[Deck] Madcap Sneak Attack

[Captain Hammer]

This list is one I evolved over at the Dragon Stompy thread borrowing elements from Big Red in order to abuse Madcap Experiment. However, it's slowly evolved into something that doesn't quite fit either deck's core description. I figure it's better to separate out the discussion and take it elsewhere rather than discuss and work on the deck in a thread where it doesn't really fit.

The core premise of the deck is to lay down a massive game breaking beater on Turn 1 or 2 and either win on the spot, or within the next two turns. If this plan gets disrupted by an Aggro Control or Control deck, the deck is designed to function as a competitive midrange deck that can dodge almost all of the hate in the format and hold it's own against just about anything out there.

It functions similar to Big Red but by utilizing Madcap Experiment, it can accomplish the goal of laying down a fatty quickly more consistently and with a much lower risk of fizzling out.

// Lands
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Combustible Gearhulk
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Worldspine Wurm

// Spells
4 Seething Song
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

// Sideboard
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon

// Other Maindeckable Cards
Faithless Looting
Gamble
Chaos Warp
Pyrostatic Pillar
Blood Moon
Magus of the Moon
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan

The Desperate Rituals and Pyrostatic Pillars get sided in against fast combo decks that need to be raced. However a solid case can be made for maindecking a few Rituals.

The deck is still early and I welcome any and all suggestions to improve it. I listed some other Maindeckable cards above that have a lot of potential in the deck if we can find a way to make room for them.

The sideboard is far from final. Right now, it's just a way for me to try out some other cards to see how well they function in the deck. However, Red is full of great sideboard options that can be used to hate out problem matchups. Once a maindeck is finalized and the specific weaknesses identified, the sideboard will be tailored to address these weaknesses.

[Captain Hammer]

Reserving this post for future updates.

Wizards just spoiled the newest addition to the deck...

Combustible Gearhulk
4RR
Artifact Creature - Construct
First strike

When Combustible Gearhulk enters the battlefield, target opponent may have you draw three cards. If the player doesn't, put the top three cards of your library into your graveyard, the Combustible Gearhulk deals damage to that player equal to the total converted mana cost of those cards.
6/6


I updated the list in the op due to Combustible Gearhulk getting spoiled. Its exactly what this deck needed, a hardcastable artifact that can win the game in a single turn or atleast refill your hand. Maindeck Godo, Batterskull and Battlespheres got booted leaving 2 extra slots.

After having tried the list suggested by Cire, I still preferred the original list but definitely see the potential that the extra speed from Desperate Ritual offers so I am updating the maindeck.

Here is the updated list...


// Lands
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Combustible Gearhulk
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

// Sideboard
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Desperate Ritual
2 Worldspine Wurm

// Other Maindeckable Cards
Faithless Looting
Pyrostatic Pillar
Chaos Warp
Blood Moon
Magus of the Moon
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan

Outdated Posts: (Everything below was posted prior to Combustible Gearhulk's reveal. No Longer Relevant.)

This deck has no protection against discard. You fold to combo as well.

The protection it has against discard/removal/counterspells is redundancy. You average 2-3 cards in your opening hand that allow you to accomplish your goal of laying down an early fatty in the first two turns, and you draw into many more as the game goes on. So any control/aggro control deck is going to have an uphill battle trying to block all the various paths you have towards an early victory. They may slow you down for a couple of turns at best but most games, the deck still eventually manages to land a fatty that sticks and goes to town by turn 4-5 no matter what they do.

Combo decks aren't exactly running rampant at the moment due to all the hate out there. However, should you face a combo deck, this deck is also capable of winning on turn one fairly often when undisrupted. If you're facing a fast combo deck that doesn't maindeck Force of Will, this deck can often plop down and win outright with a turn 1/2 hasty Blightsteel game one. Game 2, cards like Pyrostatic Pillar and other hate that red has access to help further improve the combo matchup.

Edit: I would argue that the "other artifact target" should be an Imperium. Reason being is that landing anything other than blightsteel is basically a fizzle in legacy. Nothing wins the turn after like it does, and in legacy there is too much removal and fast combo and fast aggro. Instead if you "fizzle" you should land into an Imperium which prevents damage saving you from a compromising position, and buys you time to then cast another one of your spells into winning creature.

That's actually a really interesting suggestion. Thank you.

I will switch it up to the below test build over the next week to see if this alternate route is worth pursuing...


// Lands
9 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Platinum Emporium

// Spells
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

// Sideboard
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

While such a list looks promising due to it's speed, it also has a harder time recovering if the initial threat gets StPed/FoWed. The list in the OP had the added resilience of being able to hard cast several of it's game breaking threats even if the initial threat got countered or removed. This is why I am not as optimistic about it's performance as you are Cire but I will give it a try.

Alternatively, the list could play Faithless Looting or Chandra, Torch of Defiance in lieu of Desperate Ritual in order to given it a bit more resiliency. This way, it has a better chance of recovering if the first threat gets forced or removed. What do you think?

Cire, are there any changes you would suggest to this test build you inspired? What specific changes are you proposing to the above manabase to further your desire to make the deck faster/more explosive? Rite of Flame? Desperate Ritual? Pyretic Ritual? Crystal Vein? Are there any I missed?

[James718]

Reserving this post for future updates.

This deck has no protection against discard. You fold to combo as well.

[Cire]

I think going full combo on Madcap is a mistake. I would rather stick to Madcap --> Imperium.

But if you are going full combo, I think you should just man up and risk the game loss from damage. Let's say you drew 1 Blightsteel. You have 3 left in a deck with 53 cards. That means you have an estimated 18 damage in exchange for Blightsteel . . . risk going all in and trying to get it turn 1, if you don't you die, if you do you . . . you still run chance of getting STPed or burned. But still I think that speed and that risk can make a more competitive deck, since this deck is already competeting with reanimator/belcher speed wise.

[Captain Hammer]

Cire, Madcap is functionally Sneak Attack 9-12 in many cases. It's there because it greatly increases the decks consistency in being able to combo out. There is no reason to go all in on Madcap -> Blightsteel since Sneak Attack/Through the Breach -> Blightsteel are already capable of winning you the game on turn one. I would feel different if Madcap also gave Blightsteel haste like Sneak Attack and Through the Breach do. But since it doesn't, I feel the deck benefits too much from the other artifact creatures to warrant cutting them to go all in on Blightsteel. I initially started with a build with far fewer artifact creatures, 4 Worldspine Wurm and 4 Faithless Looting that also ran very well but I moved away from it due to the risk of Madcap costing you the game in builds with a significantly lower artifact count. In addition, the other artifact creatures supplemented by Madcap give the deck a great deal more redundancy making it much less likely to be shut out by discard/removal/counterspells.

That said, I would love to see what list you would propose running instead to take the deck in an even more comboesque route. If you propose a list, I will definitely try it out.

[Cire]

Well, let's see - your game plan is to land a big creature by turn 1-2, right?

Your spells costing to do that are 3RR (sneak attack plus activation), 3R (Mad Cap) and 4R (Through the Breach).

Now due to Madcap you can't run Moxes or Lotus Petals.

Now let's say you want to cast your stuff turn 2 instead of turn 1. Let's assume that your 2nd land will be a Sol Land. You still need to run around 15 Accel Cards in order to reliably cast (and activate) Sneak Attack or Cast through the breach turn 2. Mad Cap is slightly easier.

Now - since we are assuming Ancient tomb activation, and at least 1 turn of opponent taking a swing, and assuming that opponent was burn (and assuming that the opponent will burn you twice again next turn after mad cap) - you can only afford around 9 damage from Madcap. That means you need to run around 7 artifact targets (drawing 1 means you have 6 left in a deck of 53, so that's around 9 damage).

That means that at this point to run the game plan you want you need something like the following at the minimum:

9 Madcap/Breach/Sneak
9 Lands
8 SolLands
4 Emrakul
4 Blightsteel
3 Other Artifact Targets
15 Rituals/Guides
8 Other(non artifacts)

Those 8 could be more Madcap/Breach/Sneak, more lands, more artifact targets, or protection. Maybe even a lightning bolt.

Edit: additionally, I would argue that the "other artifact target" should be an Imperium. Reason being is that landing anything other than blightsteel is basically a fizzle in legacy. Nothing wins the turn after like it does, and in legacy there is too much removal and fast combo and fast aggro. Instead if you "fizzle" you should land into an Imperium which prevents damage saving you from a compromising position, and buys you time to then cast another one of your spells into winning creature.

[Captain Hammer]

Again, the deck only needs to land a turn one fatty against fast combo decks. However, fast combo decks are not running rampant at the moment and if they show up more frequently in the future, they can be hated out postboard as well.

Against nonfast combo matchup, a turn two or turn three fatty is fast enough to win you the game. The 12 Sol Lands + Simian Spirit Guide + Seething Song support a fundamental turn 2/3 pretty reliably without having to resort to any artifact mana. As a frequent player of various Stompy decks, I top decked Chrome Mox, Grim Monoliths and Mox Diamonds often enough that I am actually very pleased that this manabase makes do without them.

However Cire, if you can come up with an alternate build that you feel does a better job of abusing Madcap, and/or more consistently lands a fatty on turn 1/2, please post it. I would love to try it out.

[Cire]

Again, the deck only needs to land a turn one fatty against fast combo decks. However, fast combo decks are not running rampant at the moment and if they show up more frequently in the future, they can be hated out postboard as well.

Against nonfast combo matchup, a turn two or turn three fatty is fast enough to win you the game. The 12 Sol Lands + Simian Spirit Guide + Seething Song support a fundamental turn 2/3 pretty reliably without having to resort to any artifact mana. As a frequent player of various Stompy decks, I top decked Chrome Mox, Grim Monoliths and Mox Diamonds often enough that I am actually very pleased that this manabase functions without them.

To cast your 5 mana spells turn 2 reliably you need around 15 ritual effects in your deck - this is including Sol lands. Otherwise, the only way you can cast a sneak attack and activate it turn 2 would be drawing a seething song. The only way you can cast a through the breach is a seething song OR two sol lands and a SSG. Those are poor odds.

If you are planning to cast them turn 3 . . . then I don't think there is any hope for this deck - against Discard, Thought-Knot Seers, Force, Daze, Thalias, Wastelands, Prelates, Spell Pierce, etc. . . . I mean, you can go for it, but why at this point? Redundancy won't save you from that. Aiming for turn 3, this deck will be less consistent and the same speed as Infect, Storms and Elves.

[Captain Hammer]

Edit: I would argue that the "other artifact target" should be an Imperium. Reason being is that landing anything other than blightsteel is basically a fizzle in legacy. Nothing wins the turn after like it does, and in legacy there is too much removal and fast combo and fast aggro. Instead if you "fizzle" you should land into an Imperium which prevents damage saving you from a compromising position, and buys you time to then cast another one of your spells into winning creature.

That's actually a really interesting suggestion. Thank you.

I will switch it up to the below build temporarily to see if this alternate route is worth pursuing...


// Lands
9 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Platinum Emporium

// Spells
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

// Sideboard
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast



While such a list looks promising due to it's speed, it also has a harder time recovering if the initial threat gets StPed or FoWed. The list in the OP had the added resilience of being able to hard cast several of it's game breaking threats even if the initial threat got countered or removed. This is why I am not as optimistic about it's performance as you are Cire but I will give it a try.

Alternatively, the list could play Faithless Looting or Chandra, Torch of Defiance in lieu of Desperate Ritual in order to given it a bit more resiliency. This way, it has a better chance of recovering if the first threat gets forced or removed. What do you think?

Are there any changes you would suggest to the above test build to see if Platinum Emporium has a place in the deck?

What additional specific changes would you propose to the above manabase to further your desire to make the deck faster/more explosive? Rite of Flame in combination with Faithless Looting? Crystal Vein?

[onemancannon]

Let's ignore the whole "madcap can kill you" scenario for a minute.
blightsteel colossus doesn't necessarily win you the game.
Any one drop can block it. To be fair though, there isn't alot of played removal to deal with it even if it gets blocked. However, Blighsteel is a nonbo with TtB and SA if they have an available blocker.
Consider being on the draw with needles. The speed factor won't even matter especially if they have wasteland up.

I'd vote for Griselbrand. One D7 is sometimes enough to drop another fatty.

Basically what we're trying to do is speed up Big Red, but I'm not sure if losing lotus petal makes that even possible.

EDIT WITH SILLY THOUGHT: interesting interaction with platinum angel and death's shadow. Madcap>angel>shadow= ridiculously large shadow. It's probably more of a casual thought but i still think its cute.

[Gheizen64]

Let's ignore the whole "madcap can kill you" scenario for a minute.
blightsteel colossus doesn't necessarily win you the game.
Any one drop can block it. To be fair though, there isn't alot of played removal to deal with it even if it gets blocked. However, Blighsteel is a nonbo with TtB and SA if they have an available blocker.
Consider being on the draw with needles. The speed factor won't even matter especially if they have wasteland up.

I'd vote for Griselbrand. One D7 is sometimes enough to drop another fatty.

Basically what we're trying to do is speed up Big Red, but I'm not sure if losing lotus petal makes that even possible.

EDIT WITH SILLY THOUGHT: interesting interaction with platinum angel and death's shadow. Madcap>angel>shadow= ridiculously large shadow. It's probably more of a casual thought but i still think its cute.

Lotus petal is easily replaceable by ESG. The problems are others. Generally speaking, this is slightly more resilient but it doesn't have the oops i win factor of Chalice T1 or griselbrand T2. T2 Myr Battlesphere is good but nowhere as game ending as grizzly is, especially without chalice protection.

[onemancannon]

Lotus petal is easily replaceable by ESG. The problems are others. Generally speaking, this is slightly more resilient but it doesn't have the oops i win factor of Chalice T1 or griselbrand T2. T2 Myr Battlesphere is good but nowhere as game ending as grizzly is, especially without chalice protection.

Lotus Petal is not replaceable with Elvish Spirit Guide
Because it makes and not ! This problem gets worse when your jamming 8 Sol lands and considering running crystal vein

The problem here, is we're trying to be faster than Big Red without the same acceleration (And the same hate, which you eluded to).

Just goldfishing a few presented lists with/without ESG, the t1/2 consistency is not there and I'm beginning to feel that if Madcap is to find a competitive home, it is not here.

[Captain Hammer]

Wizards just spoiled the newest addition to the deck...

Combustible Gearhulk
4RR
Artifact Creature - Construct
First strike

When Combustible Gearhulk enters the battlefield, target opponent may have you draw three cards. If the player doesn't, put the top three cards of your library into your graveyard, the Combustible Gearhulk deals damage to that player equal to the total converted mana cost of those cards.
6/6


I updated the list in the op due to Combustible Gearhulk getting spoiled. Its exactly what this deck needed, a hardcastable artifact that can win the game in a single turn or atleast refill your hand. Maindeck Godo, Batterskull and Battlespheres got booted leaving 2 extra slots.

After having tried the list suggested by Cire, I still preferred the original list but definitely see the potential that the extra speed from Desperate Ritual offers so I am updating the maindeck.

Here is the updated list...


// Lands
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Combustible Gearhulk
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

// Sideboard
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Desperate Ritual
2 Worldspine Wurm

// Other Maindeckable Cards
Faithless Looting
Pyrostatic Pillar
Chaos Warp
Blood Moon
Magus of the Moon
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan

[lost_ronin_soul]

I think the list sorely needs platnium angel. You can mad cap a billion damage but if you run into playnium angel, the state based effects of losing the game won't be checked until after the resolution of the spell. Certain decks also have trouble with platnium angel, like grixis Delver.

[korstructure]

Nah, Platinum Angel/Emperion just seem like "Lose Less" cards. We want to win. And they're bad with Through the Breach/Sneak Attack.

As a philosophy, I think this deck should focus on targets that win the game. If there aren't enough (doubtful), then the Platinums could be reasonable inclusions.

Possibly(?) worth the time to test - but my bet is that these are not the sorely needed targets we're looking for! Emperion is sweet against Burn and UR Delver, though - could be SB material.

I think the list sorely needs platnium angel. You can mad cap a billion damage but if you run into playnium angel, the state based effects of losing the game won't be checked until after the resolution of the spell. Certain decks also have trouble with platnium angel, like grixis Delver.

[Cave]

EDIT: Wait. Horrible content deleted. Should have paid more attention to the new card's text.

[Captain Hammer]

Nah, Platinum Angel/Emperion just seem like "Lose Less" cards. We want to win. And they're bad with Through the Breach/Sneak Attack.

As a philosophy, I think this deck should focus on targets that win the game. If there aren't enough (doubtful), then the Platinums could be reasonable inclusions.

Possibly(?) worth the time to test - but my bet is that these are not the sorely needed targets we're looking for! Emperion is sweet against Burn and UR Delver, though - could be SB material.

I agree. It already has 12 targets which is more than sufficient in my experience. You take 4-5 damage on average from Madcap to get something that will either win the game outright, or swings for 6 damage while either gaining you 6 life, or drawing you 3 cards.

[Fallen_Empire]

This is my current list:


// Lands
12 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Inferno Titan
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Enchantments
4 Sneak Attack
3 Blood Moon

// Spells
4 Gamble
4 Madcap Experiment
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Seething Song
3 Desperate Ritual


-- Sideboard --
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Noxious Revival
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Chaos Warp
SB: 2 Pyromancy
SB: 2 Ali from Cairo
SB: 1 Desperate Ritual
SB: 2 Faithless Looting


This deck has me very excited, go big or go home right? :)

[somethingdotdotdot]

This is my current list:


// Lands
12 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Inferno Titan
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Enchantments
4 Sneak Attack
3 Blood Moon

// Spells
4 Gamble
4 Madcap Experiment
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Seething Song
3 Desperate Ritual


-- Sideboard --
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Noxious Revival
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Chaos Warp
SB: 2 Pyromancy
SB: 2 Ali from Cairo
SB: 1 Desperate Ritual
SB: 2 Faithless Looting


This deck has me very excited, go big or go home right? :)

I am super confused. Casting madcap in this list is literally just an autowin for your opponent.

[Fallen_Empire]

I am super confused. Casting madcap in this list is literally just an autowin for your opponent.

The only artifacts in the deck are 8 fatties. I'm taking a gamble I will hit before I run out of life. If I don't draw Madcap in the opening hand and I have the mana I use Gamble to search for it. Not even wasting my time trying to sideboard game 2 against counters I play them main board. This deck goes off it is faster than Big Red 100% but more risky and more fun.