boarded the other one out.. lol. much luck. Game continues and I have needle for dual symbiote. he decays. I keep him off Cradle with croprot into wasteland, but blighted agent never sees pump and he hard casts crater.
R3 Bug nic fit 2-0
This MU can go both ways. Lost against him before, even tho he doesnt play so tightly. Innocent blood and p. deeds are nasty.
G1 i have land go, the blinds cabals naming glistener (...eh?) and fails. I go blighted agent and noble + sylvan which he has no asnwer for (only deed in hand) which i had daze for.
G2 i mulligan and see probe, 2x ponder, noble, land, blighted - keep. He goes probe into cabal naming ponder (auch!).
I draw surgical i think (had it in for deeds) - probes him and see cabal, misty, thoughtseize, notion thief, brainstorm. I surgical his cabal seeing it as a dead card here. And i need my cards. he seizes and take blighted. I get an elf down later, and draws 2 invigorate in a row. I also had blossoming defense here, so i was able to hit for 11 (non-kill if it had been vines!)
R4 UR delver 2-0
A friends younger brother (still new). He draws delver that i force. He has forked bolt for both my elves. I have blighted and pendel and noble and begin beats. he has chaser, reveler and swiftspear, and I take the kill with become immense and invi with fluster backup
G2 Almost the same, he has 2 flipped delvers and 1 swiftspear tho, which clock me. I race with elf and get 2 inkmoth down. He doesnt see the danger and attacks with both delvers, and I fly over his swiftspear with pump spells. he hopes his daze saves him, but i still had mana from an untapped noble.
R5 death and taxes 2-1
Love playing against this deck. Games were much tighter than they should have been.
G1 he has vial and mothers that i dont care about. i probe and see leonon arbiter and 2 serra avengers. I freaking forgot the arbiter and he vialed it in when i fetched. stupid - but turned out that land would never have been able to fetch as he would just keep his vial ready, and i did not drew other mana really. he beats me down with 2 mothers, and the angels +arbiter
G2 turn 1 noble for mana, then elf. He has mothers that still dont matter really. i kill him fast.
G3 is so tight. He keeps attacking with 2 mothers and leonin. I have 3 blighted from starting hand - 2 on the board. One is forced to block a mother to stay at 4 life, 1 is pitched to fow for saving the other one on the field from a STP. He has needle on inkmoth, but never drew any. He taxes me with port every turn, but begins to find jitte (remebered to pay 2 from leonin.. dang), thalia and ethersworns. He attacks with his mother and leonin - my hand is krosan, invi and crop - i crop for pendelhaven and blocks leonin and pumps (take 1 down to 3!). He now has thalia, mother, jitte+unknown card in hand, SFM and ethersworn. My turn i attack and pump (as my only spell dude to ethersworn) to put him to 9psn. Next turn he SFMs jitte in, equips to ethersworn to make his alpha strike - i krosan the jitte, take the damage and kills him next turn.
R6 4C delver 0-2
A mate of mine.
G1 i have bligthed, trop, invi, berserk, daze and some other. he draws all his decay and takes out my library and agent. Later he is at 6psn. I have vines probe and blighted in play. He has 1 card - probe shows that it is his last decay.... i die to tnn next turn so i have to go for it - and he decays to vine on stack.
G2 I go trop noble, he goes trop drs which i daze. i play inkmoth and blighted and have invi + berserk + fluster ready for the kill next turn. He wastes and decays my infecters.... and i never get back up.
A clunky report, but you get the picture.
The list worked really well and im impressed by corrupter (who would have thought). Blossoming defense got me a game that vines wouldnt have, so yeah.
I wont change much next time - the skite did nothing - could have been a teferi's response which would have been great.
My list was this
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Pendelhaven
4 Tropical Island
1 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Become Immense
2 Berserk
4 Blighted Agent
1 Blossoming Defense
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Glistener Elf
4 Invigorate
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
2 Vines of Vastwood
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dismember
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Karakas
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle (1 more needle in place of the third artifact/enchantment hate)
1 Spellskite
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Viridian Corrupter
Last edited by Neffy; 10-06-2016 at 03:08 AM.
Neffy cut a ponder! We should kill him
Nice results, guys.
I've been running VC in the board lately as well (seeing more stompy/Eldrazi decks w/chalice and a friend of mine plays Tezz) and have been super happy with it, even more so after I cut Green Sun.
I'm confused why you like it more after cutting green sun's. GSZ helps you find it when you need it.
I think it just comes down to not wanting to take up the slot. GSZ helps find Corrupter and can tutor up Elf or Hierarch in a pinch, but I didn't really have anything I wanted to cut main board and I'd rather have an extra K Grip in the board (since it can hit Blood Moon and Couterbalance, etc too).
4-0'd the last couple weeklies at my LGS and both times Corrupter hasn't had to eat a Chalice but was a great value draw in some slower matches, taking out Strix against BUG and Painter and a Lotus Petal in different games against Imperial Painter.
What's everyone packing in their board against Storm these days? I've been running 1 Flusterstorm/1 Pierce main and cut Cage from my board, so I've just been boarding out Become Immense and Sylvan and bringing in RIP and Surgical, plus changing up the Daze/Force mix a bit depending on whether I'm drawing or playing.
You shouldn't be cutting any Dazes, FoW's or other counter magic against Storm. This is a pretty typical example of a situation where we want to be primarily a tempo deck and secondarily a combo deck. As we run around 8 counterspells maindeck, and around 10 total postboard plus some relevant hate cards, it should be easy enough to keep your opponent off balance while you set up a fast clock with your cheap threats.
I'm assuming you're playing against ANT (which I've found to be 55/45 our favor), but if it's TES the percentages flip and you really just have to do your best to not succumb to a fast turn 1-2 Empty the Warrens backed up by some number of Therapies. I've talked to some talented TES pilots, and they mentioned that boarding out Hierarchs entirely isn't a bad option, as tapping out on turn 1 for a mana dork instead of leaving up a Pierce or Flusterstorm is often enough to lose you the game.
My typical plan against storm is to board out 3 Inkmoths, 2 Vines (out of 3), and 2-3 Hierarchs (3-4 against TES). Become Immense stays in as its pretty natural to dump 5 cards into the yard between cantrips, soft permission, and fetch lands. All counterspells stay in and are sided in. Graveyard hate comes in against ANT, but is often not relevant against TES. If you're struggling for sideboard playables, Nature's Claim can come in to gain you four life off on an Inkmoth or punish sloppy sequencing by disenchanting an LED in response to a non-tutor action.
Something of note is Tom Ross says its worth leaving in Sylvan Library against ANT on the play. I've had mixed results with it, but there is a certain charm to responding to a discard spell with a draw 3 at the beginning of your next turn. Would be curious to hear how others feel about this.
Piracy charm would be a nice replacement for gutshot; it can pump your guys, kill x/1s, give evasion, or rarely take the last clutch card from their hand, plus it pitches to force (always a plus!). Karakas is good for legendary monsters, even if you dont play white (omnitell). Against eldrazi, the new ceremonious rejection or maze of ith are useful, as is the aforementioned propaganda.
Poxy, i wrote you a PM about Reality Ripple :)
Neffy cut a ponder! We should kill him
I agree with JESTURE, basically I never cut down any countermagic whether otp/otd vs any unfair... even when im down to 2 dazes main.. It'll stay there no matter what. My boarding plan is usually shaving off a few inkmoths, nobles are not very helpful vs these matchups, and though I can pitch blighted to a fow, a 2cc spell together with a sylvan is like inviting trouble when you tapped out. Another concern for us too is to land an early threat. Inkmoths as a clock vs combos is not good. In this matchup, we shift to control mode. The perfect threat here is Glistener. He'll get there!
(maindeck: 4 fows/1 flusterstrom/2dazes/2pierces)
vs STORM: + 2flusterstorms/1RIP/1surgical extraction/1grafdiggers (relic before)
- 1 sylvan, 1 inkmoth, 2nobles, 1vines
@Neffy: replied to your message : )
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Commission Status: FULL!!! Commission Line to open: 2019
Hi folks,
Here is Tom Ross' approach of Storm :
"They're a turn faster oftentimes and get to see your hand and disrupt you well. Take out three copies of Inkmoth Nexus as they're too slow to matter. You want all your countermagic. Piracy Charm is nice as a hedge against them having Xantid Swarm and the sweet possibility of sniping their last card in hand when trying to storm off."
As far I'm concerned, I'm currently testing a 3 wasteland maindeck in order to have a better MU vs Eldrazi which is a lot played here in France. I cut a tropical island and a Crop rotation, because with that configuration Crop becomes less usefull maindeck (Waste is a target to crop, and Waste buys you time to get the solution you're waiting. Plus Crop is weak versus Chalice and Counterbalance).
For now, I only have a few tests with this list (less than 20 rounds) but Wasteland have offered me a new game plan vs various matchups : cutting white to a reckless Miracles player, bringing denial vs ElDrazi for the win, preventing BR Reanimator to start...
I'm also testing a single copy of Noxious revival.
Because the card can do pretty stupid things like bringing back the invigorate you used the turn before or upkeep : invi > noxious > draw invigorate
Have you guys tried it ?
Last edited by Adibou1er; 10-12-2016 at 11:01 AM.
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