[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Ganfar]

Mostly b/c I don't like it.

Vs. creatures, PtE is simply better. And not green, allowing for more efficient mana management (since you want to spend your green mana on creatures/GSZ).

Vs. non-creature, non-planeswalkers I just spend a bit more mana to answer it via Pridemage.

W/ 1 Pridemage and 4 PtE I run 4 virtual AD for creatures (in PtE) and 5 virtual AD for non-creature, non-planeswalkers (in 4 GSZ + 1 Pridemage).

As far as planeswalkers are concerned - the one that bugs us most costs 4 mana, so AD is no answer there either.

In this configuration I either have a more efficient AD, or an AD that can kill my opponent and form a neat loop w/ Meren for some insane value. Running Pridemage also means I have 8 outs to various lockpieces G1 (4 GSZ, 1 Pridemage, 3 P. Deed). Good luck hitting that number when running ADs w/o Pridemage.

As for PtE being counterable - when you have AD-mana open (i.e. 2), PtE has "Daze-proof". And if my opponent wants to waste a FoW (i.e. take a 2-for-1) on my 1 mana card, well, be my guest. The turn after that I'll probably drop a creature that puts his to shame (b/c if it were AD, the creature couldn't cost more than 3 mana in the first place and there's no 3 mana creature that Siege Rhino can't beat). Might that mean that I take some beats that AD would have prevented? Sure. I don't care. Your lifetotal is a resource as much as anything else, so just use it as such. Nic Fit is perfectly capable of recovering from near-death.

The only place where AD the more efficient option is where you'd GSZ -> Qasali Pridemage. Point is, during most of these MUs you have more time to take that route anyway, so it works out just fine in the end.

That is a good response.

But I would like to see a Mealstrom Pulse or Judgement in 75. I don't like any answered to Jace, The Mind other then cretures.

[Echelon]

The opportunity cost has to be compared with PTE:

- You will usually leave 1 mana open for PTE. Yes, you can spend it during your turn (which will almost never be the case with BA) but still it will cost you 1 mana.
- Against tempo, you will play it for 2, most of the time, making it worse than a PTE.
- Against the rest, you usually wait until you can take maximum profit of it. It will be usually played for 4 mana.

So what ?

At the bare minimum, it will cost you 1 mana more than PTE to get "the job done".
It is worse against multiple attacking creatures (because your opponent gets to choose) but better against some difficult ones to deal with; just remember that the battlefield gets easily clogged with Nic Fit (especially against other midrange) and one is often only attacking with 1 creature.
But if you succeed "escalating"; it just overperforms PTE.

You're basically repeating what I said, lol. Nowhere did I claim it was unplayable/horrible. I just weighed the pros and cons, that's it.

Hey folks,

after abandoning the SFM build for now, my Junk Fit list gravitates more and more towards Echelons latest list. Although not completely sure about the 4x Rhino, i think this is the way to go (at least for Junk colors). We need to go back to the roots i guess, back to what Nic Fit does best: Survive early/mid game with discard, spot removal and board-stalling blockers that are supposed to die anyway (I even count Deathrite Shaman in here, as long as he accelerates us into key cards/ end game, his job is done. For me, everything beyond that is just a nice bonus). From there on, the opponent – at least in my creature-heavy meta - has two choices: Either he overextends to close the game as fast as possible, or he slows down/ keeps cards in hand to strenghten his own end game as he probably knows what my intention is. As a Nic Fit player, I'm OK with both ways. The first scenario is mostly solved by Pornicious Deed and if we're lucky it's enough and they don't come back. The second scenario is probably more common and often the harder way, but in fact it is exactly what we want: a guaranteed end game which we are strong at, then start beatdown.
The great mayority of games that I win with Junk Fit followed the simple scheme of sacrificing Deed for 3 somewhere, which annihilates the opponents board and leaves my game-winning CMC 4 or higher stuff. Why not focus on this simple method completely, without 'the danger of cool things'?
Echelons list is nearly perfect for this strategy, and I like 'well oiled machines' when it comes to my decks. Nevertheless I opt for some changes:

- 1 Deathrite Shaman (I think two is enough for our purposes)
- 1 Scavenging Ooze (SB was his place in the past, was fine)
- 1 Courser of Kruphix (don't own one, maybe I should buy one and test it out since it often overperforms for you)
- 1-2 Siege Rhino (not sure about the right number. Maybe 4 is the way to go, but if the new green Gearhulk shines, you can cut at least one i guess)
- 1 Diabolic Intent (for those who like/ need it, keep it. I don't need the toolbox for now)

+1 Sakura Tribe Elder (replaces Deathrite and supports the overall ramp plan. I like him in his spot)
+1 Elspeth, Knight Errant (survives our mass removal and can close games really quick, plus good vs. Miracles)
+1 Pernicious Deed / Toxic Deluge (this may be too much, but I want to prioritize on destroying the opponents ambitions)
+1 Verdorous Gearhulk (needs to be tested, but he could be the beatdown creature we searched for)
+1 Tireless Tracker (this deck needs the card advantage, i fear 1 of them is not enough)

My choices are debateable, but at least in my meta ( I feel 2/3 decks are D&T, some Miracles, Combo and Eldrazi, rest Elves, Goblins, Bladedecks, Roguedecks) this seems very solid. As I said some things need to be tested (again). Echelons SB looks good, but everybody needs to tweak that on his own.

@ Echelon: I will try to squeeze in 1-2 Abrupt Decay nonetheless, testing will show. Also need to get a second Phyrexian Tower, but one will do for now. Perhaps I even cut Meren, as there were so many alternatives at her CMC and she doesn't contributes to the beatdown plan immediatly; I love her as a card, but she's more of a slow, controllish way to gain more and more card advantage.

How were the Path to Exile vs. D&T? Usually I don't like giving them extra lands for Port activations etc. Eventually going back to Swords to Plowshares for that matter..

And I'm curios how Lost Legacy performs in problematic matchups. No red needed for Slaughter Games anymore?

@ all: Potentially brewing on Junk Veteran Walkers. Nearly the same approach as above, but with more Planeswalkers that stabilze or win the game. Elspeth, Knight Errant, Garruk Relentless, Sorin Grim Nemesis, the new Nissa, Vital Force and others come to my mind. Any ideas on that? If testing shows noteworthy results, I'll let you guys know.

Cheers.

First off: Thank you for the compliment. PtE was fine vs. D&T, just be tricky about it (as always). Didn't get to give Lost Legacy a field test yet, so can't say anything about that so far. Seeing the cuts you're planning to make, I do fear you're missing on some of the intricacies of the list and are misjudging the roles some of the cards fulfill. If anyone wants, I can go over them in detail (and include how removing certain cards affects them).

That is a good response.

But I would like to see a Mealstrom Pulse or Judgement in 75. I don't like any answered to Jace, The Mind other then cretures.

Thank you. Yeah, it's a toughy. So much stuff I want to do, so few slots to do it with.

[Ganfar]

Thank you. Yeah, it's a toughy. So much stuff I want to do, so few slots to do it with.

Agree. All the cards have a role. The only card I can think to cut in main is a PtE to a Mealstrom Pulse.

Maybe take out one Lost Legacy for a Pulse in sideborad. It's not clear what is best here.

[Brael]

Both lists aim to produce a semi-lock state while racing with a swarm plan. The first list is a little more reliable but the second list is more powerful.

I will eventually return to them but I have a bunch of stuff ahead in the queue before I can look at them (after EW probably).

I like the second list but there's a few changes I would make. We're definitely thinking along the same lines of using Humans though. In my case it was more coincidental, I'm not sure about you but there's some good ones out there. I don't think Recruiter of the Guard is worth it though. I would definitely run Sin Collector over it.

I think that I would instead try to find something you can use as removal. I don't think Company is a good Legacy card. The baseline for 4 mana in this format is a 3 for 1 not a 2 for 1. You can get a 3 for 1 off of Ranger of Eos or Harmonize and neither puts the same deckbuilding restraints on you so you're able to play some actual removal, and other CA. Company means you're giving up Path, Painful Truths, Ranger, Sigarda, Top, and more. It's just not worth it when you can instead have all of the above.

Glad to see someone else trying the junk humans route though, I think there's some value to it.

[Brael]

But I would like to see a Mealstrom Pulse or Judgement in 75. I don't like any answered to Jace, The Mind other then cretures.

Sylvan Safekeeper is one of the best creature answers you can have to Jace. It completely blanks his -1 for your entire board and unlike Thrun or Sigarda, is trivial to cast.

[Ganfar]

Sylvan Safekeeper is one of the best creature answers you can have to Jace. It completely blanks his -1 for your entire board and unlike Thrun or Sigarda, is trivial to cast.

When you have a empty borad and they play Jace, it will be really hard to stop Jace. Terminus can still save Jace from cretures.

I would at least one direct answer for Jace: The mind or other big things.

[Brael]

When you have a empty borad and they play Jace, it will be really hard to stop Jace. Terminus can still save Jace from cretures.

I would at least one direct answer for Jace: The mind or other big things.

Safekeeper + Teeg, both sides can be GSZ'ed, they blank a Jace and stop a Terminus.

The best way to beat JTMS though is to have a strong card advantage engine of your own. Especially against Miracles, CA is their big weakness. This isn't a deck that gets its wins from being reactive.

[truthfulcake]

Safekeeper + Teeg, both sides can be GSZ'ed, they blank a Jace and stop a Terminus.

The best way to beat JTMS though is to have a strong card advantage engine of your own. Especially against Miracles, CA is their big weakness.

When does Teeg come in? I've only just picked up Nic Fit (but it's a deck I'm set on tweaking and adjusting until I get it more to my liking). I brought it in the other night against Stoneblade, since it turned off Batterskull and Force but I'm not sure if that's right.

[Brael]

When does Teeg come in? I've only just picked up Nic Fit (but it's a deck I'm set on tweaking and adjusting until I get it more to my liking). I brought it in the other night against Stoneblade, since it turned off Batterskull and Force but I'm not sure if that's right.

I don't run him, lots do though against Miracles. He shuts off basically their entire deck other than Swords and Counterbalance/Top.

[Zirath]

-- Off Thread --

If you want some ideas, click here.

I've written a "not so bad" primer about "Human Squad" in Legacy.

I've jammed the list during two trial events.
I ended up 4-2 on Friday and 3-2 on Sunday.

The list is up-to-date in my signature, though.

If you don't understand "French", try to translate it.
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

While I appreciate the guidance, that list is a very different direction than where I am trying to go. I am very familiar with the Humans Stompy in Vintage and I am not pursuing that because I believe that there are Nic Fit builds that don't revolve around Deed that I want to explore more.

I like the second list but there's a few changes I would make. We're definitely thinking along the same lines of using Humans though. In my case it was more coincidental, I'm not sure about you but there's some good ones out there. I don't think Recruiter of the Guard is worth it though. I would definitely run Sin Collector over it.

I think that I would instead try to find something you can use as removal. I don't think Company is a good Legacy card. The baseline for 4 mana in this format is a 3 for 1 not a 2 for 1. You can get a 3 for 1 off of Ranger of Eos or Harmonize and neither puts the same deckbuilding restraints on you so you're able to play some actual removal, and other CA. Company means you're giving up Path, Painful Truths, Ranger, Sigarda, Top, and more. It's just not worth it when you can instead have all of the above.

Glad to see someone else trying the junk humans route though, I think there's some value to it.

I have been unsure about Recruiter to begin with. He hasn't really been very impressive in general. Sin Collector is a card I wish wasn't 3 mana. It's probably too narrow. And in the context of analyzing the need for Company, it is one of the first cards we cut.

I really want Company to work (it's just a card I love) but I know your point. The main issue I've been having is either I can't get going fast enough or the lock is too fragile and get broken up before I can control the board. The issue on the other side is that a lot of those other cards don't solve the problems I have been experiencing. There is a lot of power behind putting out two lords from an empty hand.

Both of these lists were primarily theory crafted and I didn't get to test them as much as I wanted. That being said, if I were to make changes based on comments and my analysis, I would probably start here:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Sanctum Prelate

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library

3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Cavern of Souls

[Bobmans]

When does Teeg come in? I've only just picked up Nic Fit (but it's a deck I'm set on tweaking and adjusting until I get it more to my liking). I brought it in the other night against Stoneblade, since it turned off Batterskull and Force but I'm not sure if that's right.

Teeg is at its best vs Storm combo. It also works against SneakShow, Aluren, Natural Order, Belcher, MonoRedSneak, Tezzeret.
Teeg also blocks Jace, Terminus, Entreat and Nahiri, but Miracles doesn't have to hard time to remove Teeg.
I wouldn't bother to board Teeg vs FoW and Batterskull is dropped thru Teeg with SFM obviously. On top of that, the question is, will Teeg shut your own GSZ or Walker down. Against storm or other combo thats fine, but against fair decks it is not.

[Echelon]

@truthfulcake: What everybody else said. Besides, Stoneblade is a pretty good MU, why clip your own wings by disabling GSZ?

[Ganfar]

Safekeeper + Teeg, both sides can be GSZ'ed, they blank a Jace and stop a Terminus.

The best way to beat JTMS though is to have a strong card advantage engine of your own. Especially against Miracles, CA is their big weakness. This isn't a deck that gets its wins from being reactive.

Yes, you can make a set-up to stop to Jace and Terminus. They are not only cards.

Anyhow, I like at least in 75 that can take care something non-creture 4 drop.

@Bobsman: I think I have ask this before but how weel have Nissa been to you? http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rhinos-abbondanza/

[Bobmans]

Flippa has been a solid lategame card. On top of that, i really like the flavor of this planeswalker.
If all it is another angle of CA just as Tracker and Courser are.
The pro is that it can provide a 4/4 beater while walling and generating CA (Tracker does both offcourse).
The con is that the card is weak during early game.
Having 7 basics in your deck is impotant to consitently flip it when you drop the card.
Especially next to SDT this card enables several little interactions. Shuffle, filter. I even used it to turn GSZ into a double shuffle to activate SDT twice searching for a non creature answer.
The ultimate was never relevant, if flippa sticks, your probably already winning.
Flippa is a gadget, i like gadgets.
Just like Courser it does not solve problems, it simply helps getting a more solid boardstate.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G900F met Tapatalk

[Echelon]

Courser singlehandedly solves Burn.dec, you silly goose. Stops their board presence dead in its tracks and gives you valuable life.

[Ralf]

Courser singlehandedly solves Burn.dec, you silly goose. Stops their board presence dead in its tracks and gives you valuable life.

I don't think so.
Courser is unfortunately too slow compared to their standard velocity.

[Ganfar]

I don't think so.
Courser is unfortunately too slow compared to their standard velocity.

It can at least slow down the burn deck, better then other cards.

Couser are a bit better then Nissa, I think. It's better in early game and we already have cards that are good in the end good already.

[Ulysse95]

I don't think so.
Courser is unfortunately too slow compared to their standard velocity.

I don't agree, and them neither it seems..
They usually kill it ASAP, spending 2 spells or a fireblast on it.

[Echelon]

Besides, it can hit the field as early as T2.

[cherson]

I have the feeling that most of you cut painful truths from the list, correct?
is it the lost life you are struggling with? honestly speaking I have problems when to play the card.
drawing three cards is of course awesome but in the early game I have the feeling I want/have to do other things and late game the life total matters.