Well... Just try doing the math behind and having the Claim and a green manasource in hand and your opponent not having a counter for it. I guess the result'll be pretty self explanatory.
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
Get naturels claim : 40% (4 un the deck)
Get a green source (4 driad arbor + 4 guide) : 65%
-> could use nature's claim : 40*65= 26%
Chance the enemy don't get a counter (4 daze + 4 FOW) : 35%
-> total against a deck who dont get a counter : 9,1%...
Probablility to get a leyline if go until Mulligan 1 with 4 leyline un the deck : 83%.
Dont try to fight ligne ley (and i didn't concidere the mulligan to get a counter)
Exactly.
I guess that makes sense. I'm assuming they would leave in some counterspells to deal with Dread Return or Therapy too.
Good call. And yes, that'd be a very valid assumption. It's one of the few things they have that can prevent us from trampling them like a puny insect.
What real deck runs both countermagic, and Leyline?
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Those that exist in the minds of people who've never played a Legacy tournament in their life and haven't the slighest idea of how this deck or basic mathematics work (and hence are capable of thinking Nature's Claim is a viable plan).
Oh wait, to answer your question, none. At all.
It amuses me to no end though.
Some Tezzerator play Force and Ligneley. But only some random player who love the deck play Tezzerator.
But the result with the counter is still true agasint grafdigger's cage or Rest in piece. Since go try Nature's claim plan, you don't have Force (or your deck is not dredge anymore with 16 no-dredge cards).
So a small part of the players that play one fringe deck..?
Well, I guess we're in trouble then.
AFter running the green side myself with Dryad Arbor in the main for quite a while, I can honestly say it's not all that great compared to current options. I favour Blue FWIW.
Add to that, Chalice of the Void kills Claims. And Chalice has been getting a lot more air-time around me, dunno about you guys.
Exactly - a deck like manaless just has to take the good (lack of interaction) with the bad (no answer to certain cards)
Now in my experience, siding out some Ichorid's was just fine before they printed Prized Amalgam. Now I feel it's not a great move, as Icky & Narcomoeba are the only ways to get PA on the field.
Seeing as your very first dredge could place some PA in the yard, I want to see Icky ASAP.
How are you guys on Icky, post game1?
I've never boarded out any copies of Ichorid as of yet. They present your best plan B - death by beats. 3 damage per turn, produce tokens at the end of each.
Yeah I can only remember siding out a single Icky (and Shells) back when I was riding the Green side, but since then Fearless (Spy) or Blue (Force) means there's other things I'd rather side out than Icky. It's just so important to this deck
Siding out Ichorid is always wrong, always.
I've been goldfishing and Cockatricing Manaless a lot in between being chained to my desk for exam study, and finally got to take the deck for a spin in the recent sanctioned tournament here in Melbourne, Australia. Anyway, second with a deck people call a “gimmick”, a deck people kick me out of Cockatrice for… People should hurry up and respect it – the deck is genuinely good. I put my money with my mouth is by bringing it to this more “serious” (although small) tournament and the deck proved to be truly awesome. I fought through a lot of tough situations and hate, as well generally overwhelmed opponents who were unprepared. The brute strength of the deck is real – and it also had a lot of strength against combo with (what I believe) should be the standard blue package. I did so many things that simple discard like Unmask never could’ve done. I highly recommend it.
20 players showed up to with the room being split between fair decks (Delver, Shardless D&T) and combo decks (mainly Reanimator, S&S, two Storm players). There was a smattering of other stuff too. The list I brought was this:
Free Creatures: (19)
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
Dredgers/Discard: (16)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Phantasmagorian
Disruption: (10)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Force of Will
Acceleration: (8)
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
Ressurrection: (7)
4 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Whirlpool Rider
Sideboard: (15)
2 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Contagion
1 Unmask
Very similar to the list that Top 8ed BoM Paris. The main toss-up I had was the 3rd Nether Shadow slot, which could've gone to either a Shambling Shell or the third Chancellor. It was close between all three, and I think after this tournament I might move to the third Chancellor, but anyway.
There were 5 rounds of Swiss, cut to Top 8.
Round 1: vs. Grixis Delver
G1: I crush him. He has turn one DRS, but I have Phantasmagorian, and quickly create a monstrous army on my turn two.
-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Dread Return
-1 Bridge from Below
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
+2 Contagion
Sideboarded perhaps too heavy, with a lot of cards to ensure I could stop a turn one Deathrite. I’ve been told to sideboard lightly for this, and maybe the additional Chancellors aren’t necessary.
G2: He goes on the play. Basically the same as G1. He has a Surgical that he uses a bit too late, and he ends up choosing Dread Return. He has an Angler and Delver in play, but I get a bunch of Zombies thanks to double Bridge and some Amalgams entering. I quickly eat him up.
Round 2: vs. ANT
Game 1: Our decks both crap on us, with me whiffing on enough free creatures or Therapies, and only having some anaemic Nether Shadow beats, while he shuffles off every Ponder and bottoms every Preordain. Eventually I come to needing to hit a third creature to resurrect Chancellor for the win. Alas, I do not get there and die to Tendrils the next turn.
-2 Bridge from Below
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Dread Return
-2 Nether Shadow
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
+1 Unmask
I think cutting Flayer (-1 Flayer, +1 Dread Return) is probably a better option here, as I only want Chancellor to finish the game anyway.
Game 2: He goes on the draw. I have turn zero Chancellor, and then get some Street Wraith cycling going; he Infernals for a Cabal Ritual, and the turn after I shred his hand with a Ichorid and Cabal Therapy (discarded to a Phantasmagorian, I think) naming Cabal Ritual, of course. He has Chain of Vapor in hand that I also eventually end up Therapying away, and then I get my Chancellor in play.
Game 3: He goes on the draw. I have a pretty nutty hand – Probe, Force, Shoal, Narco, Whirlpool + some Dredgers, so we snap this up and are off to the races. He has a slow one, and I end up bringing the Zombie beats, Shoal pitching Probe to counter a Xantid Swarm and Cabal Therapying away an Empty the Warrens (I'd seen his hand off a previous missed Therapy, he Brainstormed in response to this second Therapy but I still hit), which would've made enough blockers to stop my lethal next turn - I do see a Tendrils of Agony though. I then Force his Cabal Ritual to hopefully stop his combo turn but he has a second that he'd hidden with Brainstorm and rituals into a Tendrils to bring him up to sixteen life. Luckily I have more than sixteen power of idiots next turn and win.
Round 3: vs. UB Reanimator
Game 1: Opponent keeps a sketchy one with only a Petal and Careful Study. He whiffs on land with his Reanimate and binned fatties staring at him. I bring the beats, shred his hand with Therapy (naming Reanimate).
+3 Faerie Macabre
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
+1 Unmask
-3 Nether Shadow
-2 Phantasmagorian
-3 Bridge from Below
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Dread Return
I don’t even know if cutting Flayer is correct, because he certainly is nice vs. Exhume, but my logic was if my opponent Reanimates him, I’m kind of in trouble. Then again, Chancellors are ripe targets anyway. Not sure about this.
Game 2: He goes on the play. He starts with a study binning Elesh and Griselbrand, and has a reasonable amount of lands. I Therapy him at some stage which he Dazes. He draw-gos for awhile, eventually casting a Show and Tell he topdecks. Luckily, my hand is Force of Will, Narcomoeba, Shoal x 3! I Force pitching Narco, he Dazes, and I Shoal back, winning the war. I then beat him down for the win.
Round 4: vs. BUG Delver
We’re top of Swiss. ID. I kind of wanted to play this one since it’s a favourable matchup. But anyway.
Round 5: vs. Death & taxes
Again, can ID.
End up second in the Swiss.
Quarters: vs. BURG Delver
I again encounter good friend Steve in the Top 8. This is a pretty favourable matchup, but we lose game 1.
Game 1: I keep a seven with Dredgers, a Probe and a Force. Unfortunately, he has turn one Deathrite and I need to wait to find a Wraith or Phantas to overcome it. I think a second Deathrite joins the party, along with a Delver and Snapcaster. I find the Street Wraith, but a little too late. I possibly should’ve considered Forcing the Snapcaster (prior to that, he’d only had a Deathrite staring at me), as I was starting to discard good cards for the Deathrite to eat anyway.
+2 Contagion
+2 Vengeful Pharaoh
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
-2 Bridge from Below
-1 Force of Will
-1 Dread Return
-2 Nether Shadow
Game 2: I go on the draw. I mulligan a strong seven, with Dredgers and Force, but feel I need to at least hit a Wraith or Phantas to beat inevitable turn 1 DRS. I mulligan into essentially the same hand, and work from there. I think Steve Ponders, and then doesn’t do much. I eventually bin a Dredger (Stinky) and he Surgicals it. Well. I do the same next turn but luckily my draw is a Street Wraith – because he has a second Surgical, but I cycle Wraith, getting the Dredging going and Flayer him from there.
Game 3: He goes on the draw. This game is exciting. I think I mulligan again, finding a Contagion and Force in my hand. Steve mulls deep. At one stage, he plays a Deathrite (ok, Contagion covers that) and then a Cage (!) which I Force. He only has an Underground Sea and a Wasteland, so my Dredgers are safe. He deploys a Delver which starts to beat me down, while I’m waiting to draw to hand size. Luckily, the first Dredge reveals a Pharaoh to extinguish the Delver (and keep me alive!) and then I discard some cards to Phantas – dumbly I discard a Therapy which he eats with DRS before I Contagion it. I could’ve just Contagioned it first and then discard and shredded his hand of any Bolts that would kill me (I’m on 1) if he topdecks a red source. Anyway, with his poor mana situation, I eventually make a bunch of creatures and quickly kill him.
Semis: vs. BUG Delver
Game 1: A pretty easy affair; I overpower his turn two Deathrite which he finds with a Ponder (it’s too slow) and he basically can’t do anything while Ichorids and Amalgams eat him up.
+2 Contagion
+2 Vengeful Pharaoh
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
-2 Bridge from Below
-1 Force of Will
-1 Dread Return
-2 Nether Shadow
Game 2: He goes on the play. He has a turn one Deathrite while I’ve taken a mulligan into a mediocre hand. He then lands a second and third Deathrite with a lot of mana up, while I’m discarding to handsize random junk, looking for Phantas and a Wraith to overpower these Deathrites. He eventually gets a Delver which kills me anyway.
Game 3: He goes on the play. I think I keep a hand with Wraith. He leads on turn one Delver, flips it and gets me real low as I cycle Wraith and start churning through my deck. He Surgicals away all my Narcomoebas, which is rough, but I Dredge enough to get three Ichorids, a Pharaoh a few other goodies. I misplay and discard a Bridge to hand size with a Pharaoh in my yard. I Dredge into my second Bridge and he then opts to attack to kill his Delver and exile my Bridges – but then plays a second Delver, ugh. It’s not the end of the world though, as Ickys beat him down and two Amalgams bring the beats. I’ve shredded his hand of some stuff with multiple Therapies but he topdecks Brainstorm which finds him – Cage. An Amalgam trades with his Delver and then I have one left to beat him down from nine to zero. He Darkblasts it once, giving him an extra turn. I know he has Decay in hand from Therapies… I take him to one life. If he topdecks a non-fetch land he can Decay Amalgam and win from there…His topdeck… A Misty. PHEW.
Finals: vs. BR Reanimator
Game 1: He lootings and bins some fatties, Probe him and see he can kill me next turn. Joy. He has a Thoughtseize too, but rather than use it + Reanimate, he opts to cast Animate Dead on Griselbrand to save his life total. I Force buying me one extra turn. My Dredge for turn needs to hit me a Narco and Therapy and I do not get there. He Griselbrand + Children + Tendrils me.
+3 Faerie Macabre
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
+1 Unmask
-3 Nether Shadow
-2 Phantasmagorian
-3 Bridge from Below
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Dread Return
Game 2: In this game, my opponent makes a mistake. I beat him down a little early game and he Thoughtseizes away a Shoal (which can only pitch Amalgams anyway). He eventually Exhumes a Griselbrand and I put into play… Chancellor of the Annex. He realises he screwed up, can’t combo and he goes to one life from drawing cards. I get there next turn.
Game 3: Another back and forth, he Thoughtseizes me, taking a counterspell and Time Walking me. Luckily I topdeck Faerie Macabre, and his Reanimate fizzles next turn. Phew! Dodged a bullet. He then Faithless Lootings. I draw for turn – Unmask. Now – I need to discard to hand size to get my machine going – I can bin Phantasmagorian, and then next turn, if I get one, I can pitch everything to it except my Unmask, put Phantas in my hand and then Unmask him pitching it – essentially using all my resources. Although this is the rational higher EV play, in my mind, my gut tells me to Unmask now, because my opponent seemed relatively unfazed and confidant by topdecked Faerie (surely some reaction to my lucksacking is warranted!). Although I’ll be double time walked, he’ll just be topdecking. But instinct is quelled by rational – but reading my opponent is something I should’ve considered here. He Exhumes Griselbrand next turn, I pitch Rider to my Phantasmagorian to mill a bunch of my library, so I can likely kill him next turn, but then he Tendrils me. What would’ve happened if I cast that Unmask… I don’t know. Maybe it was correct to do so immediately.
EDIT:
Takeaways:
- Pharaoh was awesome. I didn't play D&T where I know I wanted him, but he certainly shined vs. these Goyf Delver decks.
- Countermagic was awesome - really proved its worth vs. Reanimator and ANT. The blue package actually feels insane at times.
- I think I might find room for the 3rd Chancellor and free up some sideboard slots.
- I missplayed and the deck punished me at times - but when played well (blind hit Therapies, etc.) it rewarded me. Always something I love from a Magic deck.
- Mulliganing is a real skill with this deck, and something I need to get better at. I think there were times where I should've mulled, and others where I should've taken the risk. Anyway.
Congrats on the finish. Great report!
Just played some Leagues with the list posted above. 3-2 and 4-1 respectively. Annoyingly MODO didn't give me any prizes -.- Ugh.
1st League
0-2 vs. Storm
0-2 vs. Grixis Delver
2-1 vs. Eldrazi Stompy
2-0 vs. UR Delver
2-1 vs. BUG Delver
2nd League
2-0 vs. Eldrazi Stompy
2-0 vs. White Eldrazi
2-0 vs. Shardless BUG
0-2 vs. BUG Delver
2-0 vs. Storm
In the first league, Storm and Grixis ended up being a massacre, as they Probe/Therapied me into oblivion. Leyline of Sanctity would've been strong here and I might try some moving forward - especially since it protects your countermagic from discard, which is really cool. Eldrazi I beat with them whiffing on finding Leylines in one of the games. UR Delver was a cake walk. White Eldrazi was even easier, with Shoals being super powerful and Force of Will ate a Vryn Wingmare g1 which would've prevented me comboing. Shardless was, again, another cake walk. BUG Delver I lost because game 1, after defending my Troll with Wraith against his t1 Deathrite, I proceed to Dredge 6 into a Thug and then Dredge 4 into nothing. I can't get going after that, annoyingly. G2 I lose because I pitch my hand to Phantasmagorian, but the two Dredgers I have are both Imps - and he has Surgical. If they were different, I think I would've been able to keep going and get there. Ugh. I'll chalk that loss up to variance, especially the first game where I whiffed on Dredgers (or a Phantas). Otherwise the deck was a monster that easily could've 5-0ed. Against Storm Chancellor stopped him dead in his tracks early, and I had Force of Will and double Wraith and Unmask to speed through my deck, find three creatures and a DR, Unmasked myself for Chancellor and DRed it to lock up the game. Sweet!
Congratulation ChemicalBurns for your result! Yes Manaless is not a deck that everyone likes because he is complicate to understand/cheap/no-biland. But the people who don’t respect the deck loose more against him. For the side, I still think that shoal is useless most of the time and need luck to be usefull, and I want to had cards against Ad nauseam but I don’t think the white leyline give us the win.
I think you get luck against Ad Nauseam, with all the discard turn 1 and he can combo turn 1 the match up is really not for manaless dredge.
I read some one telling he don’t know when mulligan :
- if you have 3 draw in hand (gitaxiane probe or sreet wraith) you shouldn’t mulligan
-If you have one or zero is worth it to mulligan (but never go under 6). (I calculate some probability to - If you have 2, it’s a risk.
This week end I played Manaless dredge on the Eternal week end (around 250 players) I think they were 3 manaless in the tournament. I finish 5-1-3, not awesome and I stop take note in round 4 because my concentration was lower by writing the event of the game. And yesterday I play the trial (150 players) for six rounds and finish 4-2. The list is nearly the same ChemicalBurns with 2 contagion instead of the chancellor main deck.
The side is :
4 Chancellor of the annex
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 Vengefull pharaoh
2 Balustrad Spy
1 Progenitus
2 Faerie macabre
This is my report for the trial Legacy :
Round 1 VS Omnishow
Game 1: He takes the play and play preordrain, I draw and discard a golgari grave-troll. On turn 2 he play ponder and an other preordrain, I play safe and don’t use street wraith in his turn, wait for my draw and use street wraoth in my turn looking for a cabal that I don’t get. Turn 3, he play ponder, preordrain and brainstorm and I don’t know what is this deck, I don’t think about omnishow and think he play high tide. I animate 2 ichoride and try a cabal, he concede.
+4 chancellor +1 progenitus (against high tide)
- 2 Contagion -1 Bridge from below
Game 2: He takes the play. I got phantamagorian, dredger, whirlpool rider and progenitus in hand. If iit’s high tide the progenitus need to be in library but I got phantasmagoria to shuffle him so I keep. He plays a ponder, I discard a phantasmagorian. He plays show and tell on turn 2 and I discover the his deck^^ in resp I use phantasmagorian to discard 2 dredger and a cabal. He drop an old enchant which is Omniscience but worse, I drop whirlpool rider with 4 card in hand, dredge 20 cards. He concedes in my turn when the 2 ichoride and 1 neither shadow come in play.
Round 2 VS Ad Nauseam
Game 1: He starts, play gitaxian prob, then use cabal therapie my Force. I draw and pass. He play another cabal, after thinking during 2 mins he says Force again and damnit he gets the other I top deck ! And he kill me.
+4 Chancellor +2Faerie macabre
-2 Contagion -2 Neither shadow -1 bridge from below -1 phantasmagorian
Game 2: Turn 1 he cabal naming a force I don’t have (I have one faeri) and play lotus petal then 2 black ritual and ad nauseam to 3 life point. He don’t get a lotus petal so can’t start to get mana. He finishes is turn and go to 7 card in his hand, I draw and discard phantasmagorian. Turn 2 he play LED and pass… I reanimate ichorid, attack and kill him. He just fizzles :p
Game 3: He kill me turn one, black ritual into cabal therapy into a lot of cards and kill me.
Round 3 VS Stoneblade I think
Game 1: nothing relevant, he plays ponder, brainstorm, swords my amalgam and a stoneforge mystic, he can’t stop me
+3 Vengefull pharaoh
-1 Neither shadow -1Bridge -1 phantasmagorian
Game 2: He mull to 4, play a brainstorm, I discard, he pass. I try to reanimate ichoride, he play containment priest in reponse I force her, he concedes.
Round 4 VS BUG delver
I lose game 1 after he discard me with thoughtseize and play a shaman I can pass throw.
+3 Vengefull pharaoh
-1 Neither shadow -1Bridge -1 phantasmagorian
Game 2: I got a force in hand and a street wraith. He play shaman turn 1, my street wraith help and he plays 2 other shaman turn 2. I don’t force and think I get go throw by winning in my turn. I get 2 creatures on board and 2 bridge. I cabal to get 3 creatures. With the cabal I see he have nothing in hands so I dread return whirlpool rider and lose my force, dredre 4 times. He sees I can dread return and other whirlpool rider look the clock and concedes.
Game 3: He takes the draw, thoughtseize me, I draw an pass. And get some delver and tarmo. He chirurgical somethings and destroy me with his creatures. Can’t do anything thougseize make loose so much turn
Round 5 VS 4C reanimate (griselbrand + tendril of agony in the deck + the little white soldier)
His list was not the best, due to money I think.
Game 1: He mulligan to 4, turn 2 I reanimate ichoride and use 2 cabal with a bridge. His hand was destroyed so he can’t win.
+4 Chancellor +3 Vengefull pharaoh +2 Faerie macabre
-2 Contagion +3 neither shadow -1 bridge -1 phantasmagorian
Game 2: I get a faerie and a chancellor so I keep. Turn 1 he start playing mana spell and burning wish into a show and tell that I don’t expect. He drop griselbrand, I drop Chancellor. He got no drop land left so I know he can’t play card with the chancellor but he didn’t notice, draw 14 with griselbrand and play a lotus petal which was counter. He finishes his turn and discard. I reanimate ichoride and miss a cabal. After a 5min-turn he only play chrom mox. I do nothing spectacular. And after and other 5min-turn he concede. Chancellor op !
Round 6 VS BUG Delver
It was the last game and I want the win to get some TIX points so I don’t take note so it what i remember.
Game 1: He plays shaman turn1, I draw and discard. He plays another shaman I force him. He tries to exile my dredger, I recycle street wraith, dredge get a phantasmagorian, discard 3 and play my contagion on the shaman. So the two shamans was dead,easy win now. He gets nothing expect a Jace and delver 1/1.
Game 2: T1 Cage
Game 3: He gets Delver T1 and delver + shaman T2, attack with the Delver. I go to 19, than 13 on turn 3 due to two flying delver, I force (go to 12) a surgical. At my turn 3 I get ichorid, hit for 3 and reanimate Flayer and kill the shaman (I fear for my ichoride). Turn 4 with 2 flying delver I go to 6. I play my turn 4, reanimate ichorid and kill one delver with the trigger of the flayer. I attack, he go down to 5 life points. Turn 5 he attack with the delver, i got 3 LP, get nothing more and concedes
Thoughts about the deck :
I play since 4 years manaless dredge and he is really more stronger than before, enemy with good hand and some matchup aren’t winnable but he still can do result but it’s hard to win a big tournament. Win against miracle is so easy but against deck with Shaman and thoughtseize main deck it’s hard.
The MD is fixed, and I think everyone should play this 60 because it’s the best (except for the switch chancellor/contagion I’m the only one who doing it). I want to cut a neither shadow to have another contagion. Force is amazing we now know that, Vengeful pharaoh is shinning is this meta even if that don’t make you win, it buy you time against aggro deck UR Delver/D&T or infect and it’s important. The secret tech with the balustrade spy is maybe not worth it to get him in the side (whirlpool rider can do the same but you lose your hand). More work on the side need to be done. Shoal is not efficient.
I will play the CDFL (French cup legacy) in three weeks and will try to get 3 or 4 white Leyline.
I love this deck, even if I ‘m starting playing infect this one is still my little baby that I love.
I honestly don't think MD Force of Will is worth it over Chancellor of the Annex, the card is not saving the game vs combo by itself and is losing time vs Deathrite Shaman which is enemy #1. I find my deepest runs with the deck are usually the ones where i grind thru all of the Deathrite decks, win the coin flip vs Eldrazi Leylines and Miracles doesnt even draw RIP more than Force of Will ever being clutch.
I am also pretty tempted to boot the combo for Pharoah and just grind games out, it screws over a lot of the decks that the combo is there for in the first place like Show&Tell, Reanimator etc.
To rebutt this, I ended up playing against Show and Tell (1 OmniTell, 2 Sneak & Show) in my recent League and main deck Force of Will was my saving grace. I had double Force of Will g1 to fight over a Show and Tell and then won the game next turn. Furthermore, I won post-board thanks to Disrupting Shoal pitching Prized Amalgam. Force main deck really saves your ass against combo, which I feel we are otherwise an extreme dog to. And as I referenced before, hitting things that can be problematic (eg. Wingmare, Thalia etc.) that appear g1 is also very powerful. Deathrite Shaman I feel we are well equipped to deal with as-is thanks to Wraith and Phantas, though I will agree on the strength of Chancellor. I think fitting both in is feasible; it just means we have to play a bit tighter and mulligan more wisely due to the diluted amount of Dredgers. Shell is still pretty mediocre anyway.
@Final Fortune, I think just making Manaless a grind machine is fine, but we do need those fast combo wins in certain situations. The deck offers a lot of different attack plans, whether it be via grind with creatures, a combo or ripping up our opponents hand, and removing one of these I feel is unwise.
Seems like you changed your mind quite a bit since the last time this came up (see page 18 of the thread). Back in april you said pretty much the exact opposite.
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