The biggest problem with Dead Weight versus Disfigure is that Disfigure is an instant.
Which matchups will it matter in? Honestly, I'm not for sure. I'm not saying it's better than Disfigure but it does have some interesting applications, not necessarily all the ones offered, perhaps...Originally Posted by matunos
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It matters a lot vs manlands and flash creatures. And also for curving out on the play. As lot of people have started playing fewer wastelands in shardless, making your efficient spot removal unable to target stuff like inkmoth nexus will leave you pretty vulnerable to infect etc.
Thank you very much again for your answer!
I will try out the discard myself but it helps a lot to know the reasoning behind the numbers (e.g.: 2-3 Thoughtseizes seemed a bit awkward on first sight^^). Unfortunately, I won't be able to play this week but this gives me more time to build a nice list=)
I totally agree on the Wastelands - I think it is an important angle of midrange grindy decks with DRS. After playing some games with the Brainstorm's Show List, I couldn't fight the feeling that it lacks some interaction/angles I was used to with Jund. Especially the Discard/Wasteland Plan seems very important to fight other strategies. Just cascading into Goyfs or drawing X cards doesn't seem to do the trick alone (+ we don't have that much removal or counter spells). It seems much better if you can strip them from their ressources and fill up instantly while they recover much more slowly.
Btw is anyone going to Prague this November and consider playing Shardless BUG?
Kind regards,
C
Aside from the fact that fewer than 3 Wastelands is almost certainly suboptimal (so I'm not that worried about creature-lands) , Instant speed has a lot of subtle benefits that you don't notice until you actually test Dead Weight.
Dead Weight is at its best in large creature matchups, where Goyf sizing matters most and where Disfigure often can't kill the most threatening creature our opponent has. In principle, putting Dead Weight on something like Reality Smasher or Gurmag Angler is quite good since it can't attack or block even if Goyf is only a 4/5. But the loss of instant speed also means that you can no longer use Disfigure as a combat trick to make your ubiquitous Agent + X double blocks trade with creatures that are free to attack on the surface, and creatures enchanted with Dead Weight are the first ones that get sacrificed to Liliana, meaning it can take longer before she can start to grind in earnest. Finally, Sorcery speed is a disaster against Death and Taxes. I'm always looking for potential Enchantments to work into the deck, but the bar is currently at Sylvan Library and Engineered Plague and slightly above Courser of Kruphix.
Last edited by btm10; 09-27-2016 at 10:36 PM.
The argument against running more than 3-4 discard spells main is that they're on diminishing returns against fair decks. Brainstorm means people are less likely to end up with conditional spells or 4+ drops stuck in their hand like they do in Modern, so drawing Thoughtseize late is generally worse than drawing the other cards already in Shardless. A few Tar Pits or Factories (on top of Wastelands) turn on even your 6th and 7th land drops while a turn 5 Thoughtseize is almost always just waiting for a Brainstorm or Liliana.
The larger topic I wanted to bring up is new cards. MD Jitte is the closest this deck has come to having new tech in years, and I think that we as a community have been remiss in keeping stock-ish lists up to date. I'm going to list some cards I'm considering and my thought processes surrounding them in an effort to spur discussion. I'm not going to distinguish between MD and sideboard, but that can be part of the discussion.
1. City of Solitude
This is a card that I've actually tested, and it was surprisingly good. It turns off Ports, Vial and Mom on your turn, and Stage/Depths on your end step. It obviously totally wrecks Miracles as well. The downside is that it doesn't play to the board against D&T and is pretty slow against Lands, and it feels like it would end up in the sideboard slot that typically goes to Needle or Null Rod, both of which are important against combo decks where you need to have enough stuff to bring in for Decays and whatever other on-board interaction you've got in the main.
2. Jitte #2
Downside: Cascade + Legend Rule is quite the nonbo, and we already have a ton of cards that are good in fair matchups. It might be higher upside than an additional Disfigure or Dismember against creaure decks, but the downside is pretty bad. It does take two turns to come online in the early game.
Upside: When I said it was too slow before, I was very wrong. It's extremely good in any fair matchup, including Miracles. If your opponent is playing creatures, the entire game becomes about the Jitte, and it's almost impossible for them to win without destroying it if you get counters.
3. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
There was a period right after my local Eldrazi players realized the Shardless matchups was ugly that I started facing some pretty hateful deckbuilding from them. Went W/R with Battlefield Forge for Displacer and Obligator out of the board, and another found space for nonsense like Blight Herder and Oblivion Sower alongside Awakening Zone. My answer ended up being a single MD Nissa, and I was definitely impressed. The Plants are excellent blockers, and her minus makes even Baleful Strix a potent attacker. I've never ultimated her.
4. Liliana, the Last Hope
I have ultimated this one, and it's pretty great. She's actually better than Liliana of the Veil against D&T and is conditionally better a lot of other places. She's also conditionally worse in a lot of places, and all-around worse against Eldrazi, Lands and combo. I think the emblem is more dangerous than Do or Die + Bend or Break, though it's very linear and doesn't do much in some matchups. That being said, Terminus is not enough to contain the emblem.
5. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
While not as powerful as other Planeswalkers named Jace, he also doesn't cost 4. The loot is often great filtering, especially since he can also fog something while transforming. He's blue, and being 2 cmc is a downside against Decays but an upside against unfair decks, where he often lets you rebuy a Thoughtseize, cantrip, or Hymn on turn 3. He's vulnerable to graveyard hate, but as long as he transforms his plus has text even without the minus, and again, the emblem is a beating.
I did very well with a stock(ish) list in the last two major tournaments I played early this summer, getting 2nd in a Super IQ and 14th at an SCG Classic. That being said, I agree that Shardless has stagnated and needs some tech. I have a couple insights to provide in support of your suggestions.
I've started running a 1/1 split of the two Lilianas. Last Hope seems really strong, especially against Death and Taxes. The -2 is also great with Strix and Shardless. I haven't had a chance to test extensively, but if there were a major tournament tomorrow, I would stick with the 1/1 split and run a couple edicts in the board. Along those lines:
I've also dropped big Jace in favor of baby Jace. I've played Shardless since 2014, and big Jace has always been something of a disappointment. He wins the rare match, but he much more often just sits in my hand, or gets mulliganed/brainstormed away. I went from 2 to 1 a long time ago, and never regretted it. Flashing back a hymn with baby Jace feels great, and since we're fairly light on removal, it's nice to get extra mileage there as well.
With dropping big Jace, I felt safe going from 22 to 21 land. Feels good so far.
I'm very curious about Nissa, Voice, and would love to see the list you're running her in. What did you drop for her?
Hey again!
Contrary to my expectations, I managed to play a small tournament today (20 players) and I finished 2nd with 31.
This was the list I played (it is basically Lukas Blohon's List as mentioned before):
//lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
//creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
//sorceries
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Maelstrom Pulse
//instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
//planeswalker
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
The sideboard is still WIP and tuned for my local meta (a lot of Elves + Death and Taxes, more fair MUs than unfair ones, basically no Eldrazi).
Most notable modification: I sleeved up "new Lilli" as suggested by halahel, especially considering my meta.
1) DnT (Win):
Game 1 was pretty close as I had strong board control with New Lilli. Unfortunately he managed to equip a sword on an Eidolon of Rhetorics which wrecked me in every possible way as you can imagine;-)
Game 2 was determined by Dread of Night and massive Discard followed by Shardless and Goyf.
Game 3 was super grindy but once again New Lilli had time to shine. My first plan to ult her didn't succed but she still helped to establish a strong board and got me back a Shardless Agent which turned around the corner.
2) Splinter Twin (Win):
Game 1 and 2 were quite similiar: I destroyed his hand and decayed any remaining creatures ("classic" MU from Modern I guess). It was basically an All-In-Twin without Chalices and Blood Moons Mainboard.
3) Elves (Draw):
We tested a bit on Friday and the MU seems to be terribad. Game 1 he flooded the board and managed to resolve a Packmaster that I couldn't handle.
Game 2 was quite interactive and I got to disturb him and finish his board off with a Golgari Charm.
Game 3 was also decided by a Golgari Charm which helped to clear off his board after keeping it in check with my other disruption. Due to time issues I wasn't able to finish him off.
4) DnT (Win):
Game 1 I was manascrewed (without any action taken by my opponent^^). Game 2 and 3 I stripped his hand and slowly filled the board. Engineered Plague and Dread of Night were Allstars again.
So after all, I strongly prefer the list with more Discard and Wastelands (although it seems that there is still room to crunch the numbers). I won nearly every match by destroying my opponents game plan and coming back with a Shardless Agent and/or a Visions. The New Lilli seems awesome - her removal can be very strong against certain (problematic?) decks and her -2 is strong as well - recycling an Agent is just crazy. Finally her ultimate could be a thing against grindy decks and Miracles (a friend of mine plays Aggro Loam and he ults her basically all night long^^). Due to Brainstorm/Library we also have some kind of card selection so a split seems reasonable. Thus we have an answer/out for every MU.
As far as the SB is concerned, I think I need to tune it against Combo (especially for an open field). Otherwise, I was happy to overload on sweepers - especially the permanent based ones seem pretty awesome (Dread of Night is not that narrow btw - it also helps against Miracles).
Regarding possible new inclusions, I will definitely try Baby Jace, he seems to fit into this deck perfectly. What about Snapcaster Mage?
Kind regards
C
Elves is a pretty wretched matchup since they can grind almost as well as we can and we can't race them before the grind starts. I've also been on the 1/1 Liliana split and have been pretty happy with it. I've still found that 6 discard spells maindeck are overkill, but if you make it work, then more power to you.Hey again!
Contrary to my expectations, I managed to play a small tournament today (20 players) and I finished 2nd with 3
This was the list I played (it is basically Lukas Blohon's List as mentioned before):
//lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
//creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
//sorceries
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Maelstrom Pulse
//instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
//planeswalker
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
The sideboard is still WIP and tuned for my local meta (a lot of Elves + Death and Taxes, more fair MUs than unfair ones, basically no Eldrazi).
Most notable modification: I sleeved up "new Lilli" as suggested by halahel, especially considering my meta.
1) DnT (Win):
Game 1 was pretty close as I had strong board control with New Lilli. Unfortunately he managed to equip a sword on an Eidolon of Rhetorics which wrecked me in every possible way as you can imagine;-)
Game 2 was determined by Dread of Night and massive Discard followed by Shardless and Goyf.
Game 3 was super grindy but once again New Lilli had time to shine. My first plan to ult her didn't succed but she still helped to establish a strong board and got me back a Shardless Agent which turned around the corner.
2) Splinter Twin (Win):
Game 1 and 2 were quite similiar: I destroyed his hand and decayed any remaining creatures ("classic" MU from Modern I guess). It was basically an All-In-Twin without Chalices and Blood Moons Mainboard.
3) Elves (Draw):
We tested a bit on Friday and the MU seems to be terribad. Game 1 he flooded the board and managed to resolve a Packmaster that I couldn't handle.
Game 2 was quite interactive and I got to disturb him and finish his board off with a Golgari Charm.
Game 3 was also decided by a Golgari Charm which helped to clear off his board after keeping it in check with my other disruption. Due to time issues I wasn't able to finish him off.
4) DnT (Win):
Game 1 I was manascrewed (without any action taken by my opponent^^). Game 2 and 3 I stripped his hand and slowly filled the board. Engineered Plague and Dread of Night were Allstars again.
So after all, I strongly prefer the list with more Discard and Wastelands (although it seems that there is still room to crunch the numbers). I won nearly every match by destroying my opponents game plan and coming back with a Shardless Agent and/or a Visions. The New Lilli seems awesome - her removal can be very strong against certain (problematic?) decks and her -2 is strong as well - recycling an Agent is just crazy. Finally her ultimate could be a thing against grindy decks and Miracles (a friend of mine plays Aggro Loam and he ults her basically all night long^^). Due to Brainstorm/Library we also have some kind of card selection so a split seems reasonable. Thus we have an answer/out for every MU.
As far as the SB is concerned, I think I need to tune it against Combo (especially for an open field). Otherwise, I was happy to overload on sweepers - especially the permanent based ones seem pretty awesome (Dread of Night is not that narrow btw - it also helps against Miracles).
Regarding possible new inclusions, I will definitely try Baby Jace, he seems to fit into this deck perfectly. What about Snapcaster Mage?
Kind regards
C
Going to 21 lands just feels really greedy with 4 Wastelands. Are you running Ponder in addition to JVP, or are you going down to 3 Wasteland/0 Tar Pit?
I totally agree on the value of rebuying Strix and Agent with Liliana, the Last Hope. The list I ran with Nissa is basically the list I linked to above, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Nissa. My main hesitations with littlest, babiest Jace are that he's slow despite being cheap and that he makes the deck more vulnerable to Rest in Peace than it already is.
EDIT: Rudy Briksza 5-0'ed a MODO Leage with a list with 3 Grim Flayer, 5 Planeswalkers, and 21 land. I like that the list has extra bodies, but I'm less sold on the low land count, no Ponder, 2 JtMS, and being stone cold to combo game 1 (and having a lackluster sideboard plan to boot). Thoughts?
Last edited by btm10; 10-01-2016 at 12:03 AM.
Normally I play without the MD Thoughtseizes but I would like to give this list a try since I am going to eternal weekend in october and I think the MD discard is better in an open big tournament meta (blohon is a much better magic player then me and he must have had a reason to run this after all).Hey again!
Contrary to my expectations, I managed to play a small tournament today (20 players) and I finished 2nd with 3
This was the list I played (it is basically Lukas Blohon's List as mentioned before):
//lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
//creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
//sorceries
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Maelstrom Pulse
//instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
//planeswalker
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
The sideboard is still WIP and tuned for my local meta (a lot of Elves + Death and Taxes, more fair MUs than unfair ones, basically no Eldrazi).
I just copied your list and will jam some rounds on cockatrice. I did make 2 changes allready though, first I changed the Jace in the SB with a Garruk because I don't see any MU where I will board in the PW where Garruk is not better. Especially Miracles. I also changed the 2nd duress to the 4th hymn, because I think 4 1 Mana Discard after boarding is enough against combo. And we can still bring in the hymn and use it agaisnt miracles as well.
I think new lili is worse then good old LotV but I will try. There is so much stuff she does't hit that makes her high variance in my mind.
I don't relly see the need for the loam in the sb which are the MU you are bringing it in? We have 0 SB GY hate now and I don't know if we can afford that.
I agree that four wastelands is way too greedy with 21 lands. I only run three wastelands. I went from four to three awhile back, when I was still running 22 lands, to add a second basic. I got tired of getting locked out from Loam/Waste, and getting stuck with wastelands against Miracles or Burn. Your concerns about baby Jace are definitely viable; I'm not totally sold on him, just trying him out because I've never been blown away by big Jace in Shardless.
I saw the 3 Flayer list today, and think that this is definitely the direction the deck needs to go. Flayer does so much: delirium is easy to hit with 6-7 artifact creatures, he gives us another efficient beater, he's cascadable, and he lets us stack our cascades. If you have either baby Jace or Last Hope online, you can pitch stuff to the Flayer trigger and cast it that turn for some easy card advantage.
All that said, I don't think Rudy's list is ideal; 2 big Jaces with 21 lands just doesn't seem right, and I like 9 fetches over 8. I also want another Hymn, since 90% of the time, that's the card I want to re-cast with baby Jace. Here's what I'm going to try out:
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Baleful Strix
2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Will
1 Forest
3 Grim Flayer
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Shardless Agent
1 Swamp
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
Been jaming this Build (almost) from scry me a river on cockatrice:
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Baleful Strix
2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Will
1 Forest
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Shardless Agent
1 Swamp
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Dismember
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
Deck is really performing really well:
Some card choices are still debateble for me. Not sure about new Lilli I think she is higher variance whereas LotV is always decent (Combo, Miracles are the main reason I tend to swith back to 2 LotV).
I would also like to put 1 Deluge and/or the 4th Vision in the main but don#t see any space atm (maybe Dismember for Deluge)
Also I am not really sold on CLique and Life from the loam in the SB, I think Null rod will go in for one of them.
Against D&T, what do you name with Engineered Plague?
I'm pretty sure you name human.
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Is anyone of you playing Leovold? I really like this card, I think it is really strong and want to include it into my build.
In my opinion, if not turn 2 playing Leovold, it is not strong enough.
Put 1 Leovold in sideboard is a good idea maybe?
Leovold is great in this meta.
I try +1 Leovold -1 Force of Will for now.
Vs Death and Taxes is great because Rishadan Port, Plow, Manger, Flicker, Fire/Ice, Umezawa needs a target.
In add to this, Karakas need to choose (after targeting obv) among Thalia and Leovold, opening some opportunity to kill Thalia if he bounce our Leovold.
Disagree, I don't see a space for him in this deck. Your scenario sounds like magical christmisland. Most of the time he will eat a plow from d&t then we are up 1 card for 3 Mana. But maybe they just ignore him because they don't draw actual extra cards (only SofFI). GEtting to UBG is also not the easiest part and slow.
Against miracles they have terminus which does't target and Plow.
I think you would have to play him in a BUG shell without Shardlesss agent but with ponders, snapscaster and so on.
I quote MorphBerlin, on paper Leovold do a lot of interesting things,but it is not adequate to the shardless build, you have too many 3 drops with Liliana,Agent and Deluge.
As sideboard option i test for a bit the new card Lost Legacy , but is too slow against combo, is Always better to play counter such Invasive Surgery and Flusterstorm, that combined with discards are the better way to play against Combo.
I agree with you. Leovold is a good card,but for shardless is not good.
put it into bug delver is better than shardless maybe?
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